Arcanum Arcanum Rebalance Mod

[Shadenuat]

it's really easy to get high MA really fast

Can this formula be changed?

You're breaking your own rule of following Arcanum game logic here.

I'm okay with bending rules for balance sakes, while you just break them.

Secondly, you are tragically mistaken here on the power of casters in the game.
Maybe give me a bit more credit.

You are talking from heavy powergaming & metagaming perspective again. "Well if you max DEX, and do altar quest, and steal shit from Tulla, and do Tulla quest, and dance around monster for 20 turns, you might bring my cool monster who doesn't have anything of value from middle-game down". Things which seem natural to you would not be for every player.
And I've read the Readme and seen the tables. I did not pay attention to everything, because I don't think player should require to do that playing a "rebalancing" mod for a game he already knows well enough. Apparently that is not true for your mod, which also changes/cuts/adds a ton of stuff and often doesn't make sense for anyone, like with techie recipes.

math

What about surviving monsters and bosses attacks? What, are we looking at a build which can outkite any creature with 20 dex here? Monsters will still burn through your HP even in protective forms, so you should heal yourself and preserve buffs for ~20 turns.

Your theory still doesn't solve the fact that player has to clickity click hundred times to bring down anything. Why can't mid-end spells like Fireball, Lightning bolt and so on have more damage and be more expensive to spare the player from monotonous drudgery of clicking through shit? If it's a DPS thing, I don't get it.

even if you have to live with 74 good spells instead of 80

Sorry I just won't agree with that, as well as about schematics. I can't stand when stuff intended to be in the game by developers gets cut out, even if it's about "balance". Have to agree to disagree as they say. And I am sure some people would also think that way when playing your mod.

 

[RK47]

You can fix all that problem Shadenuat by not installing the mod.
This isn't your mod you know. Check your privilege.

 

[Shadenuat]

You want to steal me from Leonidus so much RK47? I am a free emotional russian guy, I don't belong to you. At least not as long as you are so mean to Fyuria.

 

[RK47]

...I loved your grandmother, Thoma.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

i need an overpowered mod which won't totally disrupt balance but will make the endless unending fights bearable: would this mod make the trick if i go for summoning to complement any kind of toon?

 

[oscar]

I'll likely give this a whirl in a few more updates, I do like the sound of Arcanum with combat that's not a complete walkover.

 

[Leonidus]

i need an overpowered mod which won't totally disrupt balance but will make the endless unending fights bearable: would this mod make the trick if i go for summoning to complement any kind of toon?

Isn't overpowered the opposite of balanced? If you mean you want to be overpowered then this mod isn't for you, it makes monsters harder. It's not a hard type mod by any stretch, just makes Arcanum not completely ridiculously easy you see.

Update probably isn't coming for a while. Honestly if I could never finish the 2.0 version I would still feel great about this one, it makes the game 90% balanced (compared to 10% before). Notice that shadenaut's complaints are mostly perfectionist/purist in nature, 74 good spells is worse than 80 old bad ones, maybe 10-15 tech recipes changed to include components he doesn't agree with, completely avoidable bosses which give late game parties something to do is heresy, etc. The vast majority of the game is so infinitely better than regular stupid Arcanum. He keeps saying things like I changed the entire game to make my own personal version of Arcanum when it's just the opposite, I changed the nature of things only when I had to for important balance reasons, (that's actually the most feedback I get in email about how the game still carries the same feel). It would take so many pages to unpack all of his bad arguments though, I wonder if anyone would really care. They just multiply after each post regardless.

But I suppose it's my fault for assuming melee would go for dex and str, and gunslingers would go for dex and perception. Apparantly only powergamers should play this mod because your character will only do very well in combat if you want him to. That's different from the nonsense ease with which any character could fly through Arcanum, therefore it's blasphemy and is bad, right guys? That's the lesson I just can't learn, I suppose.

Read the readme, play the game, you guys will be just fine. Worse comes to worse, there's an extreme amount of documentation for answers (weapon chart showing avg DPS, spell chart with DPS/efficiency/notes, etc).

 

[Shadenuat]

all of his bad arguments though, I wonder if anyone would really care. They just multiply after each post regardless

Well that's because I continued to play your mod for some time, even going as far as finishing the game with it

I do like the sound of Arcanum with combat that's not a complete walkover

One might think he wishes for harder monsters in Arcanum, but then after a dungeon or two, which you finished with your infinite health/mana/bullets, you start to realize that it's not over; that you are going through Arcanum, game almost exclusively populated by hordes of melee enemies who act same in combat, just now those would have more health, damage and damage resistance.
You want? No problem. But not my cup of tea.

 

[Leonidus]

That's too bad. Such things are out of place and break immersion like the car in carcanum. Together with the fact that combat shouldn't be important at all (btw, can a pacifist beat your game with your mod? can a no-reload run be completed?) these kind of mods are a total waste of time IMO.

Gaseous form, invisibility, and mind control spells are still in the game, which were pretty essential to pacifist runs from what I recall. The tragedy is a true pacifist run is impossible in Arcanum because the kerghan castle of the void will not open until the two guardians by the door are killed. There was a post about that in the terra-arcanum forum. I would be surprised by a no-reload run, because the difficulty was increased and a few monsters will be surprisingly lethal.

Shadenaut what I mean about your arguments is because of the way you argue. After rebuttal you often change the subject to some more broad criticism or propose a brand new one instead, which then has to be dealt with.

When I said it was good that you finally admitted you were wrong, you backtracked immediately.

I certainly think this will turn out ok because of something unusual which Shadenaut just did: admitted when he was wrong. I will gladly return the favor.

I was speaking from perspective of beginning-to-mid game, which you should have taken as is. You know all the formulas and numbers, but I don't, I just give an opinion on how game plays with mod, that's it.

When you criticized mages vs bosses, the first thing I said was that it's ok to use more than just 1 character to kill a boss, and proved you don't need anything close to a min/maxed damage mage to pull off what you said was impossible. Your response was to say 'well it would take a long time anyway' and I was just 'designing the game for powergaming'. This is the argument you made, after I said specifically you don't need to rely on just one character to bring down a huge boss, which would obviously both make the fight much faster and not force the development of one extreme superhero PC.

You are talking from heavy powergaming & metagaming perspective again.

Your theory still doesn't solve the fact that player has to clickity click hundred times to bring down anything.

Sometimes it seemed more like you were just kind of constantly searching for any reason. Like you were reacting emotionally just to the fact that I changed the game you're attached to or something. I don't know. And look, that's ok. A lot of people really love this game, myself included. It's just a god damn masterpiece. But the number one reason people don't like Arcanum is the combat, and I balanced it, the only one to do it properly for over ten years.

And at the same time, the number one thing Arcanum players like is everything except the combat. Most people who love this game for the customization and depth could not care less that there's 500 weapons they never used because molotov cocktail was all they ever needed to get to the next scene. But this mod is for the section of players who like to use their mind in combat, at least from time to time. Those who like to die unexpectedly to a brute fang who lives up to its name. If you want to go through Arcanum again and feel like that difference between level 30 and level 40 matters, then you are who this mod is for.

In the end, I am just glad you played at all Shadenaut. You gave it your chance, and you bothered to give me your opinion all those times. I only hope that my answers might have made some things more clear, to you and everyone else who read it. Despite how I think you argue on the forum, or how much we disagree, I have valued what was good that you said, and 2.0 will likely be otherwise the better because of it. Keeping Arcanum's classical setting in mind, let's remember what Voltaire said, the words which defined the pinnacle of Enlightenment thought:

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

This exchange was welcome, as is serious criticism from any other, and I am much obliged to have your opinion at all. In return, I will tell you as much as I can about that which you would like to change in Arcanum, so that you might enjoy it all the more yourself.

Should this discussion on the forums be referred to in the future, let it be known as The War of the Drogs Which Wasn't.

Godspeed,
Leonidus

 

[Shadenuat]

let it be known as The War of the Drogs Which Wasn't

The tragedy is a true pacifist run is impossible in Arcanum because the kerghan castle of the void will not open until the two guardians by the door are killed.

It is, but it requires to use buggy AI a little to your advantage, by bringing Void party to gates and then saying them to leave the party. Not the clean way to do it, but will get you 0 kills in the book.
AND IT IS ALSO USEFUL TO HAVE CHARM BEAST GODDAMIT

And at the same time, the number one thing Arcanum players like is everything except the combat

What I think can be summed up by post #93, really.

After rebuttal you often change the subject to some more broad criticism or propose a brand new one instead,

Well, yeah, that's how it works. I bring something to the table after playing mod, you answer it, I say "huh", I go read readme again, playtest some more, and go back and tell what I think now.

Sometimes it seemed more like you were just kind of constantly searching for any reason.

If I sound confused that means I am, because I experience something in the game one way, and you tell me it's the other way and "RTFM" (and because in general, your mod can be confusing). I'm not getting payed for that stuff, I write what I feel, don't expect a list of technical details. So I can say as many general statements as I want if I feel that it's what I experienced in the game. If I think that lightning bolt spell is lame, well, that's just how it was for me.

When I said it was good that you finally admitted you were wrong, you backtracked immediately

I did not backtrack from anything. I thought mod was balanced for levels 50+, but it wasn't, as I finished it on level 49, so I was wrong, there wasn't any change in XP progression.
But my opinion was based on first view on mod, growth in enemy stats, your recommendation for removal level cap and fact that "monsters got hundreds, even thousands more HP", so no surprise there that I 'd.

Anyway I can only propose people to try the mod themselves, it DOES NOT make game easier or unbalanced, and it is not mod where you will meet level 49 golden bears on every turn. It still supports multiple builds, and yes it does make combat harder. It also removes some things people could had issues with in Arcanum, like managing potions or having your armor and weapons break in a few rounds of combat with every golem you meet. I actually liked that you could end up in BMC naked without potions, but maybe I'm masochistic by nature. But then you will die on other places in this mod, so it could balance things out.
Oh and people who like guns or want full party of revolver wielding cowboys would be happy with this mod.

I still believe many of my arguments stand. No resource management, crazy schematics, occasional freezes/crashes with Water magic (be afraid of Raven in party) as well as some other bugs with spells and not, hp-bloats for bosses, locked spells&disciplines and still not very balanced magic (although not HARM HARM HARM like in vanilla); I think these are still issues, purist I am or not. And I didn't like melee and melee weapons, in particular stuff which adds even more clicking like 1d2 daggers, and the fact that when compared to enemy health bars, differentiation in basic weapons doesn't matter anyway.

One thing I feel is right to apologize though is for calling your work "amateurish". It wasn't right for me to do so without knowing what instruments you used and without studying manual carefully. And it's not like I ever tried to do better job myself at modding Arcanum, so what do I know.

 

[TheFilthyJack]

I'd like to correct a few things:

Leonidus: I am the author of Arcanum Factory, not Jaesun, no offense.
Morkar: You can modify ANY stats in the prototypes files for weapons/armors/potions/schematics with Arcanum Factory (I did crack all the values that were unknwn before, even custom art), for existing protos or by creating completely new ones, this is exactly the reason why I took the time to code this tool. Why don't you give it a try? I'd love to see more rebalance mods.

 

[Leonidus]

Jack you should have Jaesun edit the Arcanum Repository thread where this is posted then:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/modding-tool-arcanum-factory.82298/#post-2608885

I've been working on a complete tool to help Arcanum modders to add new content directly to Arcanum or WorldEd, and it's finally done.

[Original Arcanum Factory Thread]

The links show your authorship but superficially it looks like Jaesun made it. Editing my posts to replace your name. Thanks again for the amazing tool.

Edit: Well it will let me edit this post but no others. Could be my low post count doesn't give me the privilege, or rpgcodex simply doesn't allow it after a certain time?