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Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Shrimp

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Jun 7, 2019
Messages
1,059
By playtesting I don't really mean testing for "balance", which I agree isn't that important at higher difficulties, but just testing to make sure that the extra monsters don't get stuck or otherwise spazz out because the area wasn't originally designed for that many creatures.

Fair enough, but once again, on a difficulty setting 0,5% of your playerbase is gonna play let alone complete, you can probably get away with that stuff being a bit wonky on release.
I started thinking about how to regulate difficulty in these sort of games and I thought I'd ask people here a question:

What are the base elements of difficulty in these games that can be adjusted on an encounter by encounter basis? Number of enemies; substituting enemies; enemies stats and abilities (hit points, immunities, spells available, etc.); their AI behavior; changing environmental conditions; placement of enemies... what else?

I ask because I was trying to figure out how difficult it would be for the developers to adjust that sort of stuff on a per-encounter basis at different difficulty settings.
More or less anything that's not a global change that affects the entire game (for instance just increasing all health and damage values by a certain percentage) will require some level of tinkering with every single encounter that has to be changed.
The severity of these changes will come down to how willing they are to allocate time and resource on this. Considering difficult combat encounters isn't exactly what the game is being advertised for, I personally can't imagine they'd spend too much time tailoring every single encounter, but I guess we'll see once the game is out.
 

Frozen

Arcane
Joined
Jan 1, 2014
Messages
8,340
Wow this looks so lame like a complete juvenile shit for 12yos from 30y ago.

Swen should direct that new shitty D&D movie coming out soon, would not see a difference.
 

Maculo

Arcane
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Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,548
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
I enjoy the the concept of Great Old One warlock subclass, but if I am reading correctly, the telepathy/mind reading niche is essentially the tadpole mechanic. Not sure how you make the subclass stand out then. Automatic access to Detect Thoughts and Dominate Mind?

As for the difficulty discussion, unless I misunderstand the way the mobs work, couldn’t Larion just increase the level of the critters (more spells, more abilities, and HP)?
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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By playtesting I don't really mean testing for "balance", which I agree isn't that important at higher difficulties, but just testing to make sure that the extra monsters don't get stuck or otherwise spazz out because the area wasn't originally designed for that many creatures.

Fair enough, but once again, on a difficulty setting 0,5% of your playerbase is gonna play let alone complete, you can probably get away with that stuff being a bit wonky on release.
I started thinking about how to regulate difficulty in these sort of games and I thought I'd ask people here a question:

What are the base elements of difficulty in these games that can be adjusted on an encounter by encounter basis? Number of enemies; substituting enemies; enemies stats and abilities (hit points, immunities, spells available, etc.); their AI behavior; changing environmental conditions; placement of enemies... what else?

I ask because I was trying to figure out how difficult it would be for the developers to adjust that sort of stuff on a per-encounter basis at different difficulty settings.
More or less anything that's not a global change that affects the entire game (for instance just increasing all health and damage values by a certain percentage) will require some level of tinkering with every single encounter that has to be changed.
The severity of these changes will come down to how willing they are to allocate time and resource on this. Considering difficult combat encounters isn't exactly what the game is being advertised for, I personally can't imagine they'd spend too much time tailoring every single encounter, but I guess we'll see once the game is out.

You guys are making it seem way harder than it is. Multiple RPGs released the last couple of years use additional monsters per encounter to tune - best example being Pillars 1+2.
 
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Shrimp

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 7, 2019
Messages
1,059
By playtesting I don't really mean testing for "balance", which I agree isn't that important at higher difficulties, but just testing to make sure that the extra monsters don't get stuck or otherwise spazz out because the area wasn't originally designed for that many creatures.

Fair enough, but once again, on a difficulty setting 0,5% of your playerbase is gonna play let alone complete, you can probably get away with that stuff being a bit wonky on release.
I started thinking about how to regulate difficulty in these sort of games and I thought I'd ask people here a question:

What are the base elements of difficulty in these games that can be adjusted on an encounter by encounter basis? Number of enemies; substituting enemies; enemies stats and abilities (hit points, immunities, spells available, etc.); their AI behavior; changing environmental conditions; placement of enemies... what else?

I ask because I was trying to figure out how difficult it would be for the developers to adjust that sort of stuff on a per-encounter basis at different difficulty settings.
More or less anything that's not a global change that affects the entire game (for instance just increasing all health and damage values by a certain percentage) will require some level of tinkering with every single encounter that has to be changed.
The severity of these changes will come down to how willing they are to allocate time and resource on this. Considering difficult combat encounters isn't exactly what the game is being advertised for, I personally can't imagine they'd spend too much time tailoring every single encounter, but I guess we'll see once the game is out.

You guys are making it seem way harder than it is. Multiple RPGs released the last couple of years use additional monsters per encounter to tune - best example being Pliars 1+2.
Personally I'm just trying to keep my expectations in check since I simply can't imagine that handcrafting and manually tuning the encounters is something they prioritise at all.
When D:OS1 got its enhanced edition in 2015 the original hard mode setting (which was just +health/damage to enemies) was replaced with a new difficulty mode called Tactician which made some major changes to most encounters in the game. Encounters had additional enemies, enemies had additional spells, boss fights frequently had an enemy (either the boss itself or a nearby totem) providing beneficial effects to the enemies you were facing.
I was one of the people who were looking forward to D:OS2 getting the same difficulty option in its release, but that game's tactician mode was primarily just a +50% health and damage increase to all encounters. There were a handful of encounters that received some alterations, but for the most part it was just a stat increase across the board.
Further more, D:OS2's normal difficulty setting must apparently already have been by them as being too difficult, because when they released the enhanced version of that game one or two years later they added a games journalist difficulty setting that was even easier than the already existing easy mode.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is I just simply don't think appeasing the combatfags is their primary concern when implementing difficulty options.
Their focus is definitely on the narrative and story so I just don't think they'll want to allocate too much time and resources to ensuring there will be major differences between the various difficulty settings once the game's released. I imagine they'll take a free-form approach and ultimately leave it up to the players to decide whether they want to face the enemy directly or make use of various encounter related gimmicks since both options will exist across all difficulty settings. I only played BG3's early access version when it came out so my memory's a bit blurry, but one encounter I do remember presenting you with this option was a fight against a spider queen. The encounter takes place on top of some cliffs covered in cobwebs, so the player has plenty of opportunities to knock the spider down and inflict heavy fall damage to it. If the player for various reasons wishes not to do this the encounter still allows you to just fight it directly without making use of the environment.
To me it seems like designing encounters in this way would be an easier way for them to leave the difficulty choices in the hands of the player. Furthermore they would not need to spend time developing changes (no matter how miniscule they might be) to a game mode only a fraction of the players will even use.

I hope I end up being proven wrong, but personally I just can't imagine there will be too many adjustments.
 

Maxie

Wholesome Chungus
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I can confidently say that I will never really enjoy this game after playing KotC and KotC2. Combat in this feels like soft kitten playtime compared to the assrape nightmare that KotC2 was on release.
when your game is assrape enough to allow only a handful of cheese tactics to proceed, should we consider it an rpg at all? there's little choice in party building, it's just a puzzle game
 

hivemind

Cipher
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Pretty Princess
Joined
Feb 6, 2019
Messages
2,386
anyone who dislikes this game hates RPGs

simple as

Sven has tamed his environmental damage gimmick urges and emerges from the caves of divinity as the proverbial Vault Dweller to bring prosperity to the wasteland that is the RPG games genre.
 

CodexTotalWar

Learned
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Messages
121
You guys are making it seem way harder than it is. Multiple RPGs released the last couple of years use additional monsters per encounter to tune - best example being Pillars 1+2.
To be fair, Pillars still also relied heavily on stat buffs on higher difficulties. Yes they added monsters (compared to base difficulty), but PoTD in Pillars 2 gives enemies +25% health, +15 accuracy, +15 all defenses (+15 deflection, +15 fortitude, etc.), +2 armor, and +2 penetration for example. Armor/PEN are particularly huge in that system. Veteran also gives buff but smaller. In general, I think as a minimum you want to do a bit of both. Simply adding monsters will cause players to flavor AoE spells/effects, whereas just relying on inflating stats often requires you to increase the numbers so much that you start restricting many character/ability options.

One potential easy solution to spice things up for high difficulty in BG3 is simply just to even the playing field between player and monster. I.e. remove the Death Saves mechanic from 5E (aka Yoyo healing).
Right now, every fight you go into, it's highly asymmetrical and the player has a HUGE advantage. The player party is actually extremely hard to kill, since they don't just die when going to 0, and can easily get back up. They're almost like 4 heads of a hydra that you have to sever all at once.

On top of health buffs, DOS2 did give certain enemies additional immunities/abilities, which I do hope they bring back for higher difficulties in BG3.
For example, in tactician mode, certain Act 2 enemies gain various auras that did change up the dynamics of the fight. I.e. Executor Ninyan gets a perma evasive aura (90% dodge). The Voidwoken underneath the Driftwood fishery gains fire immunity, etc.
So this does make me hopeful that we'll see more than just HP increases.
 
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Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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Copenhagen
You guys are making it seem way harder than it is. Multiple RPGs released the last couple of years use additional monsters per encounter to tune - best example being Pillars 1+2.
To be fair, Pillars still also relied heavily on stat buffs on higher difficulties.

I never claimed Pillars didn't use stat buffs, I just said it added enemies - which according to you guys is very strenuous on development. And it is hardly the only game to do so these last few years.
 

rojay

Scholar
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Messages
373
When D:OS1 got its enhanced edition in 2015 the original hard mode setting (which was just +health/damage to enemies) was replaced with a new difficulty mode called Tactician which made some major changes to most encounters in the game. Encounters had additional enemies, enemies had additional spells, boss fights frequently had an enemy (either the boss itself or a nearby totem) providing beneficial effects to the enemies you were facing.
More or less anything that's not a global change that affects the entire game (for instance just increasing all health and damage values by a certain percentage) will require some level of tinkering with every single encounter that has to be changed.
The severity of these changes will come down to how willing they are to allocate time and resource on this. Considering difficult combat encounters isn't exactly what the game is being advertised for, I personally can't imagine they'd spend too much time tailoring every single encounter, but I guess we'll see once the game is out.
Do you know how they did it mechanically in D:OS1? I mean, did they have the sort of user-friendly interface in the engine that allowed level designers to go into each encounter separately and adjust things like available spells, abilities and weapons for individual enemies and a way to tweak AI behavior that makes use of those things?

Because that would make the whole process a lot easier, I'd think, but I have never designed a computer game and I don't know what the interface options are.
 

Delterius

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Dec 12, 2012
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Entre a serra e o mar.
I enjoy the the concept of Great Old One warlock subclass, but if I am reading correctly, the telepathy/mind reading niche is essentially the tadpole mechanic. Not sure how you make the subclass stand out then.
Seems like the key issue with warlocks is gonna be that there's a warlock guy in your party and he's got extremely customized content with his patron, but you don't. It's kinda like how in Shadowrun your shaman companions have a super special relationship with their totems and you're just a guy by comparison.
 

Maculo

Arcane
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Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,548
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
I enjoy the the concept of Great Old One warlock subclass, but if I am reading correctly, the telepathy/mind reading niche is essentially the tadpole mechanic. Not sure how you make the subclass stand out then.
Seems like the key issue with warlocks is gonna be that there's a warlock guy in your party and he's got extremely customized content with his patron, but you don't. It's kinda like how in Shadowrun your shaman companions have a super special relationship with their totems and you're just a guy by comparison.
I have never used Wyll before. I did read a rumor on /vg that there is more planned for custom warlock, specifically some surprise about the patron, but it has to be taken with a grain of salt. Further, there is a game path where the Absolute can supplant your patron in part.

While not warlock specific, I do like the easy access to Detect Thoughts, Disguise Self, and friends. Apparently, you can use the drow disguise to trick the goblins (hope to try this soon). I have skipped some good combat spells, but Shadowheart’s create water spell + Gale’s chromatic orb (electricity) seems to make up for it.
 

Rhobar121

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
Messages
1,230
I enjoy the the concept of Great Old One warlock subclass, but if I am reading correctly, the telepathy/mind reading niche is essentially the tadpole mechanic. Not sure how you make the subclass stand out then.
Seems like the key issue with warlocks is gonna be that there's a warlock guy in your party and he's got extremely customized content with his patron, but you don't. It's kinda like how in Shadowrun your shaman companions have a super special relationship with their totems and you're just a guy by comparison.
Predefined vs custom character.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
I enjoy the the concept of Great Old One warlock subclass, but if I am reading correctly, the telepathy/mind reading niche is essentially the tadpole mechanic. Not sure how you make the subclass stand out then.
Seems like the key issue with warlocks is gonna be that there's a warlock guy in your party and he's got extremely customized content with his patron, but you don't. It's kinda like how in Shadowrun your shaman companions have a super special relationship with their totems and you're just a guy by comparison.
Predefined vs custom character.
Eh, from what I've seen this game is ridiculous with its reactivity. There's three types of warlocks at most, and currently two. If Larian had the time they'd implement a little story arc for all three of them. Could even coast off Wyl's.
 

Rhobar121

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
Messages
1,230
I enjoy the the concept of Great Old One warlock subclass, but if I am reading correctly, the telepathy/mind reading niche is essentially the tadpole mechanic. Not sure how you make the subclass stand out then.
Seems like the key issue with warlocks is gonna be that there's a warlock guy in your party and he's got extremely customized content with his patron, but you don't. It's kinda like how in Shadowrun your shaman companions have a super special relationship with their totems and you're just a guy by comparison.
Predefined vs custom character.
Eh, from what I've seen this game is ridiculous with its reactivity. There's three types of warlocks at most, and currently two. If Larian had the time they'd implement a little story arc for all three of them. Could even coast off Wyl's.
They have to stop somewhere or the game won't come out until 2030 or it will end up in a complete mess.
 

Delterius

Arcane
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Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
I enjoy the the concept of Great Old One warlock subclass, but if I am reading correctly, the telepathy/mind reading niche is essentially the tadpole mechanic. Not sure how you make the subclass stand out then.
Seems like the key issue with warlocks is gonna be that there's a warlock guy in your party and he's got extremely customized content with his patron, but you don't. It's kinda like how in Shadowrun your shaman companions have a super special relationship with their totems and you're just a guy by comparison.
Predefined vs custom character.
Eh, from what I've seen this game is ridiculous with its reactivity. There's three types of warlocks at most, and currently two. If Larian had the time they'd implement a little story arc for all three of them. Could even coast off Wyl's.
They have to stop somewhere or the game won't come out until 2030 or it will end up in a complete mess.
Pretty much. Even Larian has to stop adding C&C at some point. Of course the problem isn't that your character is custom. Dragon Age had Origins, Wrath had mythic paths. BG3 could have a convo with your patron, the reason it doesn't is more about manhours than the nature of the characters involved. That said I'd imagine there's some reactivity for the warlock patrons here and there. It just won't be on the level of a companion's quests.

Given that you can actually play as Astarion and such, I wonder if you can run a custom version of Wyl and run his quests as your own.
 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,484
Some of the encounters on the initial ea release were decent to good, in my opinion. In that, positioning or enemy capability was at least factored in to the setup. First minotaur encounter comes to mind, as at that time, was setup to be a challenge with their positioning at a choke point and using charge out of the darkness if you stayed bunched up.

I recently checked out the paladin patch build however and sadly every encounter that I found to originally have a good setup or otherwise some kind of intentional tactical challenge has been reworked to be absolutely piss easy. Now, in that case, the minotaurs are just there in an open area and you can see them in advance because of the lighting changes and can slap them around any way you want in advance. Decline.

I wish Pierre was the combat designer for this game as at the moment, it's more like playing the Sims than anything really.

IMO Larian doesn't really do hard difficulty. The closest they used to get was allowing you to do things out of order and run into higher difficulty purely through level differences, but... well, I remember when DOS1 enhanced edition came out I played it on the Honor permadeath/autosave mode which is as far as I'm aware the hardest they've ever made a game before or since, and was one of if not the first person to beat the game on that mode, and in my experience almost no fights were actually challenging, what difficulty/danger existed was purely of the "artificial" kind of instant death from magma + enemy teleports.
 

Takamori

Learned
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Apr 17, 2020
Messages
878
Booted BG3 just to see the current state of the game and I have this odd feeling that much hasn't changed? Like graphics ,movies and meaningless shit to impress consoomers doesnt matter for me, they didn't include much from the supplemental materials and the new class additions feels barebones, for example as paladins not being to choose a deity for their roleplay ?
Visually the character creation pretty much the same with the same template faces where you can dye your weird AI generated creature with funky colors this time. No other options like race variants or choosing equipment to at least give some flavor to your character background.
Game is releasing in august but I see too many skeletons and not much meat around me. Compared to DoS2 at least I felt they made their presentation pretty robust in terms of content and character creation.

Companions I just plan to eject them at the first possible chance and create a custom character even if I'm losing story content from, I think I never met a so unlikable line up of character in my life.
 

polo

Magister
Joined
Jul 8, 2014
Messages
1,737
I tried it for a few hours recently after like 2 years and i tought it was way more polished but the content still felt lackluster as you say. Im not sure how are they releasing the full game in august.
 
Joined
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Having a very detailed character generator, aesthetically speaking, is a must for rpg fans of today. I've seen people avoiding games because they don't have enough options to change the characters' appearances. I guess part of Larian's idea was to give us a chunk of content and iterate on it as they went along, trying this or that thing. They are using agile developing methods iirc, which might explain why it has been done this way. What they want to test are the interactions people have with the game's systems and mechanics, to see what they'd leave or discard in future stages of the game, which are probably more or less done at this point. I am still wondering if they're raising the level cap because we're halfway through it and not even a third into the game, content wise. If it were left to me I'd raise it up to 15, just a bit before you get to experiment with premium classes I guess. That was the cap that people had by the end of BG2 iirc.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
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Having a very detailed character generator, aesthetically speaking, is a must for rpg fans of today. I've seen people avoiding games because they don't have enough options to change the characters' appearances. I guess part of Larian's idea was to give us a chunk of content and iterate on it as they went along, trying this or that thing. They are using agile developing methods iirc, which might explain why it has been done this way. What they want to test are the interactions people have with the game's systems and mechanics, to see what they'd leave or discard in future stages of the game, which are probably more or less done at this point. I am still wondering if they're raising the level cap because we're halfway through it and not even a third into the game, content wise. If it were left to me I'd raise it up to 15, just a bit before you get to experiment with premium classes I guess. That was the cap that people had by the end of BG2 iirc.
Allowing full body customization was a mistake. It's how you allow degenerate tranny shit to control and influence your RPGs.
 

Turn_BASED

Educated
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Jul 2, 2022
Messages
225
Having a very detailed character generator, aesthetically speaking, is a must for rpg fans of today. I've seen people avoiding games because they don't have enough options to change the characters' appearances. I guess part of Larian's idea was to give us a chunk of content and iterate on it as they went along, trying this or that thing. They are using agile developing methods iirc, which might explain why it has been done this way. What they want to test are the interactions people have with the game's systems and mechanics, to see what they'd leave or discard in future stages of the game, which are probably more or less done at this point. I am still wondering if they're raising the level cap because we're halfway through it and not even a third into the game, content wise. If it were left to me I'd raise it up to 15, just a bit before you get to experiment with premium classes I guess. That was the cap that people had by the end of BG2 iirc.
Allowing full body customization was a mistake. It's how you allow degenerate tranny shit to control and influence your RPGs.
Skin: White
Hair: Blonde
Unequip boots
Boob slider to the max
Ass slider to the max
Dick
slider to the max

7dzprz.jpg
 

Drakortha

Liturgist
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Terra Australis
Booted BG3 just to see the current state of the game and I have this odd feeling that much hasn't changed?
I tried it for a few hours recently after like 2 years and i tought it was way more polished but the content still felt lackluster as you say. Im not sure how are they releasing the full game in august.

You get what you paid for, and you all already paid out the ass to get early access to this slop. Now CONSUME!!!

$70 for early access because you just had to have the latest new thing in your Steam library. You cretins are the reason Larian had no intention to ever add good shit like Day / Night cycles. They already learned from studies that most "gamers" don't give a flying fuck about quality or innovation, they just want the latest thing, no matter how regressive or derivative it is.

But hey, don't shoot the messenger. I didn't pay for this shit, or anything else since 2019 for that matter. It's never too late to stop supporting these horrible games.
 
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