World of Darkness Are World of Darkness vampires overpowered? Were they defeated too easily in V5 lore?

[Delterius]

IMO it should be lethal in every direction. Everyone should be a glass cannon. Be they humans with guns or vampires. Its ok that a vampire can just stand there and just take a peashooter to the torso. But just like Jack said: a shotgun to your head and you're gonne kiddo.

 

[mondblut]

the thing about vampires is that if humans find out where you live they can just set it on fire during the daytime and there's a really, really good chance you're fucked

How can humans find out where you live when you can change into mist? Nigga, find a hole 100 yards beneath the earth and slip through the cracks.

 

[Lambach]

hows the war on drugs going again

Remind me when was the last time someone detonated 500 pounds of cocaine in the middle of a city block to kill just one guy.

 

[Lambach]

IMHO unkillable Vampires without any weaknesses are essentially mary sues of monster world, it sounds like fantasy of edgy necrophiliac teen made up in dreams during fervor. It's fucking boring and illogical.

"Without any weaknesses", nigga, it's called fire. It's very easy to produce, even the fucking cavemen could do it, and it works wonders against even really powerful Vampires unless they have obscenely high levels of Fortitude (which is extremely rare).

The thing is, no blood-sucking predator who managed to survive for 500-odd years would ever be stupid enough to put himself into a position in which some human or even a weaker, younger immortal could torch him. Unless WW writers just decide to give him a lobotomy because they're lazy and can't figure out how to advance the metaplot without cutting every character's IQ in half.

 

[Delterius]

hows the war on drugs going again

Remind me when was the last time someone detonated 500 pounds of cocaine in the middle of a city block to kill just one guy.

motherfucker an average cocaine smuggling operation is measured in tons and you're telling me an immortal vampire who's been a criminal since the age of piracy can't procure one fat american's worth in C4 in LOS ANGELES wtf

 

[rusty_shackleford]

good luck smuggling when some dude controls the police and other relevant authorities

hows the war on drugs going again

isn't the typical complaint that too many druggies are locked up?
by this measure, it's going very well.

 

[Lambach]

motherfucker an average cocaine smuggling operation is measured in tons

Even better, lul. Smuggling a ton of coke is just another Wednesday. Smuggling a ton of explosives is something that will trip every single alarm of every single law-enforcement/intelligence agency outside of active war zones.

 

[Delterius]

motherfucker an average cocaine smuggling operation is measured in tons

Even better, lul. Smuggling a ton of coke is just another Wednesday. Smuggling a ton of explosives is something that will trip every single alarm of every single law-enforcement/intelligence agency outside of active war zones.

an immortal vampire with super speed and strength and friends with the power of invisibility, who wields criminal connections going back 300 years can't smuggle, steal or create a bunch of c-4 because law-enforcement is completely uncorrupted and totally on top of all the shit that goes on with the 50+ ongoing supernatural gang wars and bilderbergian conspiracies centered just around los angeles

the metusellahs have found their match in the TSA

 

[Lambach]

an immortal vampire with super speed and strength and friends with the power of invisibility, who wields criminal connections going back 300 years can't smuggle, steal or create a bunch of c-4 because law-enforcement is completely uncorrupted and totally on top of all the shit that goes on with the 50+ ongoing supernatural gang wars and bilderbergian conspiracies centered just around los angeles

the metusellahs have found their match in the TSA

I wasn't talking about Jack, tho. I was replying to this post:

Can he magically sense if you put 500lb of explosives in the trunk of a car that you parked on the street you know he'll be driving on? There are so many ways that mere mortals could defeat a superhuman just by being more organized.

Even you recognize that defeating one super-old immortal requires another super-old immortal, not some puny human.

 

[Delterius]

I now realize that I gave you too much credit. I assumed you were talking about the Sarcophagus in Bloodlines. In reality you're part of a conversation that managed to misunderstand even nu-WoD lore.

Organized mortals aren't a threat to vampires because they are one guy smuggling C-4 around. Organized mortals are a threat to vampires because A) they are the government and B) other vampires and entities are often behind those organizations. This is old lore too. The first Inquisition was set up by vampires using mortals as shock troops in their feuds against other vampires. It grew out of control when all the true faithers began overwhelming every vampire sect. The second Inquisition is far above the influence of one prince who has officer chunk in his backpocket. Its elders using special ops from the entire world in their proxy wars. And they do in fact bomb unsuspecting vampire havens during the daylight.

 

[Anthedon]

At least this thread has turned into another proper Vampire lore/autism discussion now that the game is dead.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Even better, lul. Smuggling a ton of coke is just another Wednesday. Smuggling a ton of explosives is something that will trip every single alarm of every single law-enforcement/intelligence agency outside of active war zones.

"You don't need C4 for that, brother" tells us Timmy

 

[Lambach]

I now realize that I gave you too much credit. I assumed you were talking about the Sarcophagus in Bloodlines. In reality you're part of a conversation that managed to misunderstand even nu-WoD lore.

Organized mortals aren't a threat to vampires because they are one guy smuggling C-4 around. Organized mortals are a threat to vampires because A) they are the government and B) other vampires and entities are often behind those organizations. This is old lore too. The first Inquisition was set up by vampires using mortals as shock troops in their feuds against other vampires. It grew out of control when all the true faithers began overwhelming every vampire sect. The second Inquisition is far above the influence of one prince who has officer chunk in his backpocket. Its elders using special ops from the entire world in their proxy wars. And they do in fact bomb unsuspecting vampire havens during the daylight.

Except according to the nu-WoD Lore, the vast majority of Elders are tripping balls in the Middle East (known as "The Beckoning" officially) and have largely abandoned their positions of power. And who the fuck are these "Elders" with so much power and influence that they can catch the goddamn Tremere Inner Council, Vampires established as the real power behind the Ventrue throne of the Camarilla, completely unawares with their pants down?

I'm not misunderstanding anything, nu-WW just couldn't find a way out of the (admittedly bloated) metaplot without completely wrecking it and leaving a million plot holes in their wake.

 

[Storyfag]

the goddamn Tremere Inner Council, Vampires established as the real power behind the Ventrue throne of the Camarilla

Truth be told, the Tremere Elders are the youngest among the Camarilla Clans, and senior only to the Giovanni among all Clans. If anyone should fall, it's them. It should be written more intelligently tho.

 

[Delterius]

Except according to the nu-WoD Lore, the vast majority of Elders are tripping balls in the Middle East (known as "The Beckoning" officially) and have largely abandoned their positions of power. And who the fuck are these "Elders" with so much power and influence that they can catch the goddamn Tremere Inner Council, Vampires established as the real power behind the Ventrue throne of the Camarilla, completely unawares with their pants down?

You answered your own question. The vampire world is unravelling because of the Beckoning. The Eldest who kept the system working for centuries have all been called to Gehenna. Their heirs only know the most superficial aspects of the masquerade. 'Baron tier' Elders who compete over this power vaccuum. 200+ year vampires old enough be to too conservative but not yet wise enough to realize that you can't just isolate yourself from the modern world. This is why the Camarilla is failing, because its leaders are gone and its middle managers are either cutting their ties with everyone else or using mortal organizations to stab each other in the back. The old school Tremere remnants in Venice suffered most from the Beckoning because of their rigid command structure. So they were the first to be backstabbed by everyone else.

 

[Storyfag]

Sadly, the Beckoning is internally inconsistent. It is supposed to be a cyclical event. Well, then the "current cycle" has plenty of 4th generation Vampires active. This either means the Antideluvians will soon wake up to sire more of the 4th generation, or the majority of the Methuselahs who wandered off into the Middle East will soon return to their positions of power.

 

[Lambach]

The old school Tremere remnants in Venice suffered most from the Beckoning because of their rigid command structure. So they were the first to be backstabbed by everyone else.

I don't remember it being mentioned that the Inner Council suffered in particular from the Beckoning. The fact that they were all present in Vienna, and not the Middle East, would also confirm that it's just one of those "I don't know how to advance the metaplot, so let's just assume these centuries-old, magic-wielding predators with superhuman intellect were actually complete retards all along" things. Also, Thaumaturgical Rituals that can be cast even by Vampires significantly less powerful than the Council should by themselves have been enough to prevent something as mundane as a fucking drone bombing.

The only thing that could give it some plausibility in terms of internal consistency is if it were an inside job orchestrated by someone in the Council, although I don't remember that being brought up in any official sources.

EDIT:

Found this post from some dude online just now:

Ok, so a super-duper covert group that exists within multiple world government agencies, especially the carefully vetted and heavily monitored security forces and investigative bureaus, somehow figured out that the location in Vienna was a major hive of vampire activity. This group then somehow arranged for a U.S. missile strike targeting the chantry, blamed the destruction on terrorist activity, and got away with it.

All this time, not one of the many mystical protections so much as flickered, not one of the elders so much as got a nudge from their in-clan Auspex, and not one of the many mortal and ghoul servitors across the city got even so much as a whiff of activity. The governments from which the manpower and supplies were stolen also didn't notice anything, investigate, or apparently even care.

Yup, it was truly magical.

Tl;dr - if you attempt to justify nu-WoD lore in any way, you're kinda retarded, I'm sorry to say.

 

[Grunker]

the goddamn Tremere Inner Council, Vampires established as the real power behind the Ventrue throne of the Camarilla

That statement alone disqualifies vtm lore deep delve. The game works as was originally intended. Then it got retarded

 

[Lambach]

The game works as was originally intended. Then it got retarded

And I am very much upset about it and I'll fucking vent here, goddamn it.

 

[Delterius]

I don't remember it being mentioned that the Inner Council suffered in particular from the Beckoning.

Do you honestly need your hand held through this? The oldest vampires were called to Gehenna. That's a fact. It doesn't bear repeating. Every single time.

Thaumaturgical Rituals that can be cast even by Vampires significantly less powerful than the Council should by themselves have been enough to prevent something as mundane as a fucking drone bombing.

How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man? A shotgun to your head and you're gone. GTFO with your dumb ass 'vampires as super saiyans and being bombed by the US military should mean jack' shit.

Found this post from some dude online just now:

This is absurd! Why didn't their auspex detect the missiles!!!

jesus christ this is the eternal confirmation that the only people who can make WoD lore even worse are its fans

 

[Lambach]

Do you honestly need your hand held through this? The oldest vampires were called to Gehenna. That's a fact. It doesn't bear repeating.

Uh-huh, so why was the Council still present in Vienna and not the ME? A lot of those guys were 800-900 years old.

How many times do we have to tell you old man, a shotgun to your head and you're gone. GTFO with your dumb ass 'vampires as super saiyans' shit.

As many times as I need to tell you that actual Rulebooks exist that describe Thaumaturgical Rituals specifically designed to prevent that kind of shit and it's pants-on-head retarded to believe those were not used to protect the global Tremere HQ.

This is absurd! Why didn't their auspex detect the stinger missiles!!!

Strawmanning is the lowest form of argument, brah. Let me just reiterate for you and the other extremely slow people:

Tl;dr - if you attempt to justify nu-WoD lore in any way, you're kinda retarded, I'm sorry to say.

 

[Grunker]

As many times as I need to tell you that actual Rulebooks exist that describe Thaumaturgical Rituals specifically designed to prevent that kind of shit and it's pants-on-head retarded to believe those were not used to protect the global Tremere HQ.

no it's pants-on-head-retarded to take that shit seriously

 

[Lambach]

no it's pants-on-head-retarded to take that shit seriously

Yeah, makes sense. After all, the biggest indicator that a work of fiction is high-quality is that it has absolutely no internal consistency whatsoever and constantly breaks its own established rules.

No, wait....

 

[Delterius]

Uh-huh, so why was the Council still present in Vienna and not the ME? A lot of those guys were 800-900 years old.

A lot of them moved to the middle east. A lot of them were actively resisting the Beckoning. Its that simple.

As many times as I need to tell you that actual Rulebooks exist that describe Thaumaturgical Rituals specifically designed to prevent that kind of shit and it's pants-on-head retarded to believe those were not used to protect the global Tremere HQ.

That's the saddest part. You look at all the retarded power trips in old Vampire and consider them ok. Its not retarded that one 1000 year old ravnos guy could by himself destroy one third of the world, ie just one of the bad endings from old vampire. What's bad is that the Tremere Council's ritual to keep vampires out didn't stop the drone bombings. Its silly. The fans are always, always, always, ALWAYS the worst part of everything fantasy. Never let them out of their cage. It is incredible how retarded you have to be to take these splatbooks seriously and here you are, doing just that.

Strawmanning is the lowest form of argument, brah.

Ok, so a super-duper covert group that exists within multiple world government agencies, especially the carefully vetted and heavily monitored security forces and investigative bureaus, somehow figured out that the location in Vienna was a major hive of vampire activity. This group then somehow arranged for a U.S. missile strike targeting the chantry, blamed the destruction on terrorist activity, and got away with it.

All this time, not one of the many mystical protections so much as flickered, not one of the elders so much as got a nudge from their in-clan Auspex, and not one of the many mortal and ghoul servitors across the city got even so much as a whiff of activity. The governments from which the manpower and supplies were stolen also didn't notice anything, investigate, or apparently even care.

This is literally the post you quoted. And it takes issue with:

• 'Somehow' the security forces of the US and NATO arranged a bombing in Vienna.
• 'Somehow' hacking into schreknet gave the police state of US and NATO the location of the tremere chantries.
• 'Somehow' seeing people's auras and some old 1000 year protection spells didn't help against a NATO bombing.

And let me remind everyone that this conversation started because you thought it was impossible for the US government to smuggle explosives into an US city.

 

[Lambach]

A lot of them moved to the middle east. A lot of them were actively resisting the Beckoning. Its that simple.

Which ones? We're talking about the Inner Council, which numbers only 7 Tremere, so it should be pretty easy for you to tell me which ones left for the ME and which stayed in Vienna.

And let me remind everyone that this conversation started because you thought it was impossible for the US government to smuggle explosives into an US city.

I never mentioned the US government or that it would be "impossible", just that if you attempted to do so, a local 500-year-old Vampire would almost certainly know about it. Stop strawmanning. You don't have to publicly advertise your impressive IQ of 60 to everyone, you know.