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KOTOR: Two Opposing Views

Volourn

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These are some player reviews I found at Gamespot about the game. I chose one that hated the game; and one that liked it to see two different views. Unfortunately, only one negative review to be found; and it was pretty crappy. I'll let you judge the merits of both...

This person hates SW:KOTOR with a passion:


http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/rpg/starwa ... id=1475684



This person likes SW:KOTOR with a passion:


http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/rpg/starwa ... id=1475742
 

Vault Dweller

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Common, Volourn, this proves nothing. The guy who hates it is a moron who can convince people only in the fact that he's stupid. "Your" guy is overly enthusiastic, everything is cool, great, and awesome. "Wow, I can turn the game on and off. Isn't that just awesome!" He does not sound like a guy who's ever played PC games and thus has no credibility here. May be the game is good, may be it's not, but let's wait for an intelligent opinion to find out.
 

Volourn

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Like Is aid, that was the only negative view I can find at Gamepsot. I fI could have found a more legit negative view there; i would ahve.

I'm not trying to prove anything. All I did was post their reveiws so everyone can make their own minds up. He isn't "my guy". And, if you read the positive review completely you would have surely noticed it was more than "WOW, I can't turn this game off".

I think it's funny how you refer to the one with the positive to view as being unintelligent just because he really like the game. He gave his opinion, he give reasons for that opinion, and he gave examples of said opinion. What's so unintelligent about that? I forgot. He liked a BIO game. :roll:

Don't worry, if a negative review is posted that is intelligent and cohernet; I'll gladly post it.
 

Araanor

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Volourn said:
I'm not trying to prove anything. All I did was post their reveiws so everyone can make their own minds up.

You think anyone will come to any other conclusion than that the negative review is by a moron?
 

Volourn

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No; but like I said; that was the only negative review at Gamespot I could find 9all others are 9+). If a neagtive view that is also intelligent is put up; I'll gladly post it so we can see a balanced view. It wasn't like I doctored the review; or chose it because the guy was an idiot in some silly attempt to prove how great KOTOR is. It was because it was the only negative review I found there. Perhaps, when more rveiews are put up then I can add an actual negative review that actually is believable. Don't balme me for the lack of 'em.

Anyways, the fact that a certain someone called the positive review write unintelligent basically on the fact he likes the game is kinda lame.
 

Vault Dweller

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Volourn said:
I think it's funny how you refer to the one with the positive to view as being unintelligent just because he really like the game. He gave his opinion, he give reasons for that opinion, and he gave examples of said opinion. What's so unintelligent about that? I forgot. He liked a BIO game. :roll:
Ok, you want proof? Here it goes:

The guy said:
So varied....so much replay potential derives just from the vast differences each generated character can be
Uhh, it has 3 (three) characters: figher, ranger, and thief.

On your character setup screen, you will see the "damage potential" of wielding certain weapons, based on whether you're using them in your primary hand, both hands, etc. Very cool.....The greatest thing is this: If you've queue up your attacks, you can "pan" the camera around the combat, which is GREAT when utilizing melee weapons
And you have to wonder why I asked for more intelligent review. He had 3 things to say about combat: you can see the stats of an equipped weapon, party member can't die in combat, you can load up attacks and then look at yourself slashing things. GREAT!

Best game since Halo, so far. Dare I say better than Halo? Maybe so.
Oookay. I will make sure to mention in my ToEE review that it's probably better then Quake. :roll: I know he's talking about XBOX, but still...

So, overall it does not sound very intelligent. He likes the game, he's happy, I'm happy for him, and that's all we can learn from the "review". He describes nothing, not character generation, not combat, not dialogues, not any detail that allows you to relate to his position and views, he just says that everything is great, awesome, and cool.
 

Volourn

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1. Yes, it has 3 basic character classes. Plus, the jedi classes. Plus the skills, and feats. Plus, the force powers. Not to mention the differences of actually playing the game.

2. I agree he could have gone into further detail about how combat works out,a nd I definitely don't like the fact that party members can't die in combat which I ahve complained about. It is silly. Then again, I never said the review was perfect.

3. Actually, as far as dialogue, and playing the game goes. He does go into some detail. Refer to the section where he talks about his wife,a ndhim had completely different experiences in handle the same siutuations.

What did you expect? A 4 page report like IGN? Seriously, it's an user review. It's not going to be extremely detailed.

I guess should post this aprt of the review since you seem to be ignoring it:

And for the best part of the game: REPLAYABILITY: My wife played for about 3 hours prior to me coming home from work and hijacking the Xbox and HDTV. She sat and watched me play, and commented on how "different" our two games evolved. She played as a female soldier, and I'm a male Scout. Certain interactions with NPC's were successful for me, where hers were not, and vice versa. And the outcome affected how much XP we were rewarded, whether we leaned toward the light or dark side, etc. Example: We were to obtain a Sith uniform. Both my wife and I succeeded, but in TOTALLY different means...totally different methods were utilized. Basically, how we've moved from point A to point B has been totally different. I've aquired different items and completed some side missions she wasn't even offered. Vice versa holds true.

Once again, it's like you expect it to be a a ten page professional review. Or more importantly, you nat confirmation that BIO makes crappy games. That's cool.
 

Vault Dweller

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Volourn said:
Yes, it has 3 basic character classes. Plus, the jedi classes. Plus the skills, and feats. Plus, the force powers.
It depends on implementation. IWD2 did not have that much replay value, despite having all these feats, skills, and classes. I'm not saying KotOR is the same way, but the reviewer did not provide any info on that beside his usual: it's great!

Actually, as far as dialogue, and playing the game goes. He does go into some detail. Refer to the section where he talks about his wife,a ndhim had completely different experiences in handle the same siutuations.
Hello? She was playing a figher, he was playing a ranger. I certainly hope that KotOR has some occasional conversation and quest checks based on at least the class. But once again, he did not specify what was so different. If 50% and more was different, it's good, if 10-15% was different, it's no big deal.

What did you expect? A 4 page report like IGN? Seriously, it's an user review. It's not going to be extremely detailed.
I expected a review, no matter how short, that actually tells me something about a game instead of saying that combat is great, tutorial is awesome, interface is the best ever, npcs interaction "shines like no other", and storyline is very cool. I want to know what exactly is cool, what makes it awesome, and why does he think its great. And no, I don't need 4 pages review. You wanna know what I consider a good user review? Here:

triCritical said:
Well I went out and bought this game anyway, mainly because I have been expecting Sea Dog's 2 for the last 1.5 years now. I would say that the most glaring problem with the game is indeed combat. I would disagree with the person that said stats were not an issue, because this is blatantly incorrect. As a matter a fact the only thing that makes combat different from one part to the next is stats. Combat is exactly like it was mentioned in the above excerpt block, occasionally dodge and fire your gun and then wait for opening and swing back. However depending on your stats you will either live or die against your opponents. This game does indeed play like an action game, and there is a bit of twitch, but stats do remain crucial. They are so crucial in fact that stats seem to be the only thing besides weapon upgrades that will determine if you character will succeed in combat or fail. The character building system is not very complicated or large, but most of the stats are for sailing, which brings us to what this game is really about. Did I mention the potions... I guess its better I don't.

Its seems that this was a pirate sim turned MW like RPG. I can't help but feel that the bulk of the design effort was made for the sailing and then they added the ability to go on land. If I remember correctly the original Sea Dog's did not have the ability to go on land. The ship combat is actually done pretty well, and for the most part it is a whole lot less annoying then combat on land. I have yet to board another ship or have to deal with something like mutiny, but this is were the strentht of the game is, IMO. The game as far as I can tell is very non-linear and pretty much set up like MW. You have a main quest but no will force you to do it. And like MW, you can pretty much have a fun time in the game without really doing any quest. For instance, if your want to play a smuggler you can just go from island to island smuggling contraband and never touch any of the quest. Well with the exception of some of the first quest that they force you to do.

I think for its non-linearity and pretty fun ability to go out and sail the game is somewhat worth the money. Furthermore I think when they converted it to Pirates of the Carribean then added more stuff to do on the islands, and in way highlighted the weakness of this game and that is combat. Still combat does depend on stats and is pretty much just as mundane and frustrating as NWN's with a whole lot less moves then MW. For crissakes they don't even have a sidestep key, and that IMO is unforgivable. Finally my last gripe is this game feels like a console port. Its not like MW, which most XBOX users felt was a port. Instead this game feels like it was a XBOX game and somebody on a tight bugdget decided to swing it over to the PC. IMO this is why the land based combat just sucks, because consoles just suck, and now the PC players are limited to what those fucks that own SatansBox have

probably have not played nearly as long as the guy from gamespy, but I would argue that its not the story of the game, or the quest themselves which try to be interesting, but rather playing the game. This is why it hurts the game so much that the land based stuff is such a sham. Sailing is indeed a lot of fun and if you are trading, what is fun is actually getting the goods, going from island to island, avoid hostilities, or creating them if that is what you do, and then making a profit. So yeah I guess he is right that there is no Baldur's Gate 2 Joinable NPC which gives you some pathetic story and tells you to go on some sidequest, they are rather normal. However, like I said I have not played this game long enough to find it boring. Who know maybe after 20-30 hours of gameplay I may find the sailing boring. Still there seems to be enough character building as well as ship improvements to keep me hooked for a while. I think I saw a total of 10 ships, which is still not as much as I was expecting but there is a level difficulty to overcome which can only be over come with the character building.

As for the combat being action oriented. Its worse then that, it might as well be phased based ala the old wasteland, because the twitch aspect really plays no role. I mean you block, jab, block, jab over and over and over again. The only thing that can give you an edge is leveling up and better weapons. So it still has that sort of thing going for it. And when I say you block, jab, block, jab I am not exaggerating, there is no sidestep, there is a dodge, which I only use to fire a pistol and any other tactical movement will most definately get you killed. As a matter a fact if this game did not have the non-linearity, rpg aspect, and the whole sailing thing going for it, it might just be the worst game ever. The land combat is that bad. However, I would at the same time say that as bad as land combat is, its no worse then NWN's, which it to had some of the worst combat I have ever seen in an RPG. I think comparing this games land portion to the NWN OC is a fair assumption. Still unlike NWN there is non-linearity, the ability to actually play a role, and a definite sense of exploration, at least early on. I can imagine that if every island looks like every other island, then I will be very dissapointed, but I have only seen three islands and so far there is not much difference, but then agains I do not know how much difference to expect in the caribbean.

Finally all the islands do not trade the same stuff, and each island has different contraband. You do not even need to go to every island to figure this out. It tells you in one of the in game FAQ screens. The guy was just blatantly telling the NON-truth. And it just hurts his credibility since a lot of his other gripes are true, and it should be sufficient to justify the score. I think this game is for someone that has a good rig, and wants some good non-linear action, likes playing a pirate, or a smuggler or a sea captain and would like to see what there computer is capable of after playing geneforge for 8 months straight. It is dissapointing, but no more then the NWN OC. And I think I can stand by that claim.
 

Volourn

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Guess what? I never compared the fellow's review. Not once. I agree, that Tri's review is better; but then again; I never disputed that fact. But, once again, that doesn't mean the said reviewer is not intelligent. Perhaps, he didn't go into exact details; because he didnt want to spoil the reader more than he had too.

He was playing a ranger? That's interesting....

You can't even review a review properly, it seems.

Of note he gives reasons why he likes the battles (action queue), npc dialogue (no converation the same (i'm sure that's exaggerated knowing crpgs as I do), and replayability (the fact that they had obtaine a sith uniform in completely different ways). If you also need to know, he also doens't praise the game compleetly. Just look at the graphics section so please; the review was just fine.
 

Spazmo

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Oh for Chrissake, Volourn, if you don't stand by either one of those reviews, why the fuck did you post them in the first place? If not to tell us that public opinion is in favor of KOTOR, what purpose did posting these have? Were you trying to introduce us to the concept of reader reviews? God, this is the most pointless thread I've seen in ages.
 

Volourn

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I posted it for the reason stated. I want to post one positive, and oe negative user rveiew of both so we can see both sides. Unfortunately, there was only one negative review so I was stuck with the unbalanced view.
 

Vault Dweller

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Volourn said:
He was playing a ranger? That's interesting....
Wasn't he the one who played a scout? Isn't it basically a ranger, just like a soldier is a figher?

You can't even review a review properly, it seems.
You lost me here. Is it in reference to the scout-ranger thing or something else?

he gives reasons why he likes the battles (action queue), npc dialogue (no converation the same (i'm sure that's exaggerated knowing crpgs as I do), and replayability (the fact that they had obtaine a sith uniform in completely different ways)
Yes, I know, and that's why I called the review not very intelligent because action queues don't describe combat, conversations are not supposed to be the same :?, and we have no idea how exactly they've got the uniform (if one stole it, and another bought it, it's no big deal) and how important the uniform quest is. If it's a major part of the main quest, I expect it to be done in 3-4 different ways, if it's a minor quest done creatively, then it's a good thing deserving a praise, but as it stands now, it's a mystary, and since the purpose of a review is to shed some light on a game and we are still in the dark, the review is not intelligent. Still disagree?
 

Volourn

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It is true that nhe doesn't explain things as in much detail as he could like say Tri did; but I think for such a Gamespot review I don't it was as bad as being "unintelligent". Basically, on this issue, I think you were overly harsh in your criticsm.

I wouldn't say a scout is anything like a rnager. They aren't known for being animal lovers... As for my comment about unable to review a reviewer; it was not unimportant - just a snide remark on you being heaviliy critical on a user made review. No biggie.

lso, just to point out, I'm not defending his reveiw because he like KOTOR. In fact, I can point out a "semi professional" review that praises the game yet disgusts me as it is really pathetic.

http://www.unlimitedlives.com/games/abs ... 1057978138

Now, that's an example of a pathetic yet positive review. All I saying is that the reveiew I linked while not perfect; isn't unitelligent just as detailed or exact as it could be.

Anyways, I've been told this is a pointless thread; so perhaps we should stop.
 

Vault Dweller

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Volourn said:
It is true that nhe doesn't explain things as in much detail as he could like say Tri did; but I think for such a Gamespot review I don't it was as bad as being "unintelligent". Basically, on this issue, I think you were overly harsh in your criticsm.
In the spirit of Christmas, and after careful considerations, I wil agree that I was overly harsh calling it unintelligent and will call it merely a pointless manifestation of questionable excitement :lol: Happy now?

just a snide remark on you being heaviliy critical on a user made review.
When people post something in a public place, it automatically becomes a subject of criticism, is it not? Basically he offered his opinion to be examined and evaluated and that's what I did.

Anyways, I've been told this is a pointless thread; so perhaps we should stop.
Well, it was entertaining and I thank you for keeping me company :)
 

Volourn

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LOL :lol:

Ok, call it as ye will. Ye,s public palc epublic criticism; however that goes for reviews of reviews as well I would think. :wink:

Agreed.
 

Skorpios

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When people post something in a public place, it automatically becomes a subject of criticism, is it not? Basically he offered his opinion to be examined and evaluated and that's what I did.

Why didn't I find THIS quote earlier? Damn you Godwin!!!!

:P
 

DarkUnderlord

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Araanor said:
Volourn said:
I'm not trying to prove anything. All I did was post their reveiws so everyone can make their own minds up.

You think anyone will come to any other conclusion than that the negative review is by a moron?
I dunno about everyone, but I know I certainly feel the need to play a sports game.

Personally, I like this review from amazon.com:
Jedi outcast was the shiznitz, I don't care what anyone says. Any star wars game that allows me to run around and hack ppls arms off with my light saber is an A+++++ game. And now there's something potentialy better on the horizon !!

Old republic looks very promising. If the wookies are as bad a$$ as Klye in Jedi outcast it's gonna be ON. 2 wookies and a sith knight, that's all I'll need !!
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Volourn said:
1. Yes, it has 3 basic character classes. Plus, the jedi classes. Plus the skills, and feats. Plus, the force powers. Not to mention the differences of actually playing the game.

1.) If you'll read all the words there, you'll notice he's talking about replay value based on character creation. The key word in his first sentence in that paragraph is initial.

Now, since there's only three classes, we can conclude the following:

  • Either:

    a.) Three is a very large number to the writer.
    b.) Eye color is gosh darn important to roleplaying, as is hair color, picking a face, and all that other stuff.

Pick one, because neither one of those choices makes the user out to be anything more than your average fluff swiller. Picking hair color has about as much role playing potential as picking the color of your light saber. It's just eye candy.

2. I agree he could have gone into further detail about how combat works out,a nd I definitely don't like the fact that party members can't die in combat which I ahve complained about. It is silly. Then again, I never said the review was perfect.

I personally like the part where he talks about how cool it is to sit back and work the camera while the combat is going on. In fact, he claims that's the greatest part about the combat. Fairly pathetic when the best thing about a combat system you can tell someone is that you have to do so little that you can just work the camera and see which angle makes the animations look the best - as opposed to being involved in it!

3. Actually, as far as dialogue, and playing the game goes. He does go into some detail. Refer to the section where he talks about his wife,a ndhim had completely different experiences in handle the same siutuations.

Ummmmm.. Basically, he's saying the dialogue is just like every other Bioware game, with the typical choices of:

  • Friendly reply
  • Smart ass reply
  • Evil reply

And of course, it's all the same reply.

Once again, it's like you expect it to be a a ten page professional review. Or more importantly, you nat confirmation that BIO makes crappy games. That's cool.

I'd like to know what those totally different means were, considering the source. After all, three classes isn't vast differences. It sounds like his Word of the Day Calender[/u] for that day had the word replayable on it.
 

Astromarine

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I wish people here would FUCKING STOP comparing games against checklists. The game is either implemented good or isn't. Gothic 2 has exactly the same type of advancement. 3 classes, 3 advanced classes. Of course, I'd bet Gothic 2 is much more replayable than this, because in G2 the game allows for really (as opposed ot cosmetically) different choices. That's great, and that's why I have G2 and not this. But please, for the love of every single deity that existed since men first thought that asking a rock to stop lightning was a *really good* idea, STOP saying "3 classes == TEH SUCK".
 

triCritical

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Astromarine said:
I wish people here would FUCKING STOP comparing games against checklists. The game is either implemented good or isn't. Gothic 2 has exactly the same type of advancement. 3 classes, 3 advanced classes. Of course, I'd bet Gothic 2 is much more replayable than this, because in G2 the game allows for really (as opposed ot cosmetically) different choices. That's great, and that's why I have G2 and not this. But please, for the love of every single deity that existed since men first thought that asking a rock to stop lightning was a *really good* idea, STOP saying "3 classes == TEH SUCK".

I been on endless debates about Gothic, and the one thing that the supporters always seem to conclude, is that its not that much of an RPG. So what is Gothic? A fairly large, ambient action game with stellar AI and a good story. Thats fine Gothic is what it is. Bioware does not make action games, they are most certainly hack and slash, but not action. And as far as I know they still have not mastered the linear RPG, either. And they don't have AI going for them either, so what do they have? They have roleplaying. So maybe the critic should be a little more crtical of the roieplaying aspects then in a DeusKatana, or Gothic. And I have to agree, its week for an alleged hardcore RPG to only have two kinds of characters, and one that a mesh of the other two.
 
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Actually;
A) There are three basic classes. Two of them are non-combat or non-traditional combat. My Scout has only broken out his lightsaber about a dozen times because I can make dronez do my bidding, and can then use kill drone ( a force power) on them.
B) There are two different endings, and about at least two different endings to every quest in the game. And those two endings are radically different.
C) True, the combat is a bit uninteractive at times, but it is more or less true to d20, and even if it is uninteractive it is sometimes fun to watch.
Also, by true to d20 I mean tactical, something that Gothic lacked.
D) It is a PC game. Console people who play it will only play it for mini games, which are thankfully sparse.
E) Gameplay differs between the two sides of the force. It does, and shut up till you play it and show me other wise. Many of the quests are the same, yet the outcome is always different for the two sides if you do it properly.
Again- TWO DIFFIRENT ENDINGS. RADICALLY DIFFIRENT.
F) Probably the main problem is that it *feels* like NWN's story in many places. An evil, advanced conquering race that is on the verge of extinction, a turn to darkness....yet this is more visually imaginative, with more likeable characters, much better graphics, less annoying play style, and an all around much better game. When I play it, I find the similarities to be more a redemption for NWN's plot than anything else.



And for those of you who will not play it ****SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER****






THe main character is Darth Revan with a new personality. In the dark ending, your char embraces your Revan side, and you once again become the Lord of the Sith. I have not yet played the light side, get back to me in a few days.
But that is defiantly an improvement from NWN.
 

Malraz Alizar

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Mars are alive! Audio design by Yuki Fujikawa.

That would have been a good ending for Total Recall on the NES. I guess we just didn't have the technology back then...
 

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