Arcanum Arcanum isn't especially flawed in any way

[Specs54]

Was there ever any serious attempt to try and "rebalance" Arcanum in any way apart from say, this mod? http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/arcanum-rebalance-mod.86669/

 

[FeelTheRads]

And that's bad how?

It's bad because it's not as broken as the mage build and you actually have to work on your character a little.

I can understand people who don't like Arcanum combat, but it's hard to believe somebody actually can have trouble with it.

This. I can't imagine screwing up this badly. Depends what makes you stop playing the game, I guess.

Few other games have combat systems this broken. Off the top of my head I can't even think of any.

Kult. Way more broken, I think.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

If you think tech sucks you just haven't figued it out yet.

The suckitude of tech has little to do with viability and almost everything to do with play experience. Going along a technological path will almost always yield a less interesting playthrough than a magical one. Technologist gameplay simply isn't very compelling. It's basically spending a bunch of character points to gain the ability to craft items, of which the utility of such ability is often obviated by shopkeepers and/or metagaming. Tons of schematic-created items could be easily bought and/or found. Congrats, those two scarce character points in Gunsmithing are useless

Even the "player-exclusive" schematic productions are fairly unimpressive compared to what a mage, of similar "power" could produce; compare a somewhat adept summoner using Ogres to a Doctorate of Mechanics with Mechanized Arachnids. And even the relatively impressive ones seem lackluster from a gameplay standpoint. Woo-hoo, I made a bitching ring that improves my combat stats dramatically. Meanwhile, the mage has far more "active" abilities that can turn the tide of a battle upon use and, importantly, require a bit of player input. It's a lot more fun that way.

Tech also relied heavily upon metagame knowledge that magic hardly required. Things like knowing where to pickup up basic schematics (e.g. Bullet Schematics) or ingredients could make or break a tech playthrough. Mages simply needed to read the manual and understand the character system. When one invested in a Magickal College, they immediately received the spell. No waiting, no searching, just immediate usability.

And while magic gave rise to some alternative quest/environment interactions, technological disciplines could not make the same sort of boast. A necromancer could raise the spirits of those they killed to interrogate. Wizards with the ability to disintegrate things or become invisible could easily solve thieving quests. I believe there were even a few dialogue checks that allowed one to make different, and meaningful, choices at a high enough magical aptitude. As for all those Doctorates in tech disciplines? Nothing to my knowledge. Not a single scripted check, hardly any uniquely rewarding uses of the items derived from technological mastery, and much les environmental interaction. Magic enjoys much of the "Fallout-like" gameworld interaction, both in scripted and systemic fashions, while technology can't do the same. Where are the skill-checks to solve quests with your character's mastery of Chemistry/Electricity/Mechanics in the vein of Fallout Repair/Science/Doctor?

Thematically speaking, tech is at a loss as well. Most of the quests or exploratory elements involve old magic, and feel more suited to a student of the arcane arts rather than a man of science. Things like the Derian Ka, the Dark Elves, P. Schyler and Sons, the demonic serial killer, the gypsy crystal ball, the Void, etc. Technologists basically have the Vendigroth ruins in the lategame and that's about it.

All in all, tech in Arcanum is similar to a STR/CON/DEX playthrough in Torment or ranged gameplay in Gothic/Risen/Dark Souls; it's viable to clear the game, but far less interesting and rewarding than other alternatives.

 

[eremita]

Did you not notice the combat system or something?

Did you not notice the rest of the game or something?

I noticed that the combat system was broken in a game that foists an inordinate amount of combat upon you. I also noticed that although the game world was interesting, many areas were clearly rushed and that the story itself was a non-starter. And the character system was unbalanced, but then that goes without saying.

THIS.

That game is simply bipolar. Strong parts of the game are fucking phenomenal, the weak ones are ridiculously bad. Also, there's the worst romance I have ever encountered in any game. Ever.

 

[eremita]

Also third point five edition is awful, but so is every other edition of D&D.

 

[Infinitron]

Face it, Torment/Fallout/BG2 is a better holy trinity than Torment/Fallout/Arcanum.

Also, it gives equal representation to Tim Cain, Chris Avellone, and er, David Gaider.

 

[eremita]

Face it, Torment/Fallout/BG2 is a better holy trinity than Torment/Fallout/Arcanum.

"The most polished and coherent" category: Fallout1, BG2 "The flawed gems": Arcanum, Torment

Also, it gives equal representation to Tim Cain, Chris Avellone, and er, David Gaider

You meant James Ohlen, right?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Also, there's the worst romance I have ever encountered in any game. Ever.

This is serious business

Things like knowing where to pickup up basic schematics (e.g. Bullet Schematics) or ingredients could make or break a tech playthrough.

That's a huge exaggeration. Hardly difficult to find and if you play a tech then you fucking go look for what you need.

Mostly agree with the rest of your post except I don't think that the tech should be pumped-up, but rather the mage nerfed.

Regardless, the tech vs mage argument is pretty irrelevant in a classless system. There's nothing stopping you from making a gunslinger gentleman with thieving skills, or whatever else. That's the beauty of Arcanum's system, that you have this freedom in character creation.

So, with the mage toned down, more tech skill checks (which was a good point you made), increased difficulty and a decent combat system it would have been great. It does what Fallout does better in pretty much every other area.

 

[Pope Amole II]

6. chosen one bullshit who makes no sense in setting

Have you even payed attention to the plot? Honestly?

As for the game itself - it's as broken as your average rpg. Almost all of the classical ones have half of their rpg system being corrupted in one way or another (either too weak and unviable or just not working right), and most also have boring combat with tons and tons of filler. Honestly, you want to say to me that fallout 1 (which is never criticized for that) is somehow different?

Half of the traits is shit, so are 3/4 of the perks, half of the skills is either useless or learned from books, and combat is all about spamming the same weak monsters - 25 fucking rats in the starting cave, half a hundred more (if not more) in the vault 15, dozen of people in raiders' camp (which is absolutely trivial when it comes to difficulty - last time I fucking shot them in an ironman playthrough with PE 9 and small guns skills of 28%), hordes of stupid ghouls in necropolis (posing no challenge whatsoever)... It's only once super-muties show up, the combat becomes at least challenging (but still, not interesting). And even that is mostly discounted by the ridiculousness of both power armor and your endgame weapons.

And let's not forget that, while arcanum combat is terrible, you can either skip it by being a thief character or you can bring a party of 6 persons with you (which, by the way, is a proper way to play tech character - after all, tech is all about making life better for everyone) and with 6 properly equipped npc even bmm is not such a chore.

 

[eremita]

Also, there's the worst romance I have ever encountered in any game. Ever.

This is serious business

Nope, Just another proof how shitty something turns out to be, when you're not really trying. Arcanum is full of lost potential because of half assed job. An it's completely unnecessary, they should have just cut a lot of things out in early development and focus on major things (like combat).

 

[SCO]

6. chosen one bullshit who makes no sense in setting

Have you even payed attention to the plot? Honestly?

Of course i have, and i know the living one is bullshit since he's supposed to be the reincarnation of Nasrudin who is quite alive. It doesn't make thematic sense. What's the draw of this bullshit religion so that it can have adherents 1800 years later after their little moronic tech vs magic / elven supremacist vs moderate elven supremacist bitchfight so that people and dogma don't even remember the circumstances (like the city or the council) and yet the cult has a fuckyouhuge temple? Does the dogma have anything at all attractive about it for common people?

It sounds like some piece of bullshit that was stuffed into the plot just so npcs can call you 'Living One' and trigger that rpg writer pavlov conditioning. I'm only going to mention the 'prophecy' which is, of course, the lazy writers route for legitimacy: 'see, what they predict happens... because a npc says so'; real magic, real worldbuilding, real plotting, no bullshit.

 

[bloodlover]

I don't agree on learning the rules. You have to be really retarded to fuck up your character right from the creation screen to the point where you can't beat the game. Like pumping intelligence on a barbarian :D Besides, D&D rules are not that hard anyway and it does not take a long time to learn them.

You didn't actually read Roguey's post did you

I did. Did you?

 

[Malpercio]

Face it, Torment/Fallout/BG2 is a better holy trinity than Torment/Fallout/Arcanum.

"The most polished and coherent" category: Fallout1, BG2 "The flawed gems": Arcanum, Torment

Meh, I won't say Torment is flawed in the same way as arcanum. I know people have issues with the combat and whatnot, but the game knows what it wants to do (dialogs) and it does them well.

Arcanum, on other hand, it does good things, but they are often buried in a pile of... well, I won't say shit, but let's say that for every thing it does well, it does 2 wrong.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Revisonism, hindsight, etc. If you played Arcanum on its launch there is no way you would call it a game that "isn't especially flawed in any way".

And while it's true that all crpgs can be broken by powergaming, most of them require at least some amount of metaknowledge. Arcanum doesn't. I just picked a mage, picked an elf because they are supposed to be good mages, picked harm because it's a low level offensive spell and I need to defend myself. Realizing that this spell can win me a game if I just clicked fast enough took what, 5 minutes? Oh, and when it comes to tech vs magic comparison I still thing that lockpicking is the "funniest" example.

Arcanum fails on achieving the "bad game that is good because of the non-gameplay stuff" status of PST. Admittedly it's a hard thing to achieve, but I won't give any extra points for that, a failure is a failure and they should've just gone for the gameplay first and foremost anyway.

It also pisses me off immensely that it's basically the only actual clone of F1/2 that we got, how is that even possible.

Honestly, you want to say to me that fallout 1 (which is never criticized for that) is somehow different?

Yes.

 

[Kz3r0]

Has equal representation to Tim Cain, Chris Avellone, and er, David Gaider.

Thanks for pointing out why Baldur's gate shouldn't be there to begin with.

By the way the bayesian count confirmed the true holy trinity, matemathics doesn't lie.

 

[thesheeep]

When you say the combat sucks, are you talking about the RT or TB mode?

I found the TB mode to be fine. Not really great, but it works.
The RT mode is utterly broken.

 

[Roguey]

There is free resting in most games and if you take this as being a major flaw, we are talking about a shitload of games.

Yes, we are, but it feels worse in NWN2. In the IE games there's a slight disincentive either through a string of interruptions or needing to backtrack, but in NWN2 you just need to wait a few seconds. Couple this with the fact that companions can't actually die, and you get a game where you can get through with subpar tactics and/or magic spam as long as one character has enough health to make it through the end. I would never want to play like that in BG2 or the IWDs.

It is necessary though as a gameplay mechanic in video games since you don't have the flexibility of a real PnP session.
I think having certain risks when resting (and I am not talking about random kobolds that ambush the party) or requiring food and water might be a good option.

PoE's looking good.

I don't agree on learning the rules. You have to be really retarded to fuck up your character right from the creation screen to the point where you can't beat the game. Like pumping intelligence on a barbarian :D Besides, D&D rules are not that hard anyway and it does not take a long time to learn them.

Infinitron was partially right, you didn't understand. NWN2's difficulty was intentionally tuned so the average person who doesn't care enough to learn the rules of the game and would rather focus on the story can complete it. Or as Josh puts it

This will probably sound really bad, but I don't think most RPG designers actually think about gameplay -- especially not core gameplay. I think this is due to a few problems: first, some gamers (and even some game devs) view gameplay as a chore. They are quite vocal about wanting to pursue the story and characters more as a choose-your-own adventure novel than as an integral part of a role-playing game. Because of this, designers often focus on the creative aspects of RPGs to a fault -- essentially letting the core gameplay elements fall by the wayside. The result is, unsurprisingly, worse gameplay that even more players are loathe to engage.

Unfortunately, since the lead designer was Bioware fanboy Ferret Baudoin, those creative aspects weren't that creative.

 

[Shadenuat]

Arcanum fails on achieving the "bad game that is good because of the non-gameplay stuff" status of PST. Admittedly it's a hard thing to achieve, but I won't give any extra points for that, a failure is a failure and they should've just gone for the gameplay first and foremost anyway.

When did dialogue and roleplay became "not gameplay" for an RPG?

It doesn't make thematic sense. What's the draw of this bullshit religion

It makes sense, prophecy shows that old powers and conflicts still have a hold on a world of Arcanum, in which magic and technology are supposed to be just two sides of a same coin and come in waves, which was Vendigroth all about.
As for religion, I'm pretty sure it was a clever parody, which you can get by reading their Tarant pamphlet where people express how in world of technology they lost a purpose but found it again by following some oldforgotten fairy tale about two elves which today has almost nothing to do with their lives (or so they think).

 

[Rake]

Arcanum fails on achieving the "bad game that is good because of the non-gameplay stuff" status of PST. Admittedly it's a hard thing to achieve, but I won't give any extra points for that, a failure is a failure and they should've just gone for the gameplay first and foremost anyway.

When did dialogue and roleplay became "not gameplay" for an RPG?

Combatfags. Combatfags never change.
Why clicking on enemies is gameplay while clicking on dialogue options is not i will never understand.

 

[agentorange]

Arcanum is exceptional. Suck my cock you fucking boons. Play Wizardry 1 for the rest of your lives, the height of fucking crpgs right there.

 

[V_K]

Arcanum fails on achieving the "bad game that is good because of the non-gameplay stuff" status of PST. Admittedly it's a hard thing to achieve, but I won't give any extra points for that, a failure is a failure and they should've just gone for the gameplay first and foremost anyway.

When did dialogue and roleplay became "not gameplay" for an RPG?

Combatfags. Combatfags never change.
Why clicking on enemies is gameplay while clicking on dialogue options is not i will never understand.

Clicking on enemies involves some sort of effort on the player side to influence the outcome (be it tactical considerations, resource management or plain reflexes). Clicking on dialogue options involves no such thing*.

*In most games, that is. I can think of two, where dialogue is a gameplay mechanic: Alpha Protocol and Aractera. Incidentally, both are horrible.

 

[Scruffy]

I'd like to confirm, as per shoutbox discussion, that Tarant has a proper industrial revolution city "feel", and it's atmospheric and not boring

tl;dr: fuck you SCO

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

When did dialogue and roleplay became "not gameplay" for an RPG?

Ah, but what is a roleplay? As for dialogue, "when" is a wrong question if it was like that from the beginning. I'm a combatfag and while I certainly can enjoy a good dialogue and story in a game, they are a mere additions that don't mean much if the rest is bad. Also, I noticed that people tend to overblow the actual quality of writing in games to huge proportions, which doesn't help to support the case of storyfags.

 

[Average Manatee]

I'd like to confirm, as per shoutbox discussion, that Tarant has a proper industrial revolution city "feel", and it's atmospheric and not boring

tl;dr: fuck you SCO

Only problem with Tarant is that there was no map to be found with labeled streets. That's incredibly fucking oppressive every time you need to run around randomly puzzling through the names just to find Sir Cocksucker McFuckbottom.

 

[Hirato]

Only problem with Tarant is that there was no map to be found with labeled streets. That's incredibly fucking oppressive every time you need to run around randomly puzzling through the names just to find Sir Cocksucker McFuckbottom.

Except your map did have those labels, the only caveat was that you had to examine the signs in question for the labels to be present on it.