KOTOR: Two Opposing Views

[dipdipdip]

Actually;
A) There are three basic classes. Two of them are non-combat or non-traditional combat.

Which is silly, considering they force you into "boss" fights, and a one-on-one duel, even.

 

[Voss]

Thats it? Thats their big twist?
Excuse me while I froth at the mouth and bang my head against the wall.
Recycled plot from one of their own games, mixed liberally with a plot point from a related game, and totally negate one of the major themes of the SW universe.
Talk about lowering the bar on RPGs.

Gah. And how...
oh nevermind. I can fit a star destroyer through some of the plot holes with this.

 

[dipdipdip]

Thats it? Thats their big twist?
Excuse me while I froth at the mouth and bang my head against the wall.
Recycled plot from one of their own games, mixed liberally with a plot point from a related game, and totally negate one of the major themes of the SW universe.
Talk about lowering the bar on RPGs.

Gah. And how...
oh nevermind. I can fit a star destroyer through some of the plot holes with this.

Aye. This was the "maj0r plot twizt" I'd spoken of in a different thread. My thoughts exactly.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

I guess you are talking about Total Recall.
But I did like the game. Many of the locales where well done, as where many of the side quests. Not to menion 1 or 2 great characters.
It is diffirent. By the time you reach 1 on 1 duels you are a Jedi class, and no longer 1 of the 2 non combat classes. Frankly though, I used my computer and Repair skills throught the entire game.

 

[bossjimbob]

I think it's cute when a positive comment is tossed into the open about this game, the hardcore fanatics jump on it as if anyone really cares that the "stat system isn't as deep as such-and-such" or the character customization "isn't as varied as this-other-game." Is it really so hard to just let some people enjoy the game for what it is without micromanaging every comment?

Is this game totally unique and/or groundbreaking? Probably not. Do many people find it enjoyable to play? Admittedly so, since it has broken the record of all previous Xbox titles by selling over 1/4 million copies in 4 days. As far as RPGs go on this console, it's up there with Morrowind, albeit from a slightly different angle. I think to the average gamer (which this game has been targeted for marketing, hence the flashy commercials and Star Wars licensing) it was pulled off quite well.

 

[Psilon]

Sure, this'll sound elitist, but the average gamer is not that discerning. Why do you think companies like Acclaim are still around? Because you can keep pumping out crap if it has explosions and--better yet--a license. Look at Enter the Matrix; by all accounts it sucked, yet it sold millions for Atari.

We expect more from our RPGs, yet the recent offerings from Interplay, BioWare, and their ilk are just more of the same. A +5 Vorpal Lightsaber isn't going to cut it anymore, so to speak. Not every game has to be a Fallout, Geneforge, or Prelude, but when every high-budget title seems to be BG2 with a different interface and wackier voices you can't really blame us for complaining. If it weren't for ToEE I wouldn't know of a single commercial turn-based RPG.

 

[bossjimbob]

Sure, this'll sound elitist, but the average gamer is not that discerning. Why do you think companies like Acclaim are still around? Because you can keep pumping out crap if it has explosions and--better yet--a license. Look at Enter the Matrix; by all accounts it sucked, yet it sold millions for Atari.

We expect more from our RPGs, yet the recent offerings from Interplay, BioWare, and their ilk are just more of the same. A +5 Vorpal Lightsaber isn't going to cut it anymore, so to speak. Not every game has to be a Fallout, Geneforge, or Prelude, but when every high-budget title seems to be BG2 with a different interface and wackier voices you can't really blame us for complaining. If it weren't for ToEE I wouldn't know of a single commercial turn-based RPG.

Actually, I agree with what you are saying to a point. Sales figures do not a quality game make. Matrix was an abomination when compared to similar action games like Max Payne. Though the game is older and lacking in the Hollywood budget department, the sheer sense of style, originality, and lack of bugs made Payne the far greater game along the same lines. And please, don't make fun of Acclaim...I sadly own some of their stock. (Let's hope Greg Fischbach's resignation leads to greener pastures and fewer BMX XXX titles, but I digress...)

I guess my gripe is that RPGs are far less accessible than other genres. When a good title comes along that manages to attract a large audience, it's commonly ripped to shreds by the older crowd, and this in turn alienates new blood. Not to say that any mainstream RPG title should be endorsed out of blind allegiance, but I am not the first to notice that this board is populated by a particularly crotchety group of finicky old-schoolers? Too many nosehairs, and not enough eyeballs, if you catch my drift.

Where is the line drawn between deep gameplay and excessive micromanagement?

 

[Voss]

What do deep gameplay and excessive micromanagement have to do with each other?

As for, your other point, a good title coming along is getting to be more and more rare. If they were good, they wouldn't get ripped to shreds. But since recent years have seen more and more releases relying on marketing formulas rather than making a good game, and a sense of quality control sliding into oblivion... well.

The old crowd might alienate the new blood from joining in conversations, but it really doesn't stop them from playing games. And buying the crappy ones, sadly.

 

[bossjimbob]

The concept of "good" when compared to any game is relative, based upon opinion and experience with similar titles. Nobody is right or wrong here. There is no reason to impress snobbery upon those with differing opinions. Some of us like KotOR as well as other "evil" BioWare games.

8)

 

[Voss]

impress snobbery?

and thats the point- the people ripping the games that fail to hit their standard of good are expressing an opinion. Thats all.

And what *do* deep gameplay and excessive micromanagement have to do with each other?

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

The concept of "good" when compared to any game is relative, based upon opinion and experience with similar titles. Nobody is right or wrong here. There is no reason to impress snobbery upon those with differing opinions. Some of us like KotOR as well as other "evil" BioWare games.

8)

I don't think anyone here is forcing you to not like KOTOR or any Bio game, rather others are giving their views as to why they don't or won't like same.
I am perfectly willing to give KOTOR a shot and enjoy it for what it is, but I am not expecting a deep roleplaying experience. And this is precisely what is so irksome about Bio.. they make crummy RPGs (tho the games may be fun for other reasons..I've enjoyed many of theri games) and then neither they nor nearly the entire gaming press can stop declaring BIOWARE ROOLEZ ALL ELSE ARE PRETENDERS TO THE THRONE.

It is quckily becoming the kneejerk reaction to the posters and creators of this site to dismiss us all as cranky ole men/women who hate everything yet if anyone wants to take notice the arguments here are by and large actual arguments and not mere curmudgeonly griping.

 

[Psilon]

Maybe it would help our PR if we got more dev-fenders like Volourn and Skorpios. Then we could see some real mudslinging!

 

[Volourn]

No. I like to remain as "unique" as possible. :D

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Meh, I am with Volorun more then most people, I just learned to stay in the closet after a while.

 

[Nomad]

I'm actually in the middle of KotOR right now. I know the story and big plot twist (I can't seem to stay away from spoilers) and after giving it some thought, it seems to me that it is perfectly aligned with the SW universe as it has been presented so far.


** Possible Spoiler: Start **

I find KotOR is consistent with the movies and expanded universe along the following themes:

1. Good vs. Evil (there's a surprise)
2. Knowledge of Oneself
3. Variety

The good vs. evil thing is on several levels:

1. The war between the Republic and the Sith (macro).
2. The internal battle all Jedi must wage when faced with temptation (micro / internal).

Growth through knowledge of oneself exists on several levels, too:

1. It plays a little with the internal battle referred to above.
2. The general identity issues (similar to those Luke experienced when he found out that Darth Vader was his father).

There is lots of variety:

1. There are many different companions
2. The environments for the protagonists to explore.
3. Problems the protaganists must solve (both in goal and solution).

** Possible Spoiler: End **


Overall, I think KotOR is a fantastic and almost flawless game (there are a couple of bugs and the frame rates do dip a little here and there). It is probably one of the best games (not just RPGs) I've ever played - although your mileage may vary.


N.

 

[Ibbz]

Sure, this'll sound elitist, but the average gamer is not that discerning. Why do you think companies like Acclaim are still around? Because you can keep pumping out crap if it has explosions and--better yet--a license. Look at Enter the Matrix; by all accounts it sucked, yet it sold millions for Atari

Indeed, but when you start getting a variety of Game Developers/Reviewers praising it - http://www.quartertothree.com/phpBB2/vi ... php?t=4913 - The game is obviously better than your average XBOX title.

I am perfectly willing to give KOTOR a shot and enjoy it for what it is, but I am not expecting a deep roleplaying experience. And this is precisely what is so irksome about Bio.. they make crummy RPGs (tho the games may be fun for other reasons..I've enjoyed many of theri games) and then neither they nor nearly the entire gaming press can stop declaring BIOWARE ROOLEZ ALL ELSE ARE PRETENDERS TO THE THRONE.

In their opionion obviously Bioware does rule - which is just as valid as your "Bioware make crummy RPGs" point of view.

 

[Astromarine]

You...
You...

own Acclaim... STOCK?!?!?!?!


MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

If I were a developer out to make lots of money, I'd be cheering BioWare on as well. Why? Because they prove that you don't have to advance a genre to be successful. You don't even have to have decent programming skills. You don't have to be able to write anything plausible, or come up with interesting or unique plots or people. You don't have to do anything new. You can run way overbudget, soaking a publisher for millions beyond what you're actually worth. In fact, you can just ride a famous license all the way to BEST. ROLLPLAIING GAEM DIVELOAPER EVAR status without doing much.

 

[Nomad]

Unless I'm mistaken, neither you nor anyone else here is in a position to comment on the project costs, scheduling or worth of NWN or BioWare. I know I'm not. As far as their technical abilities are concerned they seem pretty competitive relative to the rest of the industry. I may find that some other games are less buggy than some BioWare titles, but those products typically appear to be less feature rich, too.

As far as not advancing the RPG genre, I've heard you and some of the others carry on and on and on and on and on... about this for what seems like an eternity (and I've only been coming to these boards for a few months!) yet I've found your arguments in that respect to be vague and uninspired. Perhaps it is you who is lacking in growth as a player. Perhaps it is you who fails to recognize the growth that actually is there. Perhaps it is you who, seeing the growth in a direction of which you disapprove, refuses to adapt with the times and move forward. I mention this not out of spite or malice, but merely as an alternative explanation.

While you may not like it, NWN does represent growth and innovation in the genre. It isn't necessarily in the right direction in all respects, but it showed that BioWare was listening to both what their fans and customers were telling them and where they thought the market was headed. Maybe they didn't get it all right, but they took a shot and are continuing to grow that product line in the direction that their community is asking them to go. Sure, V:TM - R did much of what NWN did and delivered it a year earlier, it was also a smaller game with a less polished extras, almost no post-ship support and no expansions.

BG, NWN and SW have all advanced the genre by building on what came before and adapting it to allow them to tell the stories they think will appeal to wider audience. As have Morrowind, DS, FO, Eye of the Beholder, Wizardry, HoM&M, Ultima, etc...


N.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Another round with Bioware defenders...

As far as their technical abilities are concerned they seem pretty competitive relative to the rest of the industry.

Pretty competetive? Compared to what? I assume if you made this rather vague statement, you have some arguments and comparison readily available to back you up. So let us see them.

I may find that some other games are less buggy than some BioWare titles, but those products typically appear to be less feature rich, too

Typically appear to be less feature rich? NWN has features? :shock: Like what? Crates and loot?

While you may not like it, NWN does represent growth and innovation in the genre. It isn't necessarily in the right direction in all respects, but it showed that BioWare was listening to both what their fans and customers were telling them and where they thought the market was headed.

Well, I don't see any innovation or growth unless we are taking about the hype. Btw, I would expect a person who complained about vagueness to be a bit more specific :wink: So, I'd love to argue with you about it, but can we see your facts, arguments, examples first?

BG, NWN and SW have all advanced the genre by building on what came before and adapting it to allow them to tell the stories they think will appeal to wider audience.

They took what and put it where? Are you reading from a press-release or something?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Unless I'm mistaken, neither you nor anyone else here is in a position to comment on the project costs, scheduling or worth of NWN or BioWare. I know I'm not. As far as their technical abilities are concerned they seem pretty competitive relative to the rest of the industry. I may find that some other games are less buggy than some BioWare titles, but those products typically appear to be less feature rich, too.

As far as not advancing the RPG genre, I've heard you and some of the others carry on and on and on and on and on... about this for what seems like an eternity (and I've only been coming to these boards for a few months!) yet I've found your arguments in that respect to be vague and uninspired. Perhaps it is you who is lacking in growth as a player. Perhaps it is you who fails to recognize the growth that actually is there. Perhaps it is you who, seeing the growth in a direction of which you disapprove, refuses to adapt with the times and move forward. I mention this not out of spite or malice, but merely as an alternative explanation.

While you may not like it, NWN does represent growth and innovation in the genre. It isn't necessarily in the right direction in all respects, but it showed that BioWare was listening to both what their fans and customers were telling them and where they thought the market was headed. Maybe they didn't get it all right, but they took a shot and are continuing to grow that product line in the direction that their community is asking them to go. Sure, V:TM - R did much of what NWN did and delivered it a year earlier, it was also a smaller game with a less polished extras, almost no post-ship support and no expansions.

BG, NWN and SW have all advanced the genre by building on what came before and adapting it to allow them to tell the stories they think will appeal to wider audience. As have Morrowind, DS, FO, Eye of the Beholder, Wizardry, HoM&M, Ultima, etc...


N.

I believe you are about to be called an impotent chimp by Rosh, sir. My condolences.

 

[Sabotai]

While you may not like it, NWN does represent growth and innovation in the genre. It isn't necessarily in the right direction in all respects, but it showed that BioWare was listening to both what their fans and customers were telling them and where they thought the market was headed. Maybe they didn't get it all right, but they took a shot and are continuing to grow that product line in the direction that their community is asking them to go.

BG, NWN and SW have all advanced the genre by building on what came before and adapting it to allow them to tell the stories they think will appeal to wider audience. As have Morrowind, DS, FO, Eye of the Beholder, Wizardry, HoM&M, Ultima, etc...
N.

I think we have a classic case here of people talking about two different subjects. Nomad, I think you are talking about the Multiplayer and Editor aspect of NWN while StP, Vault Dweller and others are talking about the OC. IIRC, even you in the "What is it about BioWare" thread acknowledged that the OC didn't bring anything new. To me the OC didn't bring a single innovative thing to the genre. Its story, graphics, characters, design and the CR were mediocre at best; especially for the price I paid for it.

 

[Nomad]

If people feel they need to engage in personal attacks, which appears often to be the case on these forums, then they're not doing themselves or their arguments any favours. It also shows that they also haven't read some of my previous posts. It's true that I like BioWare's stuff - it's not perfect, but I'm the first to admit that I'm not a hard-core RPG'er, so maybe I'm missing something.

As to Vault Dweller's comments, I said competitive relative to the rest of the industry (I thought that was pretty clear). I've bought buggy games in the past (forgive me if, when I find a product I don't like, I just move on and forget about it without letting it corrupt my soul with the need to bitch about it for years on the 'net), some that are worse than Bio games like Rogue Spear: Urban Ops which wouldn't even install and others that are less (I don't figure I need to list these as I'm sure some of you guys would be more than happy to give me a list).

When I said feature rich, I was referring to programming, not to design elements or level layout. Crates and loot fall into the latter, not the former. If you're looking for specifics, then their conversation system, scripting system, faction system, encounter system, item properties system, networking system, dm client, stand-alone server and toolset for NWN. That sounds like a lot of programming work to me, more than just an FPS or single-player RPG which is why I said "appear to be less feature rich". Of course not many games give the average player access to the same kind of engine-specific details as NWN, so they _might_ be as complex, but you'd never know it for certain.

Growth implies learning from the past - either from your own mistakes and successes or someone else's. It makes no reference to not making additional mistakes, which as I've said in the past, NWN has its share. Innovation is doing something different. You can have growth without innovation, but you can't have innovation without growth. In neither case is it required for you to _like_ the direction of growth or the specific innovations in order for them to actually be there.

NWN does both by improving on their combat system (not necessarily their AI) and providing the tools for the average player to create their own adventures for small party multi-player role-playing. As I said, you don't have to _like_ what they did or how they did it to acknowledge that it is growth and innovation and therefore advancing the genre.


N.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Unless I'm mistaken, neither you nor anyone else here is in a position to comment on the project costs, scheduling or worth of NWN or BioWare. I know I'm not. As far as their technical abilities are concerned they seem pretty competitive relative to the rest of the industry. I may find that some other games are less buggy than some BioWare titles, but those products typically appear to be less feature rich, too.

In terms of PC RPGs, who are Bioware competing with? Sir-Tech is nowhere to be found. I haven't heard anything about Origin in years. Black Isle/Interplay hasn't made anything that impressive lately. Troika are giving off baby steps in the industry. Blizzard just needs to make a game and tack "Diablo" into the title and it'll automatically sell. Other companies are either starting out or launch titles which are good or get neglected in favour of others like - you guessed it - Bioware. How is it competing?

And now, what features does a Bioware product bring? I'm curious.

As far as not advancing the RPG genre, I've heard you and some of the others carry on and on and on and on and on... about this for what seems like an eternity (and I've only been coming to these boards for a few months!) yet I've found your arguments in that respect to be vague and uninspired. Perhaps it is you who is lacking in growth as a player. Perhaps it is you who fails to recognize the growth that actually is there. Perhaps it is you who, seeing the growth in a direction of which you disapprove, refuses to adapt with the times and move forward. I mention this not out of spite or malice, but merely as an alternative explanation.

Well its like this. You see to advance the genre, you'd have to pick up on past lessons in the industry and make a product which combines the best of the past, or even improve on it (or even both), and make it good enough to be recognized as something groundbreaking. Lets see...

1) The D&D license was not new in any way. Many games before BG already used the D&D license. So, one, Bioware didn't even picked up a new license, neither did it work on an entirely new game - Fallout managed to be a success without even recurring to ye olde phantasy. And if one game succeeds at it, others also can, all it takes its designer ingenuity.

2) 2D Isometric engines? Diablo and Fallout to name just a couple, before it. Real time combat? Certainly not new. Party-based gameplay coupled with their management? Ho ho ho, also not new. Not by a longshot - from Ultima to Might and Magic to Wizardry to Eye of the Beholder. Combat and AI? When its not scissor-paper-stone against Wizards, its click on an enemy and let them sort it out automatically (its amazing what one can do with the scripting utility, coupled with equipping one's characters with uber-protective gear strewn about the game) - enemy AI goes as far as not having any melee strategy against me, save for running back and forth trying to get enemy mobs' attention (and honestly, better has been done in various games).

3) D&D gameworld? Lets see... in the past, other PC RPGs dealt with settings such as Forgotten Realms (generic medieval world), Ravenloft (horror and Vampires), Al-Qadim (mythical Arabia), Menzoberranzan 8dealing with the Drow), Dark Sun (kinda hard to explain the setting, heres a description of it: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darksun), Spelljammer: Pirates of Realmspace (which dealt with, you guessed it, Spelljammer), the Krynn trilogy (which was set in Dragonlance), etc.. There were other settings which i now don't remember, but alas, moving on...

4) Bioware worked on the most common and widely-used setting, Forgotten Realms. I'm not against the decision itself from a comercial point of view - if i was in their position i'd also might do a game in a well-known licensed setting. What just irks me is that the setting itself is generic and overly-used, so no new genre was used and no previously used setting was better fleshed out. Moving on...

5) Bioware uses a top-down, isometric, 2D engine. Most all other RPGs for PC prior to BG are 2D and topdown, nothing new there. But isometric? Entomorph: Plague Of The Darkfall; Warhammer: Shadow of the Horned Rat; Diablo; Fallout; Halls of the Dead - Faery Tale Adventure II; Lords of Magic; and Ultima Online - all these prior to BG and are also isometric topdown 2D. So again, nothing new...

6) Gameworld... well Daggerfall is infinitely replayable and has interesting NPCs which remember how you dealt with them in the past; Fallout has visible consequences to your actions, different endings according to what you do, and NPCs that behave realistically; Ultima already presents a good reactivity to your actions ... Now how about credibility in terms of characters? BG's voice-acting is far less compelling and well-performed than, say, Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen which puts any character one can create manually to shame, and also brings down any supposed villany Sarevok might've posessed. LoK:BO, for a single player, console-first, hack'n'slash akin to Diablo and Zelda ousts BG's attempt at storyline and voice-acting (and the difference between them, from BO to BG was.. what? 5 cd's and one year?). So, er, yeah, nothing new...

7) Use of the D&D rules is, quite simply, broken at best. Turn-based is trounced to accomodate to Diablo's success, and your attributes only matter in combat, as your statistics are only used there. You rarely have any quests or interactions depending on your attributes - Charisma rarely matters save in prices of items in shops shock; your Intelligence, wheter high or low, won't matter in dialogue, as your character will speak fluently regardlesss of having a 3 or an 18 in the stat itself (thanks for pointing that out that tidbit which i'd forgotten, Saint :D); magic is overused and teh ph4t l3wt is everywhere (which completely defeats the PnP purpose of D&D of making you feel special by occasionally finding an enchanted item, when BG gives you one about every 10 minutes or so). Which leads to wonder, why all the hype in creating my character and allocating its points if it will only matter in combat? Kinda makes one wonder why BG is considered more of an RPG than, say, Final Fantasy, when combat and marginal interaction is what probably defines best the both of them. So, moving on...

7) Furthering of the genre... well, furthering a game genre can only be done in two ways. One, by slightly dilluting the primary genre and mixing others (like a Strategy/RPG, or an FPS/RPG) in an effective way, or by combining the best elements of it and producing something engaging and never done before (or done in a refined matter).

Well, the setting is overused; party management isn't new; dungeon crawling certainly isn't new; graphical department nothing new; FedEx quests aren't new as well (and none of them are as engaging as Fallout's or even Dark Sun's, the later in which you could even help revolutionaries spread around propaganda in leaflets for people to join their cause); character creation, even if admitedly interesting, is too rule-driven to be as engaging as that in Fallout or Daggerfall; hell, even a minor aspect such as character Import/export isn't new (see Wizardries and Eye of the Beholder). The story while not the best there is at least manages to set the mood well. Yay, score one.

The only thing one could point to BG in terms of "advancing" the PC RPG genre was in interface and music (and even then, i'd be highly skeptical at saying this). All else was just tweaked to seem pretty. The graphics were good no doubt, but i'm sure we all know that competent graphics and a clean competent interface don't make a game in itself better than others.

Whats left is a glorified dungeon crawler labelled as RPG with pretty graphics and a terrible balance in gameplay, and a wasted potential.

Make no mistake, BG sold primarily because its a fantasy game, it didn't advance anything worthwhile mentioning.

While you may not like it, NWN does represent growth and innovation in the genre. It isn't necessarily in the right direction in all respects, but it showed that BioWare was listening to both what their fans and customers were telling them and where they thought the market was headed. Maybe they didn't get it all right, but they took a shot and are continuing to grow that product line in the direction that their community is asking them to go. Sure, V:TM - R did much of what NWN did and delivered it a year earlier, it was also a smaller game with a less polished extras, almost no post-ship support and no expansions.

Whats this innovation NWN presents? A very bad SP game, reminiscent of Diablo and Darkstone? 3D which isn't used to its potential (where a character can't jump, climb, crawl or swim)? A tool to create modules doesn't present innovation, as Morrowind's Construction Set, Arcanum's Toolset and the Bard's Tale Construction Set, to name a few, already do the same (though truth be told, the Aurora Toolset is easy to work with). The storyline is so predictable its amazing at how it can be considered great by some people.

The only technical achievement BG-in-3D-land... er, i meant NWN has is the great lighting effects, particle effects, and the reduced (but still competent) polycount which keeps the game at steady framerates.

BG, NWN and SW have all advanced the genre by building on what came before and adapting it to allow them to tell the stories they think will appeal to wider audience. As have Morrowind, DS, FO, Eye of the Beholder, Wizardry, HoM&M, Ultima, etc...

Saying SW:KoTOR advanced the RPG genre is slightly over exagerated. Perhaps stating its a good game within the SW videogames would be better. But claiming Dungeon Siege innovated the RPG genre is just... ahck... please someone insult him for this :shock: j/k

Now to the uplifting part of the thread. I liked BG when it came out. I liked BG2 when it came out. They both are still two of my all-time favourite PC games. But as much as i support Bioware for having made good games, i don't support them for having made bad RPGs. Just because i liked BG's doesn't mean i can't look at their staggering weaknesses, weaknesses i've been made aware of by the folks at this site (and by my own investigations). Its true, the games they make still only achieved commercial success, not innovation. They've still got a long way to go.

[EDIT: Typo fixing and comment adding.]

 

[Voss]

Growth implies learning from the past - either from your own mistakes and successes or someone else's. It makes no reference to not making additional mistakes, which as I've said in the past, NWN has its share. Innovation is doing something different. You can have growth without innovation, but you can't have innovation without growth. In neither case is it required for you to _like_ the direction of growth or the specific innovations in order for them to actually be there.

They certainly didn't learn from their mistakes about hard-coding crap that couldn't be changed without a major overhaul. They did it in the inifinity engine, and they did it again in Neverwinter. (See the Bioware boards for issues involving adding spellcasting classes or prestige classes). They certainly haven't learned from their mistakes involving AI or pathfinding either.