Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[SymbolicFrank]

Q: Will anything anyone posts in this thread change Rogueys view whatsoever?
A: No, only her Idol is able to do so.

Or, in other words: we have to ask Josh.

 

[St. Toxic]

Isn't PoE just that?

No, it has to stick to the BG (bad game) formula to appease the backers, who obviously wouldn't know quality if it broke into their home and shit on their chest. The best he can do is tweak it a bit. The only way we'll see Sawyer's true potential is if he is commissioned to make a game with only himself as the target audience.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

I would even go so far to agree with him. The damage of sniper rifles was very OP even without having to invest any points in perks and even with mid-range stats. Just sneak and let them drop like flies to your 100% criticals. Didn't feel like my character was getting stronger at all while I used that sniper rifle. Great roleplaying mechancis there, Josh.
Anyway, Telengard is spot on with his criticism story-wise and I guess he did a better job than me to explain it.

I agree. There is no reason why getting shot in the head with a rifle should slow you down.

Especially not when you compare it to the amount of times you have to shoot someone in the head with a pistol for them to drop.


It's a game, FFS! Re-label "head" with "armored sensory package" if it bothers you. Or label anything suspicious as "virtual". That always does the trick.

 

[Roguey]

Q: Will anything anyone posts in this thread change Rogueys view whatsoever?
A: No, only her Idol is able to do so.

Or, in other words: we have to ask Josh.

Josh is the Antigrog so of course he wouldn't change my mind about anything.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnyway when it comes to games like New Vegas (Fallout 1 and 2, Arcanum), I thought New Vegas had better dialogue, gray choices, reputation system, armor system, ammo system, weapon balance, skill balance, stealth system, and aside from a couple of exceptions, deterministic skill thresholds instead of pointlessly random.

When it comes to things I prefer in the first two Fallouts, the things that come to mind are xp balance, the setting in Fallout 1, and superficial stuff like the graphics and death animations. I don't think there's anything I like better in Arcanum.

So core gameplay, check, writing, check, role-playing (coming up with a gameplay-supported character concept and watching the game react to that character concept through scripted and systematic reactivity), check. All the things I care about are done better.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Did Sawyer become Obsidian's CEO while I wasn't looking?

He's not the boss nigger of Obsidian but he's their design guy. If he felt as strongly about designing good RPGs as he claims to do, he would've jumped ship a long time ago to make good RPGs with out being held down by the man. But he's a hack and he knows it, so of course he'll ride the gravy train while being in the position where he can blame the awful design of his games on other people. It's wasn't his decision to make a game based on Neverwinter Nights/Fallout 3 Engine. But he sure as hell didn't mind being a designer on those games despite knowing that the end result would be total garbage. Here's a funny quote from JES

An awesome game with a crappy ruleset would be a better game if it had a better ruleset. Again, why grit your teeth and accept fundamentally dumb systems and their dumb adaptations into different media when such things clearly could be designed and executed better?

An awesome ruleset would make a better game if it was attached to a functioning combat system. Why grit your teeth and accept fundamentally shit gameplay systems and try to polish turds by tweaking balance a bit when you could just design a proper game all together?
Here's another really ironic quote from the mac daddy of Mac users himself

Designer off in the clouds' generally only works out when the designer has a very solid technical understanding and focuses heavily on both gameplay mechanics and player experience. Most designers really couldn't give two shits about either.

A designer off in the clouds who really doesn't give a shit about gameplay mechanics nor what the fans want. Hmm... where have I seen that before?

So core gameplay, check

You don't seem to hold Sawyer's opinion in very high regard, do you? Ever heard what he said about core gameplay in RPGs?

Honestly, I think it's really sad that RPGs essentially get a pass on having fundamentally junk core gameplay. And yes, I do consider combat to be a core gameplay element of most RPGs.

You have so low standards that you consider anything slightly better than Arcanum as "good gameplay", but JES has a differing opinion, atleast in theory. New Vegas has bottom of the barrel junk core gameplay, it's the sequel of Fallout 3 for crying out loud. Being "good enough for being a RPG" (made by JES/storyfags) isn't good enough, a good RPG should have good gameplay. Numerous RPGs have succeeded in doing just that, though none of them were made by Obsidian nor Josh Sawyer.

All the things I care about are done better.

But you don't care about gameplay, you've demonstrated this countless times by out right refusing to play superior games. And the only reason why JES games have passable writing is because he's tagging along with Avellone, who makes grognard games at inXile as well.

 

[Roguey]

You have so low standards that you consider anything slightly better than Arcanum as "good gameplay", but JES has a differing opinion, atleast in theory. New Vegas has bottom of the barrel junk core gameplay, it's the sequel of Fallout 3 for crying out loud. Being "good enough for being a RPG" (made by JES/storyfags) isn't good enough, a good RPG should have good gameplay. Numerous RPGs have succeeded in doing just that, though none of them were made by Obsidian nor Josh Sawyer.

As I've said before, welcome to the margins. http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/235975522612416302

But you don't care about gameplay, you've demonstrated this countless times by out right refusing to play superior games. And the only reason why JES games have passable writing is because he's tagging along with Avellone, who makes grognard games at inXile as well.

Josh was responsible for the high-level design of the companions, companion arcs, and the regional design constraints, ensuring individual writers wouldn't include player character dialogue with emotional/intent loading, and specifically Arcade, Hanlon, Kimball's speech, and Joshua Graham and Daniel from Honest Hearts.

He also wrote and sang multiple songs including

 

[TheGreatOne]

As I've said before, welcome to the margins. http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/235975522612416302

Argumentum ad populum. The masses don't play Fallout 3, Mass Effect, Skyrim and Final Fantasy 13 because they like the combat, they play those games for exploration/graphics. Also so called popamole games aren't very popular on this forum for the exact reason that they have bad design. This isn't 90s, the games with the best gameplay aren't the best selling games any more. It's not even about complexity or being hardcore, AAA games simply have shallow, monotonous, painfully mediocre/bad gameplay. You can make an accessible game with well designed content and gameplay, F3/F:NV don't deliver the latter. NV isn't fun to play.

Josh was responsible for the high-level design of the companions, companion arcs, and the regional design constraints, ensuring individual writers wouldn't include player character dialogue with emotional/intent loading, and specifically Arcade, Hanlon, Kimball's speech, and Joshua Graham and Daniel from Honest Hearts.

I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion. I didn't say that JES can't design good companions, reactivity, factions and stuff like that. I said that Chris "dyin2wolves" Avellone is the reason why Obsidian has better writing than Bioware/Bethesda and that your opinion on gameplay is worthless because you have low standards and you refuse to play much better and challenging games, even the ones that weren't designed by grognards. You've never been to a restaurant and you claim that cheese spray, doritos and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are the zenith of culinary arts.

 

[Roguey]

Argumentum ad populum. The masses don't play Fallout 3, Skyrim and Final Fantasy 13 because they like the combat, they play those games for exploration/graphics
F:NV isn't fun. It was boring.

As JES says, you can't make a game for everyone. He made a game for Fallout 3 fans, as he was right to do, and they were pleased for the most part. His game also increased the Fallout 3 playerbase (likely because it was more fun to play). Then he made a cool mod that catered more to his specific tastes that the Fallout 3 player-base would have probably disliked (additional balance improvements aside).

I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion. I didn't say that JES can't design good companions, reactivity, factions and stuff like that. I said that Chris "dyin2wolves" Avellone is the reason why Obsidian has better writing than Bioware/Bethesda

Yet Avellone was only marginally involved in New Vegas and not at all in Honest Hearts and Sawyer was responsible for the tone and several specific examples of writing that were definitely better than Bioware and Bethesda.

 

[TheGreatOne]

As JES says, you can't make a game for everyone. He made a game for Fallout 3 fans, as he was right to do, and they were pleased for the most part.

But apparently making an IE game for IE fans isn't the right thing to do. The question is, why did he decide to work on a project like that in the first place if he believes in his own mantra of RPGs needing to deliver better core gameplay?

Yet Avellone was only marginally involved in New Vegas and not at all in Honest Hearts and Sawyer was responsible for the tone and several specific examples of writing that were definitely better than Bioware and Bethesda.

I haven't played the DLC so I couldn't know, but I'll take your word for it. Josh is to thank for the quality of writing in New Vegas. Well, the quality of writing in New Vegas didn't inspire me to finish the game while it did in Torment, Arcanum, VTMB and MOTB. Atleast I'll give it credit for not making me quit playing it within 90 minutes of starting the game like Fallout 3 did.
How ever NV isn't the only Obsidian game Avellone worked on. Chris worked on all JES games.

 

[Seaking4]

He also wrote and sang multiple songs including

As someone who likes Josh Sawyer, please never post that song again.

I haven't played the DLC so I couldn't know, but I'll take your word for it. Josh is to thank for the quality of writing in New Vegas. Well, the quality of writing in New Vegas didn't inspire me to finish the game while it did in Torment, Arcanum, VTMB and MOTB. Atleast I'll give it credit for not making me quit playing it within 90 minutes of starting the game like Fallout 3 did.
How ever NV isn't the only Obsidian game Avellone worked on. Chris worked on all JES games.

Quality of writing made you finish Arcanum?

Chris isn't the only reason that Obsidian generally has better writing that Bio or Beth. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ziets write most of MotB? Also, while AP didn't have great writing, I consider it a step above all ES games and Avellone only worked on small parts of it.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Before anyone continues arguing with Roguey about NV it should be known she thinks NV is a better shooter than most shooters.

That should tell you enough to get your hat and leave laughing while you still have your sanity.

 

[Zetor]

FWIW I thought Honest Hearts was a fairly bland and poor experience -- though still better than Lonesome Road. OWB was much a more varied and fun experience (hp bloat enemies notwithstanding), and Dead Money tried something very different.

 

[Duraframe300]

He also wrote and sang multiple songs including

As someone who likes Josh Sawyer, please never post that song again.

I haven't played the DLC so I couldn't know, but I'll take your word for it. Josh is to thank for the quality of writing in New Vegas. Well, the quality of writing in New Vegas didn't inspire me to finish the game while it did in Torment, Arcanum, VTMB and MOTB. Atleast I'll give it credit for not making me quit playing it within 90 minutes of starting the game like Fallout 3 did.
How ever NV isn't the only Obsidian game Avellone worked on. Chris worked on all JES games.

Quality of writing made you finish Arcanum?

Chris isn't the only reason that Obsidian generally has better writing that Bio or Beth. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ziets write most of MotB? Also, while AP didn't have great writing, I consider it a step above all ES games and Avellone only worked on small parts of it.

To correct, AP was mostly written by Avellone. He had to piece off given and established materal, but the majority of dialouge and the main story was written by Avellone.

Of course from context I assume you mean NV there. Also John Gonzalez was lead writer on New Vegas. Josh did several writing related things. In terms of dialouge Arcade Gannon. (Who I liked)

Also Obsidian has tons of great writers, thats correct.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

So Obsidian should write novels then. Not make games with shitty gameplay.

 

[Roguey]

But apparently making an IE game for IE fans isn't the right thing to do. The question is, why did he decide to work on a project like that in the first place if he believes in his own mantra of RPGs needing to deliver better core gameplay?

The point, in case zealots ever want to accept it, is that your tastes are not the only tastes in the world. Really, I know this may be hard to believe, but if you like playing a real-time-with-pause game set in a familiar fantasy world, and you like crossbows but don't like guns, and you like the ratio of combat to dialogue to be about 4:1, and you like armor that looks more nearly-realistic than fantastic, and you think dumb trolls are okay but intelligent ogres aren't, and you think magical worlds are okay but fantasy architecture isn't, and you don't like it when italics are used in dialogue but you do like it when boldface is used, and you want it to be longer than 100 hours but no longer than 120 hours, and like games to be non-linear but only to a point, and like big cities, but only two because four is too much BUT HEY NOT THAT ONE, and you like customization but don't mind a little balance BUT HEY NOT THAT MUCH BECAUSE IT'S NOT D&D...I am terribly, terribly sorry, because we are not going to make a game just for you. We're not trying to make a game for everyone. Really, we aren't. But we're not making a game just for you and ten other angry guys with tastes that are narrower than a hallway in a camp of pygmy dwarves.

 

[Delterius]

But apparently making an IE game for IE fans isn't the right thing to do. The question is, why did he decide to work on a project like that in the first place if he believes in his own mantra of RPGs needing to deliver better core gameplay?

The point, in case zealots ever want to accept it, is that your tastes are not the only tastes in the world. Really, I know this may be hard to believe, but if you like playing a real-time-with-pause game set in a familiar fantasy world, and you like crossbows but don't like guns, and you like the ratio of combat to dialogue to be about 4:1, and you like armor that looks more nearly-realistic than fantastic, and you think dumb trolls are okay but intelligent ogres aren't, and you think magical worlds are okay but fantasy architecture isn't, and you don't like it when italics are used in dialogue but you do like it when boldface is used, and you want it to be longer than 100 hours but no longer than 120 hours, and like games to be non-linear but only to a point, and like big cities, but only two because four is too much BUT HEY NOT THAT ONE, and you like customization but don't mind a little balance BUT HEY NOT THAT MUCH BECAUSE IT'S NOT D&D...I am terribly, terribly sorry, because we are not going to make a game just for you. We're not trying to make a game for everyone. Really, we aren't. But we're not making a game just for you and ten other angry guys with tastes that are narrower than a hallway in a camp of pygmy dwarves.

We are making a game? Schizophrenia or revelation? You decide!

 

[Roguey]

1:- [Lore 1] --

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

But we're not making a game just for you and ten other angry guys with tastes that are narrower than a hallway in a camp of pygmy dwarves.

Would you describe yourself as someone with broad or narrow tastes, Roguey?

"We are making a game? Schizophrenia or revelation? You decide!"

Is Roguey quoting Josh or not, you decide!

 

[Rake]

But apparently making an IE game for IE fans isn't the right thing to do. The question is, why did he decide to work on a project like that in the first place if he believes in his own mantra of RPGs needing to deliver better core gameplay?

The point, in case zealots ever want to accept it, is that your tastes are not the only tastes in the world. Really, I know this may be hard to believe, but if you like playing a real-time-with-pause game set in a familiar fantasy world, and you like crossbows but don't like guns, and you like the ratio of combat to dialogue to be about 4:1, and you like armor that looks more nearly-realistic than fantastic, and you think dumb trolls are okay but intelligent ogres aren't, and you think magical worlds are okay but fantasy architecture isn't, and you don't like it when italics are used in dialogue but you do like it when boldface is used, and you want it to be longer than 100 hours but no longer than 120 hours, and like games to be non-linear but only to a point, and like big cities, but only two because four is too much BUT HEY NOT THAT ONE, and you like customization but don't mind a little balance BUT HEY NOT THAT MUCH BECAUSE IT'S NOT D&D...I am terribly, terribly sorry, because we are not going to make a game just for you. We're not trying to make a game for everyone. Really, we aren't. But we're not making a game just for you and ten other angry guys with tastes that are narrower than a hallway in a camp of pygmy dwarves.

The point is if Josh's tastes of what is good gameplay is in line with the opinion of BG2 fans (which are the majority of IE fans). If yes, Sawyer is right. If not...

 

[Delterius]

But we're not making a game just for you and ten other angry guys with tastes that are narrower than a hallway in a camp of pygmy dwarves.

Would you describe yourself as someone with broad or narrow tastes, Roguey?

"We are making a game? Schizophrenia or revelation? You decide!"

Is Roguey quoting Josh or not, you decide!

Schizophrenia, naturally. In his own mind Roguey has merged with Sawyer to the point where quotes can be present as original discourse. His taste is even as narrow as Joshs own.

 

[Volourn]

"The point, in case zealots ever want to accept it, is that your tastes are not the only tastes in the world. Really, I know this may be hard to believe, but if you like playing a real-time-with-pause game set in a familiar fantasy world, and you like crossbows but don't like guns, and you like the ratio of combat to dialogue to be about 4:1, and you like armor that looks more nearly-realistic than fantastic, and you think dumb trolls are okay but intelligent ogres aren't, and you think magical worlds are okay but fantasy architecture isn't, and you don't like it when italics are used in dialogue but you do like it when boldface is used, and you want it to be longer than 100 hours but no longer than 120 hours, and like games to be non-linear but only to a point, and like big cities, but only two because four is too much BUT HEY NOT THAT ONE, and you like customization but don't mind a little balance BUT HEY NOT THAT MUCH BECAUSE IT'S NOT D&D...I am terribly, terribly sorry, because we are not going to make a game just for you. We're not trying to make a game for everyone. Really, we aren't. But we're not making a game just for you and ten other angry guys with tastes that are narrower than a hallway in a camp of pygmy dwarves."

You are an idiot. But, that isn't news.

 

[Roguey]

We're not so different, Volourn and I. We both prefer modern Bioware to any-period Bethesda.

We're not so alike either. I can't stand NWN 1/2, he can't stand DS3.

The point is if Josh's tastes of what is good gameplay is in line with the opinion of BG2 fans (which are the majority of IE fans). If yes, Sawyer is right. If not...

Are they? The last time any numbers were presented, BG and BG2 sales were roughly equal.

Torment is GOG's top selling game, with BG2 coming in at #2, which is all kinds of weird.

 

[HiddenX]

But apparently making an IE game for IE fans isn't the right thing to do. The question is, why did he decide to work on a project like that in the first place if he believes in his own mantra of RPGs needing to deliver better core gameplay?

The point, in case zealots ever want to accept it, is that your tastes are not the only tastes in the world ...

I can only speak for me:

I have no narrow taste in CRPGs (played over 300 of them - many different styles)
I like interesting tactical challenging games with enough diversity to keep up the fun.
I'm not even a special fan of D&D or IE games, but if a game is sold to me as IE game then I want one!
My taste in CRPGs: -> I like all well made ones.

 

[Rake]

The point is if Josh's tastes of what is good gameplay is in line with the opinion of BG2 fans (which are the majority of IE fans). If yes, Sawyer is right. If not...

Are they? The last time any numbers were presented, BG and BG2 sales were roughly equal.

Torment is GOG's top selling game, with BG2 coming in at #2, which is all kinds of weird.

As long as we talk about gameplay, (at least the kind of gameplay that depends on Sawyer), that PST may be the most popular IE game is irrelevant. And even if we accept BG and BG2 are equaly popular (hint: they are not) that doesn't matter so much because as far as gameplay goes they were exactly the same minus spell duels.
Still not the model PoE gameplay follows

 

[ZagorTeNej]

We are making a game? Schizophrenia or revelation? You decide!

That's an old Josh quote (modified for PoE) from the time when he was telling Fallout fans that they don't know what fun is.