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Anyone feel that Sid Meier games are fun for awhile then get boring quickly

Serus

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I once, very long time ago, tried MoO3 but for some reason couldn't run any version with bug fixing mods and the base game is supposedly ridden with them. So i didn't play it.


As to Prates! The OP probably played the 2005 version. It is worse than the 1980s version. Seriously. It has higher resolution and better quality sound of course. It has some additions that don't add much - like dancing or items. The only thing it does really better were land battles. The old one had much more longevity. It was more difficult - and i don't only mean combat. For once you could be literally lost on sea before you learnt all the landmarks. You could not be able the avoid a combat. Both (almost) impossible in the remake. The graphics were 16 color EGA but had better, semi-realistic, style instead of the cartoony vomit. The end scoring was actually open ended and not just "check all options" nonsense. Even your end game careers were better chosen and more numerous. The 1980s version is a semi-historical, immersive, pirate game. Versus a cartoony theme park with ships looking the size of small islands and writing "evil" on them. Even with all that, the remake is an enjoyable game but, as i said before, has less staying power than the original.
 

Data4

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I feel this way about most supply-chain based survival games (Banished and its many clones, for example). Once you've figure out how to get the resources on autopilot, there's really no point in continuing.
 

Nutmeg

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increase difficulty
This.

The whole AI cheats thing is a cope. You're not going to get good non cheating AIs for another 5 years and it will be a while before they filter down into older games through mods and stuff.

In the mean time embrace asymmetrical challenge. It makes similar demands of the player, just in a different way.

Sid's games could have used the secret ingredient that makes Master of Orion stay fresh much longer: unpredictability. In MoO the factions are unbalanced, and which factions and what tech will appear in a game is semi-random, so it makes the game far more replayable than the Civ games IMO. SMAC was a move in the right direction, making it easily superior to Civ 1-3, but not quite enough.
I like to think of the shit factions as difficulty modes.
 
Self-Ejected

Dadd

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AI cheating breaks immersion to some extent. But I'm willing to overlook it for increased challenge.

You need to make-believe in Sid Meier type games to keep them interesting. Otherwise, functionally they're piles of micromanagement.
 

Zanzoken

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As to Prates! The OP probably played the 2005 version. It is worse than the 1980s version. Seriously. It has higher resolution and better quality sound of course. It has some additions that don't add much - like dancing or items. The only thing it does really better were land battles. The old one had much more longevity. It was more difficult - and i don't only mean combat. For once you could be literally lost on sea before you learnt all the landmarks. You could not be able the avoid a combat. Both (almost) impossible in the remake. The graphics were 16 color EGA but had better, semi-realistic, style instead of the cartoony vomit. The end scoring was actually open ended and not just "check all options" nonsense. Even your end game careers were better chosen and more numerous. The 1980s version is a semi-historical, immersive, pirate game. Versus a cartoony theme park with ships looking the size of small islands and writing "evil" on them. Even with all that, the remake is an enjoyable game but, as i said before, has less staying power than the original.

The original Pirates is one of the landmark achievements in video games, imo. The gameplay and world are simple, yet so fun and immersive.

I agree with you 100% on the remake. It's okay, but harmed significantly by the poor production value and dumbing down of the systems.

I have always been disappointed that Pirates didn't spawn a whole genre, the way Mario did for platformers or Doom did for FPS. I guess it just wasn't a big enough hit.
 

Nutmeg

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I enjoyed darklands, which is basically a pirates clone, but never got into the original pirates. That's not to say I think pirates is a bad game, it's just after spending so long with darklands, I kind of "got" the formula and moved on. Kinda what this thread is about.
 

Axioms

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I feel this way about most supply-chain based survival games (Banished and its many clones, for example). Once you've figure out how to get the resources on autopilot, there's really no point in continuing.
Comparing Banished to something like Ixion, one is a freeform city builder and one is a puzzle roguelike/visual novel. Banished and Tilted Mill type games move from mastery to expression and self direction relatively quickly. I made a river based cloth industry city with 80 of a targeted 200 waterwheel cloth mills, before I quit anyways. Cause you can't do anything with your thousands of coats or w/e because you've already traded for anything of significance.
 

RobotSquirrel

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Colonization and Civ4 have amazing longevity, especially when modded. Civ4 Caveman to Cosmos is less so much a spend a whole day playing it and more spending several months, the only issue is that the AI for both leaves a lot to be desired, its either too easy or its cheaty and unfair af there are no in-betweens.
The only reason I have to abandon C2C playthroughs is that eventually the game gets so bad instability and crashes that I give up in frustration.

With Sid Meire's Pirates the main issue I can see with it is that once you've got a comfortable armada and have managed to attack towns and bang the governor's hot daughter there's not really a lot to do other than an attempt to hunt down famous pirates and that honestly gets boring after a while, they don't put up much a fight it's more tracking them down and chasing them which is tedious.

I think Sid's design suffers from that the majority of the fun is in the acquisition of resources, once you have everything and are comfortable, entering into the "hoarding dragon on top of a pile of gold" phase that most games have there's nothing else to really do, you get a bit bored. The game design only goes so far.
Its sort of why I like the C2C approach because its more and more and more resources stacked on top of the existing design, the problem is that the engine can't facilitate playing up to that point, its the same thing as what some Rimworld mods do where they add more and more tiers of resources, that helps pad the game out a bit longer but you'll eventually arrive at the same dead ending. And the engines can't keep up which is my main inhibitor to continuing play.
 

RobotSquirrel

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Isn't that true for 99% of all games?
Being topical I think Dwarf Fortress handles it better than the majority of games because it quantifies the success of your colony and then throws horrible shit at you the more you hoard.
Colonization sort of tries this but it's easy to circumvent.
 

Axioms

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Colonization and Civ4 have amazing longevity, especially when modded. Civ4 Caveman to Cosmos is less so much a spend a whole day playing it and more spending several months, the only issue is that the AI for both leaves a lot to be desired, its either too easy or its cheaty and unfair af there are no in-betweens.
The only reason I have to abandon C2C playthroughs is that eventually the game gets so bad instability and crashes that I give up in frustration.

With Sid Meire's Pirates the main issue I can see with it is that once you've got a comfortable armada and have managed to attack towns and bang the governor's hot daughter there's not really a lot to do other than an attempt to hunt down famous pirates and that honestly gets boring after a while, they don't put up much a fight it's more tracking them down and chasing them which is tedious.

I think Sid's design suffers from that the majority of the fun is in the acquisition of resources, once you have everything and are comfortable, entering into the "hoarding dragon on top of a pile of gold" phase that most games have there's nothing else to really do, you get a bit bored. The game design only goes so far.
Its sort of why I like the C2C approach because its more and more and more resources stacked on top of the existing design, the problem is that the engine can't facilitate playing up to that point, its the same thing as what some Rimworld mods do where they add more and more tiers of resources, that helps pad the game out a bit longer but you'll eventually arrive at the same dead ending. And the engines can't keep up which is my main inhibitor to continuing play.
Can you actually bang the governor's hot daughter? That would be pretty ahead of the times. Or is that a PotC meme?
 

RobotSquirrel

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Can you actually bang the governor's hot daughter? That would be pretty ahead of the times. Or is that a PotC meme?
No, I think you just "date" her in the game. Was just implying that the game sort of rewards you for being promiscuous, it's more than fine with you "dancing" with many of the ladies in the game.
 
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Options in the C64 original:
858444-sid-meier-s-pirates-commodore-64-screenshot-the-beautiful.png
 
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play Master of Orion 3 - honestly.
don't read anything about the game (except the manual ofc, which is pretty damn good btw), don't look at guides, don't install any mods (other than strawberry/tropical) that change anything but bugs. try to figure out the entire game with its micro- and macromanagment yourself, don't let the AI automate ANYTHING. seriously, MoO3 will keep you busy for a long, long time. if you play it the right way, you're going to feel like the ruler of an entire galaxy.
Is there any kind of master switch to turn off all the automation? Everything seems to be automated by default.

Just installed this game few days ago for the first time. And I remember being hyped for this game before release, then reading it was shit and not even trying it. lmao. Seems pretty good so far.
 
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As far as I'm concerned, the problem with Civ games and SMAC is the so-called "infinite city sprawl"(ICS), as the expansion of complexity in your civilization is not properly balanced by existing penalties to "efficiency". From a gameplay perspective this means the expansion of the managerial aspect of the games in a way that is out of proportion to the strategic aspect. I never play larger than Normal maps for this reason, as managing a large empire becomes tedious and extremely time consuming.

My enjoyment of these games usually peaks with the formation of a strategic quagmire in the early to mid parts of the game, when you have 3-4 civilizations standing in relatively equal footing, or in a balanced but tense configuration. Sometimes an interesting status quo is formed and your civilization acquires the aspect of a real nation with "historical" borders. This is what I love most about the games and other 4X's I've played can't replicate it, even my favorite Master of Magic.

As soon as the strategic balance is broken, the strategic aspect is simplified while the managerial aspect becomes predominant. If I feel there's no meaningful challenge ahead, then I consider the game to be already over and there's little point continuing.

Most advanced strats by expert players consist of rushes (tech rushes and early conquest), min-maxing and so on, and although this is the only way to beat the AI at the highest levels of difficulty, it erases all ambiguity from the strategic layer. Therefore I prefer to play the games in short bursts at the cost of remaining a casual gamer.
 

Axioms

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As far as I'm concerned, the problem with Civ games and SMAC is the so-called "infinite city sprawl"(ICS), as the expansion of complexity in your civilization is not properly balanced by existing penalties to "efficiency". From a gameplay perspective this means the expansion of the managerial aspect of the games in a way that is out of proportion to the strategic aspect. I never play larger than Normal maps for this reason, as managing a large empire becomes tedious and extremely time consuming.

My enjoyment of these games usually peaks with the formation of a strategic quagmire in the early to mid parts of the game, when you have 3-4 civilizations standing in relatively equal footing, or in a balanced but tense configuration. Sometimes an interesting status quo is formed and your civilization acquires the aspect of a real nation with "historical" borders. This is what I love most about the games and other 4X's I've played can't replicate it, even my favorite Master of Magic.

As soon as the strategic balance is broken, the strategic aspect is simplified while the managerial aspect becomes predominant. If I feel there's no meaningful challenge ahead, then I consider the game to be already over and there's little point continuing.

Most advanced strats by expert players consist of rushes (tech rushes and early conquest), min-maxing and so on, and although this is the only way to beat the AI at the highest levels of difficulty, it erases all ambiguity from the strategic layer. Therefore I prefer to play the games in short bursts at the cost of remaining a casual gamer.
A major issue is that there's almost never any "reversal of fortune" possible in these games and of course some argue that if there was players would get mad. There's never any tradeoffs like "expand really fast but have internal stability issues vs slow but careful expansion". Actually Imperator has some of the best gameplay in this regard with moving slaves around and various parts of the assimilation vs integration system.

Having strategic tension is somewhat impossible since the games lack any real diplomacy between powers.

Having a system where one power takes a big chomp but then is stalled while they "digest" I think would add a ton to these games. Typically you almost instantly become more powerful after a conflict.

From a practical perspective it is really hard to create a simple and "gamey", aka civ style, strategy game that doesn't devolve into micro hell. There's no system in most games that shifts the focus as your scope increases. Automation is a bit mediocre. In real life the requirement of delegation is what limits expansion. Managing vassals or other forms of delegation could plausible allow you to avoid micro hell. Paradox tries and fails to employ this strategy, in most cases. Very few others even try.
 
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As far as I'm concerned, the problem with Civ games and SMAC is the so-called "infinite city sprawl"(ICS), as the expansion of complexity in your civilization is not properly balanced by existing penalties to "efficiency". From a gameplay perspective this means the expansion of the managerial aspect of the games in a way that is out of proportion to the strategic aspect. I never play larger than Normal maps for this reason, as managing a large empire becomes tedious and extremely time consuming.

My enjoyment of these games usually peaks with the formation of a strategic quagmire in the early to mid parts of the game, when you have 3-4 civilizations standing in relatively equal footing, or in a balanced but tense configuration. Sometimes an interesting status quo is formed and your civilization acquires the aspect of a real nation with "historical" borders. This is what I love most about the games and other 4X's I've played can't replicate it, even my favorite Master of Magic.

As soon as the strategic balance is broken, the strategic aspect is simplified while the managerial aspect becomes predominant. If I feel there's no meaningful challenge ahead, then I consider the game to be already over and there's little point continuing.

Most advanced strats by expert players consist of rushes (tech rushes and early conquest), min-maxing and so on, and although this is the only way to beat the AI at the highest levels of difficulty, it erases all ambiguity from the strategic layer. Therefore I prefer to play the games in short bursts at the cost of remaining a casual gamer.
A major issue is that there's almost never any "reversal of fortune" possible in these games and of course some argue that if there was players would get mad. There's never any tradeoffs like "expand really fast but have internal stability issues vs slow but careful expansion". Actually Imperator has some of the best gameplay in this regard with moving slaves around and various parts of the assimilation vs integration system.

Having strategic tension is somewhat impossible since the games lack any real diplomacy between powers.

Having a system where one power takes a big chomp but then is stalled while they "digest" I think would add a ton to these games. Typically you almost instantly become more powerful after a conflict.

From a practical perspective it is really hard to create a simple and "gamey", aka civ style, strategy game that doesn't devolve into micro hell. There's no system in most games that shifts the focus as your scope increases. Automation is a bit mediocre. In real life the requirement of delegation is what limits expansion. Managing vassals or other forms of delegation could plausible allow you to avoid micro hell. Paradox tries and fails to employ this strategy, in most cases. Very few others even try.

Diplomacy in SMAC involves personality (of the AI, which can be cooperative, belligerent, etc.), the personal relation (built on accepting/refusing demands, trading), ideology (e.g. industrialist vs green, capitalist vs collectivist) and perceived threat (how powerful you are in relation to others). It's a good system but not developed enough (there's no such thing yet). Perhaps new developments in AI will give us something approaching this. IMO, AI doesn't really need to reach human level, only be good enough that it can sustain a credible challenge with minimal inherent advantages(cheating). Of course, playing against human or even superhuman level AI would be fascinating in itself.

Paradox creates lots of artificial barriers to maintain its façade of historical plausibility. This makes for "complex" games that are very simple from a point of view of pure strategy(I still like them for other reasons). The challenge is only in learning how to use every system to your advantage. Take Vic 2, for example:
  • Infamy: prevents player from blobbing, but since the player will manage infamy in a smarter way than the AI, he's guaranteed to expand more in relative terms.
  • Diplomatic points: allows weaker nations to steal spherelings from stronger nations, but unlike the AI the player can minmax point allocation to steal nations from others while keeping his nations secure.
  • Diplomatic crises: allows restive regions to break away from conquering nations. In reality, it causes the self-destruction of stable empires like the UK as they make wrong alliances and get dragged intto useless wars, while the player avoids disasters by making the right alliances.
The advantage of more abstract games like Civ is that it avoids this kind of complexity, which we could call "strategic noise". Ideally, the AI would make dynamic calculations based on a series of factors: is this nation a threat? could it be a threat in the future? could it give an advantage to a powerful adversary if it allied them/fell under their control? how important is this region economically/strategically? if we are hostile/friendly to them, how would others react? Once the AI is competent enough at this, we could introduce "narcissistic" elements like ideology into the mix to create unique and unpredictable gameplay.
 

Axioms

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As far as I'm concerned, the problem with Civ games and SMAC is the so-called "infinite city sprawl"(ICS), as the expansion of complexity in your civilization is not properly balanced by existing penalties to "efficiency". From a gameplay perspective this means the expansion of the managerial aspect of the games in a way that is out of proportion to the strategic aspect. I never play larger than Normal maps for this reason, as managing a large empire becomes tedious and extremely time consuming.

My enjoyment of these games usually peaks with the formation of a strategic quagmire in the early to mid parts of the game, when you have 3-4 civilizations standing in relatively equal footing, or in a balanced but tense configuration. Sometimes an interesting status quo is formed and your civilization acquires the aspect of a real nation with "historical" borders. This is what I love most about the games and other 4X's I've played can't replicate it, even my favorite Master of Magic.

As soon as the strategic balance is broken, the strategic aspect is simplified while the managerial aspect becomes predominant. If I feel there's no meaningful challenge ahead, then I consider the game to be already over and there's little point continuing.

Most advanced strats by expert players consist of rushes (tech rushes and early conquest), min-maxing and so on, and although this is the only way to beat the AI at the highest levels of difficulty, it erases all ambiguity from the strategic layer. Therefore I prefer to play the games in short bursts at the cost of remaining a casual gamer.
A major issue is that there's almost never any "reversal of fortune" possible in these games and of course some argue that if there was players would get mad. There's never any tradeoffs like "expand really fast but have internal stability issues vs slow but careful expansion". Actually Imperator has some of the best gameplay in this regard with moving slaves around and various parts of the assimilation vs integration system.

Having strategic tension is somewhat impossible since the games lack any real diplomacy between powers.

Having a system where one power takes a big chomp but then is stalled while they "digest" I think would add a ton to these games. Typically you almost instantly become more powerful after a conflict.

From a practical perspective it is really hard to create a simple and "gamey", aka civ style, strategy game that doesn't devolve into micro hell. There's no system in most games that shifts the focus as your scope increases. Automation is a bit mediocre. In real life the requirement of delegation is what limits expansion. Managing vassals or other forms of delegation could plausible allow you to avoid micro hell. Paradox tries and fails to employ this strategy, in most cases. Very few others even try.

Diplomacy in SMAC involves personality (of the AI, which can be cooperative, belligerent, etc.), the personal relation (built on accepting/refusing demands, trading), ideology (e.g. industrialist vs green, capitalist vs collectivist) and perceived threat (how powerful you are in relation to others). It's a good system but not developed enough (there's no such thing yet). Perhaps new developments in AI will give us something approaching this. IMO, AI doesn't really need to reach human level, only be good enough that it can sustain a credible challenge with minimal inherent advantages(cheating). Of course, playing against human or even superhuman level AI would be fascinating in itself.

Paradox creates lots of artificial barriers to maintain its façade of historical plausibility. This makes for "complex" games that are very simple from a point of view of pure strategy(I still like them for other reasons). The challenge is only in learning how to use every system to your advantage. Take Vic 2, for example:
  • Infamy: prevents player from blobbing, but since the player will manage infamy in a smarter way than the AI, he's guaranteed to expand more in relative terms.
  • Diplomatic points: allows weaker nations to steal spherelings from stronger nations, but unlike the AI the player can minmax point allocation to steal nations from others while keeping his nations secure.
  • Diplomatic crises: allows restive regions to break away from conquering nations. In reality, it causes the self-destruction of stable empires like the UK as they make wrong alliances and get dragged intto useless wars, while the player avoids disasters by making the right alliances.
The advantage of more abstract games like Civ is that it avoids this kind of complexity, which we could call "strategic noise". Ideally, the AI would make dynamic calculations based on a series of factors: is this nation a threat? could it be a threat in the future? could it give an advantage to a powerful adversary if it allied them/fell under their control? how important is this region economically/strategically? if we are hostile/friendly to them, how would others react? Once the AI is competent enough at this, we could introduce "narcissistic" elements like ideology into the mix to create unique and unpredictable gameplay.
That might create tougher AI but it hammers verisimilitude and doesn't stop the player from snowballing much. I want to play a game where the mechanics can support the rise and fall of the Ottoman Empire without hard scripted events, for instance. No existing game, and certainly not a Paradox game, is capable of even a shallow version of something like that.
 

Victor1234

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Agreed on civ games becoming micromanagement hell. I think the big challenge is that delegation of responsibility/changing of game scope/anti-blobbing, etc are all late game problems and no developer can afford to spend too much time on those mechanics because most players don't seem to play the late game at all, or devs just don't care because they hope nobody will notice....

EU:Rome was the first (and only) Paradox game that even tried something like taking away territory rather than just slowing down how fast you get it. Players loved the civil war mechanic being an anti-blob strategy because it would cause the AI to break apart once they got too big. In Imperator I've never once seen a civil war where the rebels actually won, no matter how screwed the loyalists were at the start. I think it's on purpose precisely because players on the receiving end would either whine or because they think they can attract more people this way.

It's a mod, but I've always felt the Europa Barbarorum mods (for RTW and MTW2) handled both player and AI expansion really well out of any strategy game I've played. Once you conquer a place, you generally need 3-4 turns of keeping your army there just to set something up without it immediately turning into a dumpster fire.

What you set up depends partly on choice, partly on the current game situation and partly on historical plausibility. Generally it comes down a choice between I get no benefit at all but they stay relatively quiet and I get some benefit but they'll revolt if I'm not careful and slow, so either way you'll be slowed down in expanding. As a bonus, outside of your core areas they'll revolt anyways eventually, just because eventually you'll run out of happiness buildings to build to keep them quiet.
 

Axioms

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Yeah the big issue is that many players will lose their shit about anti-blobbing mechanics. Even detailed ones where you have a long runway to fix things and lots of options about what to do.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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As to Prates! The OP probably played the 2005 version. It is worse than the 1980s version. Seriously. It has higher resolution and better quality sound of course. It has some additions that don't add much - like dancing or items. The only thing it does really better were land battles. The old one had much more longevity. It was more difficult - and i don't only mean combat. For once you could be literally lost on sea before you learnt all the landmarks. You could not be able the avoid a combat. Both (almost) impossible in the remake. The graphics were 16 color EGA but had better, semi-realistic, style instead of the cartoony vomit. The end scoring was actually open ended and not just "check all options" nonsense. Even your end game careers were better chosen and more numerous. The 1980s version is a semi-historical, immersive, pirate game. Versus a cartoony theme park with ships looking the size of small islands and writing "evil" on them. Even with all that, the remake is an enjoyable game but, as i said before, has less staying power than the original.
You must have played the PC port, but the original version of Pirates is for the Commodore 64, and the best version of Pirates is the Amiga port.

34827-sid-meier-s-pirates-amiga-screenshot-title-screen.gif
34833-sid-meier-s-pirates-amiga-screenshot-starting-in-a-french-town.gif

34854-sid-meier-s-pirates-amiga-screenshot-climbing-the-fort-walls.gif
34842-sid-meier-s-pirates-amiga-screenshot-good-hunting.gif



Options in the C64 original:
858444-sid-meier-s-pirates-commodore-64-screenshot-the-beautiful.png
282895-sid-meier-s-pirates-amiga-screenshot-meeting-with-the-governor.png
861147-sid-meier-s-pirates-amiga-screenshot-a-governor-s-daughter.png

438678-sid-meier-s-pirates-amiga-screenshot-another-governor-s-daughter.png
169891-sid-meier-s-pirates-amiga-screenshot-your-wedding-to-the-girl.png
 

Johannes

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increase difficulty
That's actually the opposite. On higher difficulties where (I'm talking mostly about CIV) the AI is cheating like a mofo,
meaning there is very little room for suboptimal play and you need to pull every slingshot and every little bit of cheese to stay in the game.

I'd say you get exactly this feeling when there is one kosher and optimized way to play the game, guaranteeing a win whenever you pull it off.
The fun is in figuring it out, but once you do you're basically done with the game, unless your brain enjoys to autistically go through the motions.
There isn't a single optimal way to play in any civ game. There's a lot of real tough choices when playing vs humans or strong ai without reloading. Going through the details might be tiresome, but the bigger picture strategy you can't just go autopilot on if there's real difficulty.
 

Vic

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usually increasing difficulty requires a different approach, so if you've "figured out" how to beat the game on one difficulty, increasing it will offer you a new challenge.

I was recently playing Warcraft 3, and on Hard I had to learn a whole new set of skills to beat the missions. For example, on normal, it was not necessary to create shortcuts for units, I didn't even know this option existed. But on hard, it was necessary as I had to manage multiple armies at once.
 

Silva

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AI cheating breaks immersion to some extent. But I'm willing to overlook it for increased challenge.

You need to make-believe in Sid Meier type games to keep them interesting. Otherwise, functionally they're piles of micromanagement.
This is why SMAC is the best. It oozes setting and atmosphere, making it easy to roleplay/make-believe.

That said. I can't stand the Civ formula anymore. Can't play even SMAC these days.
 

luj1

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Agreed on civ games becoming micromanagement hell

Endgame (and large maps) are hell.

Like I said, I think Sid Meier's games have depth. But they don't have the width. They are like a small, but deep lake.
 

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