How to keep turn-based rpg komabt from becoming boring?

Andhaira · Feb 12, 2008

One reason many dev's go for real time kombat is because to the general audience, turn-based can become boring. (PoR: Ruinsof Myth Drannor crpg for example)

The old games, (gold box, ultima, etc) avoided this because those games hardly had any animations. However in this day and age, animations can make turnbased combats drag (wizardry 8 for example is usually recommended with a wizfast patch). Some people found ToEE combat tedious as well.

I personally like TB combat in crpg's a lot, as do many hardcore rpg'ers. But how to convine the general popular\ce? IMO including both modes is NOT the way to go (as arcanum proved)

sheek · Feb 12, 2008

Make it good.

Meaning, make it challenging but balanced, and make it strategic, give players options and force them to make choices. Make every action have consequences so you can't fuck around or just click through turns waiting for something to happen.

That's all.

Animations are just ways of conveying information, they're nice but they're not important.

Starwars · Feb 12, 2008

Provide lots of options to customize how the turnbased combat plays, how fast/slow you want it, have enemies take turns at once etc etc.

Have lots of choices for the character, with no appearant "win option" for every single battle. Serious thought should go into balancing the game and different character builds.

This goes for most combat systems, but design combat encounters so that they feel special, memorable and overall challenging. Don't put in encounters just for the sake of having action there.

It need not be "graphics whore mode", but have satisfying animations that makes you feel glad when you kill something.

JarlFrank · Feb 12, 2008

Including both modes *is* the go, if you manage to do it *right*, as in, make both balanced and don't make one of them just a half-assed afterthought. Adding real-time combat so the fights against low-level enemies get less tedious might be good, or just adding it for variation. But to make both combat modes good and exciting, you need to spend more developing time, thats why nobody ever does it properly.

Another way to make it interesting is to include a great wound system similar to Dwarf Fortress. The combat there is hilarious and never gets old because of that. What else does it need? Challenge. Fucking challenge. Don't make it a walk through the park, make it a journey through hell and back again. Include one "easy" mode for those easily frustrated and one "hard" mode for the really hardcore. Add awesome animations for the graphic whore kiddies.

So, what else? Well, make the combat system not suck, then it will appeal to everyone who likes turnbased combat and the kiddies will like it because it looks awesome. It doesn't matter if like the combat in the game, they just have to buy it so we can finance the development of the sequel. That's all. They'll never like turnbased anyway, so why bother, just make it in a way that appeals to us hardcore RPG freaks and make the graphics nice enough so the kiddos buy it too.

cardtrick · Feb 12, 2008

Make animations fast or skippable. I'm playing Wizards and Warriors now, and although it's inferior to Wizardry 8 in almost every other way, I think I like it better simply because swing/recoil animations are minimal and skippable so that combat proceeds roughly 10 times as fast and actually stays fun even when fighting large groups.

nik2008ofs · Feb 12, 2008

Andhaira said:
IMO including both modes is NOT the way to go (as arcanum proved)

Including both modes is the way to go, as Might and Magic 6 to 9 proved.

Gnidrologist · Feb 12, 2008

All these suggestions are nice, but i don't think that general public hates TB because it's not strategic or feature ritch enough. It's because general public is mostly retarded and for them real time = realistic = cool. Becoz ya know you live in real time not in turns lolzzorz.
Think those tards who express their hate towards any kind of TB would prefer Jagged Alliance to Fallout because of better implementation of TB combat? Of course not. They would hate both games equally and go play Mass Effect instead.

sheek · Feb 12, 2008

Gnidrologist said:
All these suggestions are nice, but i don't think that general public hates TB because it's not strategic or feature ritch enough.

Well yeah, I'm talking about what I like, but why should I care about the general public?

It's because general public is mostly retarded and for them real time = realistic = cool. Becoz ya know you live in real time not in turns lolzzorz.

Not just that, but also lots of people want to feel they are elite, that they can use their superior skillz (reflexes basically) to win. Everybody thinks they can do better, have an advantage over the average 'schmuck' gamer because they are more naturally talented or something - that's the mentality that Counter-strike and all the actions games are based on. Of course not everyone is above average but the delusion that you are is what drives it. In reality to become good at those games you just need to put enough mindless hours in and anybody with a lack of a social life can do it. None of them will admit it, they all think it's because of natural superiority.

Winning by understanding the rules, by micromanagement or long-term planning just doesn't have the same immediate emotional pay-off. They want to see the results of their efforts right away.

HanoverF · Feb 12, 2008

Include a monkey with the game so the mouth breathers have something to play with during combat.

On second thought, it should probably be a coupon good for a free monkey.

Walkin' Dude · Feb 12, 2008

I do hate long animations with turned based combat. They should be shortened or skippable. I do want to see who is moving, and it should be clear what sort of attack someone is using, but get me the information quickly.

Get rid of easy fights. If a fight can be won by simply selecting move---->attack over and over, it is not worth fighting. Make the fights involve terrain, give enemies definite strengths and weaknesses. Make each decision matter.

Don't make me fight 20 goblins. Mix up the types of bad guys in a given encounter. Provide ranged attacks, spells or tech, melee fighters.

Make the environment useful--let me shove someone off of a cliff. Have people hiding behind arrow slits. Give me doors I can close to cut off reinforcements.

Give fights a clear objective besides "kill everyone in sight".

Gladi · Feb 12, 2008

Bright day
Give me ability to skip animations, while adding a list of things which happened previously, so if I need I can go throught turns and see where it went to hell.

Also please do not jsut add HP endlessly. Repeating the same action for hundreds turns because both me and my oponent have milliards of HPs and hit only in range of tens of millions is pretty-much anti-thesis of fun for me.

Red Russian · Feb 12, 2008

During the enemies turns', they should have a popup of some hot chick so one can masturbate whilst waiting for your turn. Some good exercise right there.

Make animations fast or skippable. I'm playing Wizards and Warriors now, and although it's inferior to Wizardry 8 in almost every other way, I think I like it better simply because swing/recoil animations are minimal and skippable so that combat proceeds roughly 10 times as fast and actually stays fun even when fighting large groups.

Fuck that drug addict with the yellow shirt in Fallout 2. Walking ever so slowly to his destination, all buffed up on some drug or shit. What's worse is the character *has* a fucking running animation. It's just he never uses it for some reason. Well, almost never.

EDIT: My vote also goes for making animations and movement faster. Challenge and interesting combat will also make for a lovely non-boring TB combat.

JarlFrank · Feb 12, 2008

Red Russian said:
During the enemies turns', they should have a popup of some hot chick so one can masturbate whilst waiting for your turn. Some good exercise right there.

We could call it "Turn-on based combat".

Human Shield · Feb 12, 2008

All enemies move at same time. Make AI for them to act like squads and it is as fast as real-time (faster with adjustable animation speed).

Red Russian · Feb 12, 2008

Destructible scenery will also break dull moments a TB game might have. That anticipation of throwing a grenade into a building hoping that all the floors would come crashing down is a great feeling.

Murk · Feb 12, 2008

Human Shield said:
All enemies move at same time. Make AI for them to act like squads and it is as fast as real-time (faster with adjustable animation speed).

That would interfere with possible combination spells/skills, unless you want to include a "combo" feature.

d&d reference - wizard blasts grease removing a PC's dex modifier and the rogue then goes to sneak attack because the duder's "flat footed" or something.

if it all went at the same time you can't plan for tactical strikes like that...

Claw · Feb 12, 2008

I'm sure that's not an unsolveable problem. A compromise might be necessary, so the result wouldn't necessarily be the same as pure turnbased, but would that be inacceptable?

Walkin' Dude · Feb 12, 2008

Claw said:
I'm sure that's not an unsolveable problem. A compromise might be necessary, so the result wouldn't necessarily be the same as pure turnbased, but would that be inacceptable?

See Infinity Engine. It is a completely different experience than turn-based. Especially when it comes to party control.

Murk · Feb 12, 2008

Not necessarily - but I think a compromise might tune down the tactical options of combat - which is fine if you don't want it too engrossing.

I do definitely agree with a "skip battle animation" option similar to how some of the Fire Emblem games went about it, or at least have it be quick.

fastpunk · Feb 12, 2008

Andhaira said:
How to keep turn-based rpg kombat from becoming boring?

Put some hot coal under your seat... combat will be steaming hot! :wink:

Andhaira · Feb 12, 2008

Human Shield said:
All enemies move at same time. Make AI for them to act like squads and it is as fast as real-time (faster with adjustable animation speed).

Thats how eschalon did it.

And yeah, the infinity engine method was very inniovative and a great compromise; but see in the end nothing beats turnbased. Nothing beats clicking the mouse and seeing your guy walk up and wack the other guy.

Destroid · Feb 12, 2008

Don't jrpgs have turn based combat? Are they not far more popular than western rpgs with real time combat?

Cimmerian Nights · Feb 12, 2008

Are you guys fucking kidding?
TB is so conducive to beer drinking, it's like a given.
Move, sip, move, strategize, sip, move, piss, move...

Panzer General 2 and a some cold bottles of St. Paulie Girl, go together like chocolate and peanut butter, like cigarettes and coffee, like strippers and blow, like Major Blackheart and ballgags.

Andhaira · Feb 12, 2008

Destroid said:
Don't jrpgs have turn based combat? Are they not far more popular than western rpgs with real time combat?

Yes! jrpg's use VERY quick animations...which are somehowalso plesant to look at.

Walkin' Dude · Feb 12, 2008

Destroid said:
Don't jrpgs have turn based combat? Are they not far more popular than western rpgs with real time combat?

Yes, but they tend to rely on very simple combat. There is no movement. Also, I believe the sort of turn-based system advocated here involves things like action points, allowing more than one thing to be done on a turn.

The newer JRPGs also seem to be moving away from turn-based. I think the most recent Final Fantasy automated much of the combat.

How to keep turn-based rpg komabt from becoming boring?

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