Preview A Wight By Any Other Name....

Rosh · Jun 29, 2009

Naked Ninja said:
So your retarded argument was merely a diversion? Devious indeed!

As those who said "What does it matter what stealth means, the game isn't going to be released!", why should it matter if the Obsidian folks post details of yet another aborted attempt at a decent game?

As I've dropped clues before, I don't really care what they internally reference to game mechanics. They could have called it "beanie weenies" for all I cared (and said before). I was digging for a bit more insight into their development methods to possibly explain why their promising games get shitcanned while they work on derivative SLAM DUNK! titles and their own IPs are a fucking joke (AP, again).

Much of the rest was just to keep it going, to see if they'd divulge anything else, as part was to see if they would further explain themselves, while drowning out the thread with "tl;dr" material that would chase away all but the most devoted of fanboys.

Hey, did I forgot to mention that I regularly think six moves ahead in chess, and that I once killed a man? :lol:

Lesifoere · Jun 29, 2009

Naked Ninja said:
Sorry lezzie, that is exaggerating a bit. It's perfectly possible to create an interesting story while making use of familiar tropes, so long as it isn't all familiar tropes. The Witcher is a good example, few of the elements are novel, it's just an interesting spin.

You can perfectly well have a good game, story or setting that incorporates a number of familiar concepts into the pattern, such as belligerant undead. Saying "well, if they include one familiar idea, why wouldn't they include ONLY familiar ideas!" is a simple-minded argument. Why not argue that if they include swords then they simply cannot have a good story or setting? Where does that silly argument end?

Naked, darling, so far what we've seen of DA is nothing but familiar tropes. It's got a pseudo-Christian religious institution, it's pseudo-medieval Europe, it's got elves and dragons and dwarves and scantily clad sorceresses. Would you like to point out to me one single solitary thing among all this that isn't worn and familiar and tired? Where's the interesting spin? One meager inkling of imagination or creativity?

You've completely misread my post, for that matter, and your straw man is nothing if not pubescent. Then again, you seem to sincerely believe that what Bioware's published about DA so far is genuinely interesting. So how did you like David Gaider's novel?

kris said:
I think hers and VDs argument wouldn't exactly paint a bright light on Twitcher either. As they mostly talk about "wonder" and fantasy being about new things. like...

- A star falling from the sky being a woman.
- Humans are reborn in 4 cycles, cat, dog, molerat and human.
- Houses are built from a material much lighter than air and needs to be attached to the ground.
- Ghosts can only hurt you if you believe in them.
- Land is moving around. Looks different every time it is visited.

The first one is a bit eh--am not a fan of Stardust--but funny you should say that, because I've just finished reading Catherynne M. Valente's The Orphan's Tales and it's full of stars coming to earth in many shapes. And it also happens to be one of the very, very few works of fantasy I've read lately that can evoke a genuine sense of wonder and mystery. The kind of thing talentless hacks have tried and utterly failed to ape with fucking elves dancing in fucking starlit meadows. When I get sick of shitty fantasy, I just need to think of this book and it'll cheer me up.

Gragt · Jun 29, 2009

I saw an elf dancing in a starlit meadow the other night.

Lesifoere · Jun 29, 2009

Horrible creatures. Do you avoid them whenever you can?

DraQ · Jun 29, 2009

Lesifoere said:
Naked, darling, so far what we've seen of DA is nothing but familiar tropes. It's got a pseudo-Christian religious institution, it's pseudo-medieval Europe, it's got elves and dragons and dwarves and scantily clad sorceresses.

It's doubly sad, actually, as dragons actually have a lot of potential when you think about it. They are usually highly intelligent in fantasy, and being so different from humanoids they would make perfect, genuinely alien beings opening many opportunities for interesting worldbuilding and storytelling.

kris said:
I think hers and VDs argument wouldn't exactly paint a bright light on Twitcher either. As they mostly talk about "wonder" and fantasy being about new things. like...

Well, the world in Witcher hinges mostly on "reality ensues" applied to a mostly standard (if Slavic-flavoured) fantasy, which results in a pretty convincing crapsack world. It's somewhat of a deconstruction.

I also think there is one important thing that should be added to the "wonder" argument. The world has to show some consistency and internal logic - throwing several wow-elements together haphazardly just doesn't cut it.

I just need to think of this book and it'll cheer me up.

I personally really enjoyed early prose by Polish writer Ewa Białołęcka, but she degenerated lately, wrote some shitty sequels, then started writing a lot of Potter fanfics and selling unauthorized merchandise using pictures of dragons made by some better furry artists. A sad sight, really.

Naked Ninja · Jun 29, 2009

Naked, darling, so far what we've seen of DA is nothing but familiar tropes. It's got a pseudo-Christian religious institution, it's pseudo-medieval Europe, it's got elves and dragons and dwarves and scantily clad sorceresses. Would you like to point out to me one single solitary thing among all this that isn't worn and familiar and tired? Where's the interesting spin? One meager inkling of imagination or creativity?

Baldurs Gate 2 had all those things yet still stands as my favorite RPG, bar none. It can have familiar tropes yet still tell a good story. The trailer showed strong hints that there is more going on in the plot beyond just the undead attack, there is some political infighting and treachery going to happen, clearly. I like political infighting and treachery.

The mechanics also look pretty decent. The VO has been fairly cringeworthy in videos, but then again this isn't the first time a Bio game has had some painful VO. I remain hopeful.

So how did you like David Gaider's novel?

Oh no, don't wheel that dead horse out for another beating, please.

Gragt · Jun 29, 2009

Lesifoere said:
Horrible creatures. Do you avoid them whenever you can?

Yes but it's becoming harder and harder: they easily detect me with their keen senses of hearing their acicular ears confers to them and the low-light vision that their emerald green eyes possess. They then stride towards me in a graceful, feline way, their raven hair floating with majesty in the pale but vibrant starlight. Once they reach me, I can see their delicate lips, fragile crescents on the delectable spectacle of their face, start to move, and pouring out is a melodious voice with which they start to recite goth poetry. That is when I realized that this was a good time to run.

And run I did.

Lesifoere · Jun 29, 2009

DraQ said:
Lesifoere said:

Naked, darling, so far what we've seen of DA is nothing but familiar tropes. It's got a pseudo-Christian religious institution, it's pseudo-medieval Europe, it's got elves and dragons and dwarves and scantily clad sorceresses.

Click to expand...

It's doubly sad, actually, as dragons actually have a lot of potential when you think about it. They are usually highly intelligent in fantasy, and being so different from humanoids they would make perfect, genuinely alien beings opening many opportunities for interesting worldbuilding and storytelling.

Instead, all we get are "hurrr derp me likey treasures!!!" dragons who cast magic, act arrogant, and are extremely susceptible to flattery because--despite their INT score--they're just. that. dumb.

I also think there is one important thing that should be added to the "wonder" argument. The world has to show some consistency and internal logic - throwing several wow-elements together haphazardly just doesn't cut it.

Certainly. The aforementioned Valente book is so good because all the stories-within-stories aren't just random tangents: they're interconnected, nested into each other, and join into a single coherent whole.

And ew, Potter fanfic.

Gragt said:
Lesifoere said:

Horrible creatures. Do you avoid them whenever you can?

Click to expand...

Yes but it's becoming harder and harder: they easily detect me with their keen senses of hearing and the low-light vision that their emerald green eyes possess. They then stride towards me in a graceful, feline way, their raven hair floating with majesty in the pale but vibrant starlight. Once they reach me, I can see their delicate lips, fragile crescents on the delectable spectacle of their face, start to move, and pouring out is a melodious voice with which they start to recite goth poetry. That is when I realise that this is a good time to run.

And run I did.

But never fast enough, since they'll catch up with you in no time due to their superior, catlike agility. Good night, sweet prince.

Gragt · Jun 29, 2009

DraQ: reminds me of the King of Dragon Pass dragons. From what I saw of it, I actually wouldn't mind to see an RPG set into Glorantha.

Lesifoere said:
But never fast enough, since they'll catch up with you in no time due to their superior, catlike agility. Good night, sweet prince.

Fuck, at least they're not vampire in love.

...

Wait, elven vampires in love declaiming poetry in a starlit meadow ... Now, that's vile.

DraQ · Jun 29, 2009

Gragt said:
DraQ: reminds me of the King of Dragon Pass dragons.

Haven't played it, alas.

Also, I'm relieved you didn't proceed to pour your third cup of hot coffee onto your crotch, as then, I'd have to punch you. :D

thesheeep · Jun 29, 2009

Lesifoere · Jun 29, 2009

Gragt said:
Fuck, at least they're not vampire in love.

...

Wait, elven vampires in love declaiming poetry in a starlit meadow ... Now, that's vile

Bodhi in BG2 was an elven vampire who looked goth. And she does kidnap the PC's love interest and if the love interest is male, she implies she's raped him in the process.

Gragt · Jun 29, 2009

DraQ said:
Haven't played it, alas.

You might want to give it a try, as the setting is really nice and some events even make fun of typical rpg adventurers, and you get to see them from the point of view of the villagers. And the dragons there are just alien, with a completely different thought process from the other creatures that inhabits Dragon Pass.

On the subject of pouring coffee on my crotch, I reserve that for really retarded comments.

Lesifoere said:
Bodhi in BG2 was an elven vampire who looked goth. And she does kidnap the PC's love interest and if the love interest is male, she implies she's raped him in the process.

I should play that game as a female, seems I missed a lot of stuff. Still at least Bodhi wasn't involved in a mushy love story and read poetry at every encounter.

kris · Jun 29, 2009

Gragt said:
Wait, elven vampires in love declaiming poetry in a starlit meadow ... Now, that's vile.

I think you just stumbled upon the golden chalice. Seeing the popularity of elves and vampires among women (apart from the ones... one on the codex) I can see dollar signs in my eyes. I am gonna write a romantic story about a emo vampiric elf and a girl that can't find her place in the world. A vampiric dwarf will be the protagonist, the elf was starving and sucked the blood out of his brother. Awesome.

Shannow · Jun 29, 2009

DraQ said:
Lesifoere said:

Naked, darling, so far what we've seen of DA is nothing but familiar tropes. It's got a pseudo-Christian religious institution, it's pseudo-medieval Europe, it's got elves and dragons and dwarves and scantily clad sorceresses.

Click to expand...

It's doubly sad, actually, as dragons actually have a lot of potential when you think about it. They are usually highly intelligent in fantasy, and being so different from humanoids they would make perfect, genuinely alien beings opening many opportunities for interesting worldbuilding and storytelling.

I'll take this opportunity to mention an idea a friend of mine had: A game where dragons are simple animals the size of dogs and substitute "rats" on the monster-slaying-list.
Personally, I'd go with really tradional dragons: Only very(!) few, intelligent and nigh impossible to kill by humans. If they put their mind to it a single dragon can easily destroy a whole kingdom. They would take as much notice of humans as we take of locusts.

Dark Matter · Jun 29, 2009

They are doing you a something of a favor by sharing their opinions

Like I said, it takes a mental child to confuse courtesy with ass kissing.

But it is ass kissing. You're saying we should go easy on them because they're a dev, and we should pretend that they're doing us a great favor by gracing us with their presence. That qualifies as ass kissing in my book. If they end up leaving because they're not getting special treatment, I doubt anyone here is gonna care. If Gaider ever ends up coming here again (I doubt it), I'm going to enjoy watching him get bashed for DA and his shitty novel.

That's what I love about Annie Carlson and Anthony Davis. They've gotten plenty of flak from the posters here and haven't pussied out. Most other devs are too used to posting strictly on their official forums where everyone is an ass kisser.

That's also what I love about Codex. It's the fact that no one gives a shit if you're a dev, a mod, a long time poster etc. Mature criticism and immature poo-flinging apply to everyone.

Naked Ninja · Jun 29, 2009

But it is ass kissing. You're saying we should go easy on them because they're a dev, and we should pretend that they're doing us a great favor by gracing us with their presence.

But it is a favor. A creator of some work is more knowledgeable and insightful on that work than a random 'tard. To hear that insight is more desirable than hearing said 'tard speak, which is why book fans might pay to hear Terry Pratchett speak about Terry Pratchett novels but they wouldn't pay to hear, say you do the same. Their insight into their own works is considerably more desirable and rare than your own. Rarity and desirability are what determine "value" in society kid.

They aren't being paid to share their insight, nor do they have any real need to share. Doing so is a courtesy on their part, a courtesy easily withdrawn. In return, courtesy is the appropriate response to them taking the time to share something people desire to know. The mature response.

Courtesy, not ass kissing. As in, not doing your absolute best to bite their friggin' nuts off like you're some type of rabid dog whenever you disagree with them.

If they end up leaving because they're not getting special treatment, I doubt anyone here is gonna care.

Grow up. Most of the people here who aren't children appreciate when devs take the time to talk about their games and consider it a loss when they stop doing so. It's hardly special treatment to show that appreciation of the time spent by not being a huge jackass whenever you disagree with the dev in some way. And for mods to put a muzzle on fuckers like Skyway.

That's what I love about Annie Carlson and Anthony Davis. They've gotten plenty of flak from the posters here and haven't pussied out.

They seem fairly new and enthusiastic. Give them a few years of doing this and I'm sure they will tire of fending off the same mindless attacks again and again and again and again....as all the others did. God knows I've tired of reading it and it's not even directed at me.

That's also what I love about Codex. It's the fact that no one gives a shit if you're a dev, a mod, a long time poster etc. Mature criticism and immature poo-flinging apply to everyone.

Mature criticism? Where?!?! Where???

*looks around wildly*

Oh. I blinked there for a second, I must have missed it.

BearBomber · Jun 29, 2009

The point of people who defend developers would he more valid if he hadn't ignored all non agressive posts and preceded to flame Roshombo. But of course that post weren't written by well known Roshombo, so they could've been ignored.

Rosh · Jun 30, 2009

BearBomber said:
The point of people who defend developers would he more valid if he hadn't ignored all non agressive posts and preceded to flame Roshombo. But of course that post weren't written by well known Roshombo, so they could've been ignored.

I have to explain a bit about the background of the situation, and why I said enough was fucking enough.
Here's what I like to call The Ten Steps of Obsidian Development Codependency:

1. BIS...err, Obsidian, announces a new title they are working on, or hints on one through leaks of their internal project names (like Jefferson).
2. The fans rejoice! There IS a light at the end of the SLAM DUNK! tunnel.
3. Obsidian, in the meantime of working on that title, develops and releases Feargus Brand SLAM DUNK! titles.
4. Super Awesome Cool Idea from #1 is shitcanned.
5. The fans bawl into Richard Simmons tears.
6. The Obsidian developers later post several game features and other crap from the canceled title they "hope to put into their next project", stringing fan interest along.
7. Said ideas never see the light of day, mainly because of the continued squatting out of SLAM DUNK! titles. Blame LucasArts. Seriously.
8. Even Obsidian's attempts at an IP of their own are highly derivative and show very little originality.
9. Fans buy the new half-finished game that rides on BioWare's coattails, in pretty much the same stupid belief people once had for buying F

OS to give Interplay enough money to have BIS make Fallout 3 (despite the number of false starts they already did...), and hope that if they keep buying these SLAM DUNK! titles that magically another PS:T quality title will come from somewhere. Admittedly, Aliens RPG was looking good in that vein.
10. The fans defend Obsidian as a good development house, because of the awesome work they have done. Which, coincidentally, has never seen a release date.
GOTO 1

It's been about ten years of the same goddamn song and dance. Enough is fucking enough. Either deliver a quality, in depth title like it has been teased like a carrot, or stop this bullshit and go full out BioWa...oh, right. Alpha Protocol.

DraQ · Jun 30, 2009

Rosh said:
GOTO 1

:evil:

*glare*

</structural_programmer>

Rosh · Jun 30, 2009

DraQ said:
:evil:

*glare*

</structural_programmer>

Sorry, had to throw in an old BASIC joke in there somewhere, because the cycle seems to be getting that old. Yes, it is meant to be an infinite loop, because so far it's been a never-ending cycle. :D

kris · Jun 30, 2009

Lesifoere said:
The first one is a bit eh--am not a fan of Stardust

Well, at least that was the only one I did not come up with. (I am aware all other ideas could have been used before by someone)

Darth Roxor · Jun 30, 2009

Just what the fuck are 'SLAM DUNKS!'?

FeelTheRads · Jun 30, 2009

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slam_dunk

Feargus: Oh yeah, dunked in another one!

Wyrmlord · Jun 30, 2009

Darth Roxor said:
Just what the fuck are 'SLAM DUNKS!'?

Feargus Urquahart is nicknamed Slam Dunk Urquahart (since the name Feargus is an obvious Scottish abomination).

It works ironically against him, considering the number of botch-jobs and cancelled projects he has overseen, so people like to say, "Looks like that Urquahart totally "SLAM DUNK'd" again, didn't he?"

Preview A Wight By Any Other Name....

Erudite

Liturgist

Arcane

Liturgist

Arcane

Arbiter

Arcane

Liturgist

Arcane

Arcane

Arcane

Liturgist

Arcane

Arcane

Waster of Time

Prophet

Arbiter

Scholar

Erudite

Arcane

Erudite

Arcane

Royal Dongsmith

Arcane

Arcane