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NWN2: Storm of Zehir expansion (now confirmed)
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Amon Gesoto
 
 


Joined: 18 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jasede wrote:


I think everyone needs to chill out a little and hope that there'll be a nice balance between well-written NPCs (and I don't care if they're able to join or not) and your self-created party. Obsidian has shown they can do good stuff half the time, so let's see what becomes of this.


I don't think "hope" has a place in the Codex lexicon.
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Vaarna_Aarne
 
 


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amon Gesoto wrote:
Jasede wrote:


I think everyone needs to chill out a little and hope that there'll be a nice balance between well-written NPCs (and I don't care if they're able to join or not) and your self-created party. Obsidian has shown they can do good stuff half the time, so let's see what becomes of this.


I don't think "hope" has a place in the Codex lexicon.
Oh, it's there. It's synonymous with Van Buren.
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Silellak wrote:
Annie Carlson wrote:
I think the fact that the Codex is ARGUING OVER FIGHTING GAMES broke my brain somehow.

Street Fighter 2 was too short on choices & consequences. "Do I want to kick, punch, or throw a fireball" is not a valid choice.
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Warden
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 1097
Location: In your nightmare.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It'll be fine as long as they don't force the custom-made companions down my throat; i.e. I want to be able to choose not to have any of them and at the same time being able to complete the game without mega cheesy tactics. This can be accomplished by, like I said 100 times already, splitting the earned xp between party members.

I have a clear preference towards pre-made, standard joinables.. not because I'm some retarded bitch who craves for OH MY I WANT DEEP DIALOGUES WITH MY NPCS AND... ROMANCES!!.. but because there's something special about encountering a stranger on the road who's offering his help, and who is not YOU. Yes, I enjoy some initial dialogues to discover something about his personality and the casual comments are fine - but please, don't bother me for the whole game with your philosophies; SHUT THE FUCK UP.

I must also say that I have a slight phobia regarding joinable NPCs after playing through the NWN2 OC - "Oh no, will this NPC also stay in the party after I tell him to leave 35647 times!? *shivering* "
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Amon Gesoto
 
 


Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 71
Location: My chair

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vaarna_Aarne wrote:
Amon Gesoto wrote:
Jasede wrote:


I think everyone needs to chill out a little and hope that there'll be a nice balance between well-written NPCs (and I don't care if they're able to join or not) and your self-created party. Obsidian has shown they can do good stuff half the time, so let's see what becomes of this.


I don't think "hope" has a place in the Codex lexicon.
Oh, it's there. It's synonymous with Van Buren.


Non-existent in other words?
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Lumpy
 
 


Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 4731

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jasede wrote:
Well, of course you have good point, Lumpy. But I see this add-on as a return to some really old dungeon-crawl playstyle - but coupled with Obsidian's writing.

I think everyone needs to chill out a little and hope that there'll be a nice balance between well-written NPCs (and I don't care if they're able to join or not) and your self-created party. Obsidian has shown they can do good stuff half the time, so let's see what becomes of this.

I wouldn't mind a good dungeon crawler, but I don't think it will work with NWN2. A dungeon crawler should be turn based, and have a small number of classes and abilities, requiring intelligent use of every one of them. NWN2, though, has a fuckton of classes and abilities, many of them worthless. The challenge in a dungeon crawler should be almost entirely what you do with your character, while in NWN2 it amounts to making a better character.
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SimpleComplexity
 
 


Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 610

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disklike the party systems. I have played both NWNs and it wasn`t necessary to put any points in picklocking or stealing, because your partymember(s) already had enough skills to open any chest or door. If you would pick the thief class than you would have two thiefs in your team, but only one is necessary to picklock some wooden boxes. So one thief becomes useless except for fighting the creatures. But i think thats just bad design. I can`t think of any other reason... really. You should also be able to play alone without having forced NPCs following you just to lead you to the next boring story cutscenes.
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Vaarna_Aarne
 
 


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 2586
Location: Raoh's majestic buttcheek

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amon Gesoto wrote:
Vaarna_Aarne wrote:
Amon Gesoto wrote:
Jasede wrote:


I think everyone needs to chill out a little and hope that there'll be a nice balance between well-written NPCs (and I don't care if they're able to join or not) and your self-created party. Obsidian has shown they can do good stuff half the time, so let's see what becomes of this.


I don't think "hope" has a place in the Codex lexicon.
Oh, it's there. It's synonymous with Van Buren.


Non-existent in other words?
Exactly.
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Silellak wrote:
Annie Carlson wrote:
I think the fact that the Codex is ARGUING OVER FIGHTING GAMES broke my brain somehow.

Street Fighter 2 was too short on choices & consequences. "Do I want to kick, punch, or throw a fireball" is not a valid choice.
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Starwars
 
 


Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 717
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

New interview with the lead of SoZ: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=191562

Starts at level 3 and will go until about level 15. Though they have said elsewhere that we may go into epic depending on how much exploring we do.
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Volrath
 
 


Joined: 21 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good interview imo even if I associate tabletop gaming with turn based combat.
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Shannow
 
 


Joined: 15 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jasede wrote:
What are you even talking about? Finally they make a real, old-school, Codex-proof RPG with a party you make yourself and now you guys still complain! Now you suddenly -want- Bioware-style companions with a story and a romance.


It isn't turn-based and most Codexers would probably prefer good 2d graphics (e.g. ToEE) to the clunkiness of NWN2 3d. So "real, old-school, Codex-proof RPG" is probably a "little" optimistic.

And just because one or two guys complain doesn't mean that "the codex" opinion changed. There never was a codex opinion and there have always been people who prefer one style or another.
You should know this by now.
I like companions if they are done right and I am not required to suck up to them to unlock stupid metagame features. I also like building my own party for power-gaming and diversity.
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Gragt wrote:
The Codex either brings the worst out of everyone or attracts the worst of mankind.
Andyman Messiah wrote:
I remember a similar thread a couple years ago. It was much funnier.
Morkar wrote:
Just installed the wedding dance 2 days before. It is mentioned that you can broke or miss quests if you not get married as swift as possible. Can someone approve this?
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Shannow
 
 


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starwars wrote:
New interview with the lead of SoZ: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=191562

Starts at level 3 and will go until about level 15. Though they have said elsewhere that we may go into epic depending on how much exploring we do.

Is there something wrong with my eyes or are those screenshots from NWN1?
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Gragt wrote:
The Codex either brings the worst out of everyone or attracts the worst of mankind.
Andyman Messiah wrote:
I remember a similar thread a couple years ago. It was much funnier.
Morkar wrote:
Just installed the wedding dance 2 days before. It is mentioned that you can broke or miss quests if you not get married as swift as possible. Can someone approve this?
Quote:
ich hab den tinnitus innen augen - ich seh nur pfeifen
Donations to my Paypal account
I'm killing time, time is killing me.
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Hümmelgümpf
Formerly known as Lestat


Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 2942
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One of the ways we are doing this is with our new Party Conversation system, crafted by another NWN2 veteran, Anthony Davis.

Party Conversations offer different player responses and reactivity based on the numerous choices players make when creating and levelling-up their party members. This includes race, class, alignment, gender, deity, attributes and more.

Hello, Mr. Davis? Could you explain this in a little more detail?


Last edited by Hümmelgümpf on Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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-Pavlos-
 
 


Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 69

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shannow wrote:
Is there something wrong with my eyes or are those screenshots from NWN1?

I'm sure it made sense to the editor : /.

Quote:
As players explore Samarach and the Sword Coast and interact with its many fascinating characters, the player will reap the benefits, and drawbacks, of their choices

Choices having a negative effect on the progression of a character? :hug:
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serch
 
 


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 497
Location: Behind mistary, in front of conspirancy

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lestat wrote:
Quote:
One of the ways we are doing this is with our new Party Conversation system, crafted by another NWN2 veteran, Anthony Davis.

Party Conversations offer different player responses and reactivity based on the numerous choices players make when creating and levelling-up their party members. This includes race, class, alignment, gender, deity, attributes and more.

Hello, Mr. Davis? Can you explain this in a little more detail?


Davis was a Panzer commander, so I expect maximum collar grabbing interaction this time, putting Boware's Mass Effect to shame.
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Vaarna_Aarne
 
 


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
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Location: Raoh's majestic buttcheek

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

serch wrote:
Lestat wrote:
Quote:
One of the ways we are doing this is with our new Party Conversation system, crafted by another NWN2 veteran, Anthony Davis.

Party Conversations offer different player responses and reactivity based on the numerous choices players make when creating and levelling-up their party members. This includes race, class, alignment, gender, deity, attributes and more.

Hello, Mr. Davis? Can you explain this in a little more detail?


Davis was a Panzer commander, so I expect maximum collar grabbing interaction this time, putting Boware's Mass Effect to shame.
MAXIMUM collar-grabbing? Damn, it's an obsession for Obsidian to outdo Bioware.
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Silellak wrote:
Annie Carlson wrote:
I think the fact that the Codex is ARGUING OVER FIGHTING GAMES broke my brain somehow.

Street Fighter 2 was too short on choices & consequences. "Do I want to kick, punch, or throw a fireball" is not a valid choice.
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Warden
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007
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Location: In your nightmare.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's wrong with that interviewer? So condescending and negative; "will this be so bad as in the original NWN2, will interior areas suck again, isn't it bad to go back to IWD and BG style instead of going forward..?" What the hell?
On the other hand when they did an interview regarding biowhore's DA it was all roses and hearts; "Oh, yeah: gritty, dragons - we love it, we love it we looove it." Pathetic.

Starting at level 3.. ah, not that bad. Will we at least have a "tutorial" which will level us up from lvl 1 to 3 or will 3000 xp drop magically from the sky as soon as I load the game? Please, include such a "tutorial" for those of us who like to start at level 1.
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MetalCraze
Formerly known as Skyway


Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 10953
Location: 51st State

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starwars wrote:
New interview with the lead of SoZ: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=191562

Starts at level 3 and will go until about level 15. Though they have said elsewhere that we may go into epic depending on how much exploring we do.


I just wish those level 3 - level 15 will go at BG1 speed rather than at NWN1 speed where it's basically a... level grinding?

Shannow wrote:
Is there something wrong with my eyes or are those screenshots from NWN1?


from NWN2 OC
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Dark Individual
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about epic loot? Epic piles of loot ala NWN 2 OC and MotB were not really liked by anyone. It's more fun to work your way to a fancy new sword instead of changing it after every battle for an inconsequential increase in damage.

That said, I hope we will mostly be wielding +1 items.
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Warden
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dark Individual wrote:
What about epic loot? Epic piles of loot ala NWN 2 OC and MotB were not really liked by anyone. It's more fun to work your way to a fancy new sword instead of changing it after every battle for an inconsequential increase in damage.

That said, I hope we will mostly be wielding +1 items.


Agreed. Finding really good items should be really really difficult.
And yes, they've said it'll indeed be a low-magic (specifically low-magic loot) adventure in a topic on the NWN2 boards.
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Anthony Davis
Obsidian Entertainment Developer
Obsidian Entertainment Developer


Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 445

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lestat wrote:
Quote:
One of the ways we are doing this is with our new Party Conversation system, crafted by another NWN2 veteran, Anthony Davis.

Party Conversations offer different player responses and reactivity based on the numerous choices players make when creating and levelling-up their party members. This includes race, class, alignment, gender, deity, attributes and more.

Hello, Mr. Davis? Could you explain this in a little more detail?


I've been busy so I didn't have time to check this thread.

I am still implementing and tuning the Party Conversation System so all of this is subject to change depending on how the gameplay works or technical limitation we encounter.

Here is the example though.

Here is my party:

When I start the game, I select (or create) what the Aurora/Electron engine refers to as the Player Created Character. This operates exactly like NWN1, NWN2, and NX1.

Player Created Character is NOT functionally the same thing as the Party Leader, though they are frequently the same creature.

I select Grubs, my half-orc monk.

Once in NX2, we have access to the Party Creation Screen.

To complete my party, I select a cleric , a smarty pants mage, and a rogue to cover everything else.

So my party now looks like this:

Grubs the Monk (PCC and also currently the leader has a BLUFF of 5)
Oswyn the Cleric (has DIPLOMACY of 10)
Karak the Mage (has LORE of 10)
Reylene the Rogue (has BLUFF of 10)


I'm going to get a little bit more technical here, but it has to be done.

Every conversation node has a series or replies. Each reply has or can have conditional scripts that fire that determine if the reply node should appear. It worked this way for NWN1, NWN2, and NX1.

For example, if I put a conditional on a reply node that says APPRAISE > 5, that reply node will ONLY appear if the player character talking to the NPC has an APPRAISE skill greater than 5.

Conditionals can be ANY script out there as long as it returns a TRUE or a FALSE.

Got it?

Moving on...

Let's pretend we talk to some dude, and his conversation tree looks like this:

>Sup, what can I do for you guys?
1. Hey, nothing.
2. (If BLUFF less 10) Gimme your money. !Failure!
3. (If BLUFF greater than or equal 10) Gimme your money. !Success!
4. (If DIPLOMACY greater 5) We come in peace!
5. (If LORE greater 8) I have heard of you!

(The words between the !'s represent comments that would not be shown in game)

Whatever, you get the idea. Talking to this guy will bring up the new Party Conversation System.

The new Party Conversation System looks similar to the Quickchat Screen from NWN2, except for a series of tabs that allow you to switch between current party members.

In our case, it is Grubs, Oswyn, Karak, and Reylene. Grubs is currently the active/highlighted tab because he is the party leader.

Grubs has the following dialog options:
1. Hey, nothing.
2. (If BLUFF less 10) Gimme your money.!Failure!

If I click on Oswyn's tab, I am in effect allowing Oswyn to talk for the party. I will then see Oswyn's dialog options:

1. Hey, nothing.
4. (If DIPLOMACY greater 5) We come in peace!

Karak:
1. Hey, nothing.
5. (If LORE greater 8) I have heard of you!

And finally, Reylene:
1. Hey, nothing.
3. (If BLUFF greater than or equal 10) Gimme your money. !Success!


Flipping through the tabs will allow you to see what options each character might have if you chose to allow them to speak for the party.

Remember, my example is weak sauce compared to what the real designers do, afterall, I'm a programmer.
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Solohk
 
 


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh finally! Dialog skills are no longer for your PC only. Sounds great, Anthony.
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Badgermaster
 
 


Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solohk wrote:
Ahh finally! Dialog skills are no longer for your PC only. Sounds great, Anthony.


Agreed. I definitely like the sound of this.
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Xor
 
 


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there any way you could show your party member's relevant skill totals as part of the Party Conversation System? Because I can easily see myself forgetting who has the highest, say, diplomacy in my party, and I'd hate to fail a check because I chose the wrong party member to answer.

Other than that, it sound like a great idea.
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Jasede
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Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, good, but hardly ground-breaking.

Hey Anthony, can you suggest giving charactes "personality soundsets" like in Wizardry 8? It's not even that simple. Let me explain:

In Wizardry 8 you create a party of 1-6 adventurers. You select a race, a class, a portrait, a name, and, here's the twist, a "personality" for each one. The "personality" is more than just a sound-set - it'll influence party-banter (certain personalities have quips they exchange, for example) and at key points your party-members will say some line to comment on what's happening, be it something as trivial as someone in the party dying or as moving as you getting plot item #3.

It's the only game I know that had this - and I'll tell you something, it -really- made your created party -so- much more memorable. But it's only an option if you have many different and good voice-actors and a sweet writers because it's a huge amount of work for a gain that might be comparatively subtle.

Just a suggestion!
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MetalCraze
Formerly known as Skyway


Joined: 02 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Anthony: actually this sounds interesting, pretty ok even. I just want to see how it will work in the game.
if only all rpg devs were willing to discuss their mechanics with actual players :bethesda:

btw - while you still have time - make exp grinding go slower, more BG1 way. or do anything that will make the game -longer-, but still entertaining.
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