World of Darkness Are World of Darkness vampires overpowered? Were they defeated too easily in V5 lore?

[Rinslin Merwind]

"Without any weaknesses", nigga, it's called fire. It's very easy to produce, even the fucking cavemen could do it, and it works wonders against even really powerful Vampires unless they have obscenely high levels of Fortitude (which is extremely rare).

Fire is not enough, even liches have more.

The thing is, no blood-sucking predator who managed to survive for 500-odd years would ever be stupid enough to put himself into a position in which some human or even a weaker, younger immortal could torch him. Unless WW writers just decide to give him a lobotomy because they're lazy and can't figure out how to advance the metaplot without cutting every character's IQ in half.

The thing is, there no such creature that could live a life without mistake and even 500 years old vampire can make a mistake, In fact it WILL make mistakes, because 500 years living in shadow without ability to enjoy anything in life (besides occasional intrigue with other vampires) WILL drive anyone insane. You can't enjoy food, sex, books/music/media (need emotions for that), even blood would taste the same. Even intrigue will get boring after some time, because there no point in hoarding power over other bloodsucking corpses or humans for someone who can't enjoy benefits of such power or pass it down to his/her descendants. Also what kind of intrigue could be between creatures who know each other for centuries? Even if vampire hunters could not find their prey - vampire would invite them just to end his/her miserable existence as alternative to last bath in sunshine or breaching masquerade in mindless frenzy.

I understand that people are upset about direction in which plot of tabletop went and dislike Elders being mentally unstable, but (IMHO) it's logical for them to slowly being driven insane as their humanity withers away and vampire society falling apart. Maybe this tabletop will be first to have meta plot with actual end and not drag around same shit for more than 40 years. The fitting end would be either that humanity learned about vampires at large and purged them/cured them (if it is a disease after all) (and in doing so freed them from their misery) or Abel and God finally forgiving Cain and so curse is lifted.

 

[Grunker]

no it's pants-on-head-retarded to take that shit seriously

Yeah, makes sense. After all, the biggest indicator that a work of fiction is high-quality is that it has absolutely no internal consistency whatsoever and constantly breaks its own established rules.

No, wait....

vtm deep lore is anything but high quality

 

[Delterius]

We're talking about the Inner Council, which numbers only 7 Tremere,

All presumably dead. This isn't a shitty setting where you can be nuked and still walk around because vampire magic. Which is incline, by the way.

I never mentioned anything that would betray an underlying knowledge of the setting in any of its versions so there, please stop strawmanning.

That's because of how sad you are.

Someone merely pointed out that, hey, you can set up a vampire. Just explode his car or something.

Unable to comprehend that maybe, just maybe, your power fantasies aren't the pinnacle of writing you had to quickly construct a scenario to wave all the bad thoughts away. B-b-but you can't smuggle C-4 into a city, the local vampire mafia would find out about it so there's that!

Of course it was explained that, you know, nothing of said scenario makes sense. That the government is corrupt in every direction. That often it is the government itself who could be the ones carrying out such ambushes. That rival vampires are often the ones making each other blind to schemes. That in the grand scheme of time most every vampire is caught with their pants down at some point. Etc, etc. An example was given how even in V5 it wouldn't make sense: the mortals who are ambushing vampires use modern warfare and are advised if not straight up owned by high level Camarilla vampires themselves. So you focused on that. You retreated into the habitual cave of the fanboy, accused everyone else of strawmanning and started whining about how Auspex should reveal NATO bombings before they happen.

PSA: never let the fanboys out of the cage. The fans are always, always, ALWAYS the worst aspect of every fantasy setting. If the fans are happy with lore such as 'that spell i put in my house 2,000 years ago, it keeps vampire cats out so of course it can protect us from soviet drones', it means you're doing a bad job.

 

[Lambach]

because 500 years living in shadow without ability to enjoy anything in life (besides occasional intrigue with other vampires) WILL drive anyone insane. You can't enjoy food, sex, books/music/media (need emotions for that), even blood would taste the same. Even intrigue will get boring after some time, because there no point in hoarding power over other bloodsucking corpses or humans for someone who can't enjoy benefits of such power or pass it down to his/her descendants. Also what kind of intrigue could be between creatures who know each other for centuries? Even if vampire hunters could not find their prey - vampire would invite them just to end his/her miserable existence as alternative to last bath in sunshine or breaching masquerade in mindless frenzy.

You assume that creatures who have ceased being human in almost every way (specially if they're on a Path and have abandoned Humanity for a completely alien, incomprehensible view of the world, which is many of them) centuries ago would still largely be motivated by human emotions and would feel similar needs. That's clearly nonsensical.

The games always make it abundantly clear - the older a Vampire is, the less human it is and the more it's driven by motivations a human mind finds completely alien, minus a tiny handful of exceptions.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

WoD is kinda gay tbh

 

[Lambach]

All presumably dead. This isn't a shitty setting where you can be nuked and still walk around because vampire magic. Which is incline, by the way.

Yeah, it's just a shit setting in which immortals who pull the strings of all government and para-government organizations are totally unaware of what's actually happening in said organizations. So, so much better.

Someone merely pointed out that, hey, you can set up a vampire. Just explode his car or something.

You can and I never claimed otherwise. But the kind of Vampire that can be set up to have his car exploded would never (un)live to see 500 in the first place. Again, you're strawmanning because you're a complete retard trying to defend the indefensible.

That the government is corrupt in every direction.

Not in this setting. In this setting, it's corrupt mostly because it's the Vampires pulling its strings. You know, the exact same Vampires that can be taken by surprise by that same government because even though they pull its strings in secret, they're completely unaware of what the government is doing in secret.

That's your "improvement" in writing and setting, you absolute smoothbrain.

 

[Delterius]

Yeah, it's just a shit setting in which immortals who pull the strings of all government and para-government organizations are totally unaware of what's actually happening in said organizations. So, so much better.

Not in this setting. In this setting, it's corrupt mostly because it's the Vampires pulling its strings. You know, the exact same Vampires that can be taken by surprise by that same government because even though they pull its strings in secret, they're completely unaware of what the government is doing in secret.

All false. And obviously false too.

• Vampires are only one faction of supernatural entities who pull strings in government. This is old lore.
• Vampires themselves are fractured into multiple sects and clans, each with their own agendas. This is old lore.
• The Tremere are one faction within one sect of vampires. This is old lore.
• There are government forces which are not directly owned by vampires. Hence the old society of leopold. This is also old lore.

This is basic shit. I don't even need to pull splatbooks to know that you're full of it.

Repeat it with me: Auspex can't stop the predator drones. You'll feel better afterward.

But the kind of Vampire that can be set up to have his car exploded would never (un)live to see 500 in the first place.

[citation needed]

LaCroix was already over 200 years old and he was a pathetic shithead. Centuries old vampires succumb under the weight of their own ego all the time. Its almost like, you know, a staple of storytelling.

 

[Storyfag]

LaCroix was already over 200 years old and he was a pathetic shithead. Centuries old vampires succumb under the weight of their own ego all the time. Its almost like, you know, a staple of storytelling.

This is definitely true. But let's not pretend the V5 plotline was anywhere near good storytelling.

If in fact, the hit on the Tremere chantry in Vienna WAS described as set in motion by Mages or Garou or the Sabbat or any type of alliance of the aforementioned, it'd be far more palatable.

 

[Delterius]

LaCroix was already over 200 years old and he was a pathetic shithead. Centuries old vampires succumb under the weight of their own ego all the time. Its almost like, you know, a staple of storytelling.

This is definitely true. But let's not pretend the V5 plotline was anywhere near good storytelling.

Every other 'high level' monster being an omnipotent unkillable superman is the whole reason why the world of darkness settings collapse into themselves.

The problem with an overwhelming number of mortal special forces managing to destroy a tremere chantry isn't because vampires should be unkillable monsters, rather that the WoD writers were hacks and created the aforementioned issue in the first place.

Humans finding out about vampires was always supposed to be a problem for the latter. Its why there's a god damn masquerade. Dialing back the metusellahs as super saiyans bullshit is a requirement for any good version of Vampire, headcanon, homebrew or otherwise.

This is my stance on all WoD material, not just V5. Ie, its bad and always had problems.

All subsequent posts are a reaction to notions that the problem with V5 is its lack of respect to power level charts. Fuck power level charts and fuck invulnerable old fart vampires too. Together they are everything that is wrong with the WoD.

 

[Lambach]

• Vampires are only one faction of supernatural entities who pull strings in government. This is old lore.
• Vampires themselves are fractured into multiple sects and clans, each with their own agendas. This is old lore.
• The Tremere are one faction within one sect of vampires. This is old lore.
• There are government forces which are not directly owned by vampires. Hence the old society of leopold. This is also old lore.

• Cool, so it was a totally different set of supernaturals that orchestrated the bombing of the Vienna Chantry and the complete purge of Vampires from London etc. Without a single Vampire knowing about it beforehand. Makes total and complete sense, just like assuming individual WoD games are not largely self-contained and those who attempt to mix them beyond the bare minimum are doomed to failure.
• And yet, there was not one (1) informant in service to the most powerful of these Sects and Clans that could've tipped them off to the purge of London or the attack on the Vienna Chantry beforehand. 100% improved writing and setting.
• Typically regarded as the most powerful individual one, too. Funny they couldn't get one (1) informant into such a position that they could be tipped off before the attack on their leaders.
• SoL is not a government agency, lmao.

LaCroix was already over 200 years old and he was a pathetic shithead. Centuries old vampires succumb under the weight of their own ego all the time. Its almost like, you know, a staple of storytelling.

That's barely "young adult" in Vampire years, nigger. Compare him to Strauss who is implied to be 2-3 times Lacroix's age.

 

[Delterius]

So you're telling me that there are multiple factions vying for control of the world and any one of them could have backstabbed the Tremere?

Yes, I'm glad you finally understood it.

And that these dozens upon dozens of factions are constantly scheming for each other's destruction and eventually one of these schemes work out?

Exactly, you're getting it now.

Wow, thanks a lot man. I was about to say that I thought it was weird the Tremere fell for it since they are the most powerful sect. But then I thought things through and realized I was just being wrong again and letting my headcanon get in the way of logic.

No problem man! The Tremere were very powerful indeed but so is everyone else. Being one of the factions in the shadow government of the Camarilla as it continuously loses territory to the Sabbat and the Anarchs doesn't make one invulnerable to sudden changes in the balance of power.

SoL is not a government agency, lmao.

'The Vatican isn't a state' is almost as good as 'the joining of the Vatican's thousand year old archives on vampires and NATO command couldn't possibly have arranged a bombing in Vienna'. But I think you're trying too hard now.

Compare him to Strauss who is implied to be 2-3 times Lacroix's age.

>2-3 times Lacroix age.
>Only did anything about LaCroix because a neonate did all the work.

Damn son your 500 year old vampires are so very impressive.

 

[Storyfag]

That's barely "young adult" in Vampire years, nigger.

And that is one of the largest issues with WoD. Realistically speaking, PCs have no way of coming to the top over the course of a Modern Nights chronicle, as their age will bar them from any high office. Even starting during the Victorian Nights will mean that by the 1990s they are Ancillae at best. Messy. Too stretched.

Compare him to Strauss who is implied to be 2-3 times Lacroix's age.

Who did he piss off to end up in LA, of all places? What did he do? Piss into Etrius' milk?

 

[Wesp5]

Regardless of the details for the V5 lore change, to me the intention is the problem. Am I wrong or was this not very obviously done to get the old vampires out of the way so that the Thinbloods are the new kings? And coming back to Bloodlines 2, any of the three basic Thinblood disciplines shown there seemed to me to be more powerful than many of the regular clan disciplines. It this the same in the V5 rules?

 

[Lambach]

*some dumbfuck shit*

"Multiple supernatural factions are fighting for control of the US government, and yet the one which was the oldest and most experienced in backend shadow politics was completely bamboozled and left out of the loop".

Fuck me, that massive V5-fanboy IQ is just pouring through.

>2-3 times Lacroix age.
>Only did anything about LaCroix because a neonate did all the work.

Damn son your 500 year old vampires are so very impressive.

"Vat iz vIdEO gAeym? "

Besides, any scenario the PC chooses benefits him, so he's smart not to risk his own ass directly (i.e. how Vampires who survived for 500+ years handle shit).

- PC chooses Anarchs -> both the Kuei-Jin and LaCroix are dead, meaning it will likely fall unto the Tremere (i.e. Strauss) to hand-pick the next Prince directly under their influence and control
- PC chooses to go solo -> same, except Anarchs don't have the valuable asset that is the uber-overpowered PC, so the Tremere-chosen Prince can mop them up more easily
- PC chooses LaCroix -> same as above
- PC chooses Kuei-Jin -> admittedly the worst-case scenario for ol' baldy, but it still opens up the Prince spot that will be chosen by the Tremere, although that Prince will have to fight on two fronts

Maybe Troika just accidentally stumbled into this, but it's a pretty good illustration of how these truly old, experienced Vampires set their cards so that they are never in risk of actually losing - they always win, sometimes more decisively, sometimes less.

Until faggots like Delterius start crying about how one of the central themes of the entire metaplot is bad and the equally brain-dead dangerhair writers decide to listen to them and shit on everything because they are utterly talentless dregs who were at the bottom of their class at whatever shitty writing school they went to and couldn't get a better-paying job, lulz.

 

[jungl]

vamps in WoD have huge weaknesses they are forced to go sleep during the day like babys. Need blood to get up every night and constantly have to control themselves from chimping out. Being 500 year old doesn't make a difference

superman beats goku deal with it

 

[Harthwain]

The thing is, there no such creature that could live a life without mistake and even 500 years old vampire can make a mistake, In fact it WILL make mistakes, because 500 years living in shadow without ability to enjoy anything in life (besides occasional intrigue with other vampires) WILL drive anyone insane. You can't enjoy food, sex, books/music/media (need emotions for that), even blood would taste the same.

Actually, blood should remain the biggest draw for a vampire. Because a vampire is very much like an addict whose drug is blood. If anything, the craving for blood ought get even stronger with time. Which offers yet another reason to drive old vampires insane (the loss of humanity and the Beast).

Maybe this tabletop will be first to have meta plot with actual end and not drag around same shit for more than 40 years. The fitting end would be either that humanity learned about vampires at large and purged them/cured them (if it is a disease after all) (and in doing so freed them from their misery) or Abel and God finally forgiving Cain and so curse is lifted.

I doubt that's going to happen, because it means ending the universe. The whole point of "dragging around same shit for more than 40 years" is to print money.

The games always make it abundantly clear - the older a Vampire is, the less human it is and the more it's driven by motivations a human mind finds completely alien, minus a tiny handful of exceptions.

I am not sure if I agree. I would describe an old vampire as a "very intelligent psychopath" rather than an "alien mind". And it isn't that hard to think up the motivations for such a vampire. Power comes to mind first. Partly because by staying in power a vampire can ensure his own survival. This requires intelligence or inherent strength (or both). Other than that - blood, obviously, but this can easily come with power. Seeking a cure or roots behind the curse could be another reason (and give a vampire something to do that isn't trivial).

Fuck power level charts and fuck invulnerable old fart vampires too. Its everything that is wrong with the WoD.

Indeed. In my opinion incredibly smart/powerful vampires should never enter the scene themselves. That way you side-step the problem with old vampires being invulnerable, while maintaining the sense of omipotence they are supposed to generate in the World of Darkness.

 

[Storyfag]

"Multiple supernatural factions are fighting for control of the US government, and yet the one which was the oldest and most experienced in backend shadow politics was completely bamboozled and left out of the loop".

Please step into the szlachta pit now, Usurper fanboi.

 

[Lambach]

I am not sure if I agree. I would describe an old vampire as a "very intelligent psychopath" rather than an "alien mind".

Actually, Vampires who abandon Humanity for a Path (e.g. the Path of Metamorphosis popular among the Tzimzisce and the like) are quite literally described as completely alien in terms of their psychology. "Very intelligent psychopath" fits Elders with Humanity scores 1-3, but the older the Vampire is, the more likely it is it will abandon Humanity and embrace one of the Paths, as it needs some moral code to keep the Beast at bay, but the regular human moral code grows more incomprehensible to it with each passing decade (because guess what - it's not human anymore).

Indeed. In my opinion incredibly smart/powerful vampires should never enter the scene themselves. That way you side-step the problem with old vampires being invulnerable, while maintaining the sense of omipotence they are supposed to generate in the World of Darkness.

A-fucking-men. Until WW decided to go full retard, these true Elders were always just that - a backdrop, a piece of the metaplot, something whose influence you can feel, but you would never directly encounter, barring some truly extraordinary circumstances.

It's why this trend of killing them off via the most ridiculous, mundane, contrived plot points is so fucking dumb and lazy.

 

[Delterius]

and yet the one which was the oldest

once again, [citation needed]

both the Kuei-Jin and LaCroix are dead, meaning it will likely fall unto the Tremere

no, it means the anarchs rule everything again as they have for 100 years

same, except Anarchs don't have the valuable asset that is the uber-overpowered PC, so the Tremere-chosen Prince can mop them up more easily

like they didn't for 100 years since the fall of LA Camarilla

admittedly the worst-case scenario for ol' baldy, but it still opens up the Prince spot that will be chosen by the Tremere

which, again, didn't happen for 100 years since the Camarilla lost LA

the game goes out of its way to say that the only reason the camarilla have any power in LA is because the anarchs were fighting each other when the kuei-jin invaded and you have the gall to tell me that Strauss is an alien super mega mastermind of magic and that muh metaplot shows that everything that happens is to his benefit because.... ????

you really, really like to be wrong don't you?

Repeat it with me: Auspex can't stop predator drones, invulnerable super saiyan vampires is bad writing, the tremere don't actually own the entire world. You'll feel better, I promise.

how one of the central themes of the entire metaplot is bad

Spoiler

yes the metaplot of WoD is bad

 

[Lambach]

Please step into the szlachta pit now, Usurper fanboi.

I was talking about Vampires in general, not specifically the Tremere. It's a well-established piece of WoD lore that Vampires are the force from the shadows manipulating human society in a far larger share than any other supernatural group.

Now revoke your facepalm rating immediately, or I'll be forced to take drastic action.

 

[J1M]

the goddamn Tremere Inner Council, Vampires established as the real power behind the Ventrue throne of the Camarilla

That statement alone disqualifies vtm lore deep delve. The game works as was originally intended. Then it got retarded

But the woke writers wanted the blood mages to be led by a witches coven. Didn't much care how they got there.

 

[Storyfag]

Now revoke your facepalm rating immediately, or I'll be forced to take drastic action.

FABRICATE DIEM, PVNC

The vohzd is ready for you.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

You assume that creatures who have ceased being human in almost every way (specially if they're on a Path and have abandoned Humanity for a completely alien, incomprehensible view of the world, which is many of them) centuries ago would still largely be motivated by human emotions and would feel similar needs. That's clearly nonsensical.

The games always make it abundantly clear - the older a Vampire is, the less human it is and the more it's driven by motivations a human mind finds completely alien, minus a tiny handful of exceptions.

Ah, yes, classic "they want power for reasons you can't get cuz you are human", ages as fine as milk after week under the sun. Even fey in pathfinder have more logical goals and some of them are literal flaming balls.

 

[Delterius]

the goddamn Tremere Inner Council, Vampires established as the real power behind the Ventrue throne of the Camarilla

That statement alone disqualifies vtm lore deep delve. The game works as was originally intended. Then it got retarded

But the woke writers wanted the blood mages to be led by a witches coven. Didn't much care how they got there.

the fact that the new lesbian harem tremere are based in milwaukee is the most disturbing part of it, tbh

Spoiler

 

[Lambach]

invulnerable super saiyan vampires is bad writing

I'm not going to bother with the rest of the post, because it's just more of that extremely impressive 60-IQ V5 fanboying that's as tiring as it is pathetic, but I gotta reply to this one.

There are no "Invulnerable Super Saiyan Vampires", and there never were any, in any of the VTM editions throughout the years, barring Caine himself. In fact, I'd argue the trend was always the exact opposite the further in time you go. Methuselahs being described as nigh-omnipotent gods on one page, then getting effortlessly Diablerized on the very next by some "literally who" retard (even some fucking Antediluvians got this treatment, like [Lasombra]).

However, the way it used to be when the metaplot still made even the tiniest sense was that they didn't need to be invulnerable to survive for hundreds, thousands of years, they were just so good at manipulating others into doing their bidding from complete obscurity that nobody other than their Childer were even aware they existed, not to mention absolute absurdities like mortal agencies finding their exact location and drone bombing them by complete surprise.