Robust JRPGs like Final Fantasy?

[wolfbane]

Dragon Quest does side content better than FF in my opinion. You can check wells and find stuff in the bookcases and all of that

FF has a decent amount of environmental interactivity too, though it does depend on the game; some more than others.

Also, you may want to check the thread over. When OP refers to "robust gameplay" he is not merely only talking about side content, though that is a big part of it for sure.

Sure, DQ also has a number of entries with FFV-like job systems (or other WRPG inspired systems)
- DQIII
- DQVII
- DQVI
- DQVIII
- DQIX

(Yes I am aware that DQIII predates FFV)

 

[Machocruz]

Tried playing FF4 recently and...it's the very opposite of robust. Basically beeline to the next event trigger while engaging in lame encounters. "Dungeons" utterly lacking in sense of place or immersion, with constant boring encounters, sealed the bad deal. It's exactly the kind of JRPG op wants to avoid.

The upside is that for how supposedly influential it was on JRPGs, there were still many that came after that offered a lot more.

 

[Ash]

Final Fantasy 4 is total shit and overrated to absurd proportions by the usual suspects (retard storyfags). The game was made by a theatrefag with no earned place in a game design role. There is almost zero effort put into the gameplay outside of baseline JRPG combat standards of the time (crap), even FF1-3 offer more in that regard though I wouldn't at all recommend them. Sure there's some "innovative" touches like OMG cecil changes into a Paladin and this is gameplay! But this is basically nothing of relevance and has basis in dumb storyfaggotry than anything else. The changes it makes to the gameplay (again, nothing of real relevance) are merely a byproduct/consequence of the designer's short-sighted storyfaggot ambitions. Typical storyfaggot retard the likes of which absolutely plague gaming. I despise these people, especially when a good story adds so much to a real game as later entries (among many other games) can show. But they're too short-sighted for any of that. The important thing is to reign in storyfaggots (and likewise short-sighted people, like realismfags) and lord over them, keep them in their place as writers. Keep them the fuck away from game direction and design, the bigger picture. But that never happened, things got far out of control in the industry, and everything is now retarded and shit where you spend hours upon hours pushing buttons for no reason like a retard, but omg it is soooo cool because it is realistic, "mature" (nope), looks pretty, and deep emotional story!

Fun fact: the designer of FF4 was also the designer of Chrono Trigger.

The only saving grace of FF4 is the music, not enough to make it worth playing especially when you can just search youtube, but even then Uematsu hadn't quite hit his stride yet.

TL;DR if you have standards and understand what gaming can and has achieved, listen to Ash
If bumbling retard, listen to the others.

 

[wolfbane]

even FF1-3 offer more in that regard though I wouldn't at all recommend them.

Horrible taste. Final Fantasy 2 is the best FF I’ve played so far. The leveling system is great, the story is great, bosses are great. The only negative really is the overabundance of monster rooms.

 

[Ash]

Lol nice troll. How many have you played so far, just 1 & 2?

I am not usually one to appeal to popularity because the masses are dumb as shit, but FF2 is overwhelmingly considered to be the worst from Sakaguchi's era (1-12). For me the worst is 4, and I think 2 deserves a little more credit, but it's not a very good game when you compare it to the hundreds of amazing games available out there for reference, or even just RPGs alone.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Tried playing FF4 recently and...it's the very opposite of robust.

You know there's like over a dozen optional bosses in the game right? And they pretty much all reward the player with powerful unique items or spells. Was probably also one of the first jrpgs to involve complex scripting for boss fights, allowing for things like special counter attacks vs specific spells or actions, secondary phases, breaking the 65k hp limit, and generally a bunch of really cool bosses with neat interactions, weaknesses and strengths instead of boring hp sponges. They are admittedly mostly wasted with how much xp the player gets showered in making them over levelled for pretty much every fight in the game. But stuff like the Magus Sisters fight still gets referenced and reused to this day for good reason and it's far from the only example of a complex fight.

 

[Ash]

This is almost all like 2% of what a real game offers though broski. It doesn't make up for the absence of actual engaging level design, RPG character building strategy and choices that even shitty 2 and 3 had, navigation challenge and so much more.
What does "breaking the 65k HP limit" actually add? What relevance does that hold? NOTHING. You could simply scale down numbers (high defense or evasion) or spawn another monster in its place or second phases to boss fights, among other ways to bypass that "problem". The relevance of this "innovation" is so minimal in scale. Wow thirteen optional bosses...when that's like the ONLY optional content in the entire game (hyperbole, but it's not much) in a series often swimming in it. More complex AI scripts is the most important thing here, but it can't save a game from utter mediocrity and is like the only actual notable gameplay effort the devs made in the entire game, alongside ATB introduction I suppose. Sorry. The game is utter garbage. It's so goddamn boring I am surprised you could love it so. Chrono Trigger's illusion at least makes sense the retards fall for it as the game is jam-packed full of charm otherwise. FF4 has some but not much by comparison.

Which Final Fantasy had "Dialogue options that effect gameplay and story"?

7, 8 and 9. Not cRPG levels of dialogue option complexity, but more than enough to be notable.

 

[wolfbane]

Lol nice troll. How many have you played so far, just 1 & 2?

I am not usually one to appeal to popularity because the masses are dumb as shit, but FF2 is overwhelmingly considered to be the worst from Sakaguchi's era (1-12). For me the worst is 4, and I think 2 deserves a little more credit, but it's not a very good game when you compare it to the hundreds of amazing games available out there for reference, or even just RPGs alone.

Not a troll lol. I legitimately like II more than V. Not a lot more, but I do like it more. I really like V, but it felt way more linear than II. I do like the characters in V more than in II, and I really enjoy the Job system, but II’s system is more open and offers more freedom. I’m also a HUGE fan of SaGa, so it all kind of tracks, given that FFII is proto-SaGa. I do think I like Romancing SaGa 1 more than FFII, and I definitely like Scarlet Grace more than FFII.

 

[Ash]

2's systems are retarded come on bro. It's about endless grinding spells that take forever to level up (you literally have to grind them to get them to be useful to begin with) and beating the crap out of yourself to optimize success and power. Sure it's better than no RPG systems as there is some interesting strategy and choices involved (which spells to focus on grinding in favor of others), but it's not ideal. It's also pretty damn simple. Sure most aspects of what is present can be defined as you please but there isn't actually much there, e.g FFV has like 50 command abilities. How many command abilities in 2? I don't recall any, just base stats and magic can be influenced.

As for linearity, FFV overworld and progression is quite railroaded until world 3, where like FF6 things get very non-linear. I don't remember 2's level of linearity in detail, just that it was pretty linear and overall a bland asf game across the board.

Here is what I remember, correct me if I am wrong:

Overworld:

FF5: Pretty linear until late game. However, there are some hidden encounters of relevance (summon spells to obtain, blue magic to obtain). Late game opens up a lot. Has the occassional optional location early game like Jachol Cave. Occasionally, there will be puzzle elements to overworld navigation, such as how to access locations with the submarine.
FF2: Linear asf. Every new region there will be two locations to visit. Overworld has little relevance (no puzzle element to it, no hidden encounters to learn blue magic, no hidden locations like the void town or cave where dude tells you your stats).

Towns:

FF5: hidden passages, people to talk to hinting at optional content, pots and such to interact with for items, and so forth. Nothing amazing except maybe the town of the void, but nice.
FF2: complete garbage. The absolute bare minimum.

Dungeons:

FF5: Many absolute masterpieces, as well as some otherwise nice enaging level designs. these are as follows: Fireship, Lonka Ruins, Pyramid, Exdeath castle, Istory falls, Library of the Ancients, Ship graveyard, Deep Sea Trench, Mua Forest. Lots of unique gimmicks, complex layouts, tricks and traps, hidden passages, puzzle elements, optional encounters, really great stuff that set new standards for the series.
FF2: the standard mazes of OG FF. Fairly engaging navigation and attrition tests, but rarely if ever did anything beyond that.

 

[wolfbane]

I think you might just be dumb. That or you never played FFII.

FFII uses a keyword system to drive your next destination, so less linear than FFV. You have to figure out who to talk to with which keyword. I liked the dungeons in both. Neither of them were particular standouts in that regard tbh. I did like the dungeon in FFV where you go through the air vents. That was pretty sweet.

Jachol cave is the most pointless side content ever. Seriously a terrible example.

I couldn’t really tell you about leveling mages in FF2, since that was my lowest level of interest overall. Fists and bows are where it’s at. I really enjoyed that system more than FFV. You can similarly dumb down FFV’s system into a couple of words: just grind pointless battles to unlock new abilities, sometimes. I do like the system, but I like II’s system more. SaGa improves that even more. Not to mention II is properly turn-based, as opposed to V’s ATB. Also II lets me do fun stuff like double shields. I just personally like it more overall.

 

[Machocruz]

You know there's like over a dozen optional bosses in the game right? And they pretty much all reward the player with powerful unique items or spells. Was probably also one of the first jrpgs to involve complex scripting for boss fights, allowing for things like special counter attacks vs specific spells or actions, secondary phases, breaking the 65k hp limit, and generally a bunch of really cool bosses with neat interactions, weaknesses and strengths instead of boring hp sponges. They are admittedly mostly wasted with how much xp the player gets showered in making them over levelled for pretty much every fight in the game. But stuff like the Magus Sisters fight still gets referenced and reused to this day for good reason and it's far from the only example of a complex fight.

True, but I thought the idea of being "robust" is that there is more to do along multiple dimensions, not just more combat. That's my ideal at least. I was never a superboss guy. I'm not a mini-game guy either, but at least they are something to add variety. I will give 4 credit for having harder bosses and more resource scarcity* than 6, but I liked playing with 6's characters's abilities a hell of a lot more

I think Portrait of Ruin or Order of Ecclesia had a Magus Sisters inspired optional boss. That was a fun reference. The DSvanias were masterclass in extra, combat oriented content imo.

*PSP version, if that makes a difference.

 

[Ash]

I think you might just be dumb. That or you never played FFII.

I haven't played FF2 in...22 years. Damn time flies.

I don't recall the keyword system, nice. Though, that doesn't at all mean it is less linear across the board lol. In FFV you still have to run around talking to people in towns until you find the trigger for the story to move forward, and linearity extends to more than just that, e.g overworld and dungeons as I detailed. Nice try though.

Jachol cave is the most pointless side content ever. Seriously a terrible example.

No it really isn't. But if you want a better example, then the Town of the Void, or Shiva's secret dungeon, or all the other shit I said like blue magic opportunities.

True, but I thought the idea of being "robust" is that there is more to do along multiple dimensions, not just more combat.

I am fine with just combat, if the combat is a) very good, which in FF4 it most certainly is not, and b) not otherwise wasting my time with navigating boring shit-tier level design (see: SRPGs, which do away with that).

 

[wolfbane]

There’s literally nothing in Jachol Cave until World 3. It’s not a good example of good side content for 90% of the game. And even then it’s not actually the cave that has something useful, it’s just the entrance to something actually interesting, which is the basement of Castle of Bal

Edit:

Does Rift Town really count as side content? Does that mean that Bahamut is side content? Idk bro, feels like part of the main game to me.

 

[Beans00]

I think you might just be dumb. That or you never played FFII.

FFII uses a keyword system to drive your next destination, so less linear than FFV. You have to figure out who to talk to with which keyword. I liked the dungeons in both. Neither of them were particular standouts in that regard tbh. I did like the dungeon in FFV where you go through the air vents. That was pretty sweet.

Jachol cave is the most pointless side content ever. Seriously a terrible example.

I couldn’t really tell you about leveling mages in FF2, since that was my lowest level of interest overall. Fists and bows are where it’s at. I really enjoyed that system more than FFV. You can similarly dumb down FFV’s system into a couple of words: just grind pointless battles to unlock new abilities, sometimes. I do like the system, but I like II’s system more. SaGa improves that even more. Not to mention II is properly turn-based, as opposed to V’s ATB. Also II lets me do fun stuff like double shields. I just personally like it more overall.

Ash Only played most of these games on emulator recently, most he didn't beat. He is a classic poser/modder just looking for reasons to be autistic. Pay him no mind lol. He played doom for the first time in 2007 and is even worse with boomer shooters.

 

[Ash]

pointless

Not true! Typical gamer on the internet being wrong.

1. Skullcrusher gives you the highest AP of any repeatable encounter for world 1 (and even most of world 2), and the weaker squirrels which are piss easy to destroy grant 3 AP which is also high at this point in time. Most encounters give 1 or 2 AP. I literally just replayed the game so my knowledge here is on point. Basically, it is the grinding cave of world 1, should that be desired (if you're doing side content, then power accumulation is expected, so to some degree yes). Tents can also be stolen from Skullcrusher, which is nice when a common steal at this point in time is otherwise endless potions.
2. Most of the chests are empty yes, but in the final room there are some unopened chests.
3. It serves as one piece of the puzzle, solved in world 1. Going here and finding the dead end in world 1 is relevant to figuring out how to get into the basement of Bal castle in world 3. Bear in mind the relevance of this is sullied if you're a faggot that uses a guide, or if you're on a replay.

Is this hugely engaging, important and cool, the absolute highlight of side content in RPGs? No. But it is nonetheless relevant, not pointless.

Does Rift Town really count as side content? Does that mean that Bahamut is side content? Idk bro, feels like part of the main game to me.

Wtf? Yes and yes. Both are completely optional.

 

[wolfbane]

I don’t give a fuck about ABP grinding in World 1. It’s literally empty, save for some enemies. Not side content at all. I literally beat FFV like a week ago, so I also am quite familiar with it.

 

[Machocruz]

At any rate, you jackanapes got me wanting to get back into some JRPGs with this thread. So far I'm trying to decide between BoF 2/3/or 4, Star Ocean 2, DQ3, or Golden Sun 2. I'm leaning towards one of the BoF games because I like the character and monster designs. I have the demo for the SO2 remake on Steam, but don't know what if any changes it has and if they are good or bad ones.

 

[wolfbane]

SO2 remake is awesome, I highly recommend it! Obviously nothing can top Toriyama for character and monster design, so DQ3 is the best bet for that specifically.

 

[Ash]

All of those suck. Embrace the Fantasy that is Final.

In all seriousness I've not played all the BoFs nor DQ3. Star Ocean 2 is lame as shit (not played the remake, does actually seem like an improvement for once though) and Golden Sun 2...eh, it's objectively not a bad game, fairly engaging, but the thought of a replay kills me. Well, I actually tried a replay of it last year I think it was. It's rough how close it is to greatness but not quite there.

I don’t give a fuck about ABP grinding in World 1. It’s literally empty, save for some enemies. Not side content at all.

This is a you problem, not the game's. It has relevance, I described why, you just fail to see the merit.

Edit: ignore my creepy little stalker Beans00 there. He got owned in an argument and ever since just makes up shit about me and button parade-spams my posts. A total loser bottom-feeder degenerate with nothing better to do. Sad such a thing exists.

 

[wolfbane]

Wtf? Yes and yes. Both are completely optional.

The game tells you to get Bahamut as part of the main quest. The 4 tablet dungeons aren’t side content either

 

[Machocruz]

Hey I've been a Fantasy Final embracer since its been around. FF1 was eye opening for a young consolefag at the time, knew the world they created was special. But time for something else now. I do want to go back to some of the 2D ones eventually, with romhacks.

Going to give all the games I named a spin, just a matter of knowing which ones aren't complete trash and which to play first.

 

[wolfbane]

Tbh, I like most other JRPG series more than FF of what I’ve played so far.

SaGa, DQ, and MegaTen are all awesome and I like them more than any FF entry I’ve played.

Super Mario RPG is a great FF though.

Tales of and Star Ocean I probably like on the same level as FF. I really enjoyed SO2, and I also really enjoyed SO6

 

[Machocruz]

Obviously nothing can top Toriyama for character and monster design, so DQ3 is the best bet for that specifically.

Toriyama is a GOAT, but I don't know man. Capcom pretty stronk too. BoF will be breath of fresh air from quasi-medieval aesthetics that rule fantasy RPGs today.

 

[Ash]

The game tells you to get Bahamut as part of the main quest. The 4 tablet dungeons aren’t side content either

The game tells you about it. That doesn't mean you have to do it.

The 4 tablet dungeons aren't optional no. But I never said they were?

Tbh, I like most other JRPG series more than FF of what I’ve played so far.

Which FF have you played so far? Most JRPGs are utterly banal by comparison, not to mention low production values and animu cringe-laden. By comparison to 5-9 specifically, and to a lesser extent 10, 10-2, Tactics and 12. If of these you have only played 5, then you've still much to learn! 5 only does one thing relatively well and that is gameplay, and even then it has some issues in that regard. Still a total classic though.

 

[Machocruz]

SaGa, DQ, and MegaTen are all awesome and I like them more than any FF entry I’ve played.

These all constitute the top JRPG series to me. Nocture is perhaps the greatest of all time.