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Yuji Horii: Western press biased against turn-based systems

GarfunkeL

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KalosKagathos said:
phelot said:
If you don't count targeting, or actually moving on the map?
1. Aiming for the eyes is the only mode of fire in Fallout. Anyone claiming otherwise is delusional.

Fast shot + burst fire is a viable combat build in both Fallouts, especially when you switch from small guns to big guns.

KalosKagathos said:
2. Movement and relative positioning do not really matter in Fallout, since after gaining a couple of levels you can land eye shots consistently while standing 10 tiles away from your opponent. There's also no penalty for using ranged weapons at point black range, making melee a waste of time.

True. But, moving still allows you to line up burst-fire opportunities or to place neutrals or allies between you and the enemies or for you to stay behind a corner to avoid fire from other, more distant enemies. While Fallout isn't JA2, it's not quite as simplistic as you try to portray it to be.

KalosKagathos said:
3.
gridv.jpg

WHERE'S YOUR YHVH NOW?

What more is that screen except a shitty UI where instead of "MAGIC" or "SPELL" screen the few spells are directly listed on the screen?
:M
 
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GarfunkeL said:
What more is that screen except a shitty UI where instead of "MAGIC" or "SPELL" screen the few spells are directly listed on the screen? :M

Notice the "move" and a map to walk on. So,

moving still allows you to line up burst-fire opportunities or to place neutrals or allies between you and the enemies or for you to stay behind a corner to avoid fire from other, more distant enemies.

Then again, I guess the game is guilty of "Not being Fallout", therefore it doesn't count.
 

KalosKagathos

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GarfunkeL said:
Fast shot + burst fire is a viable combat build in both Fallouts, especially when you switch from small guns to big guns.
Big guns are expensive and out of reach for the majority of the game (4-5 hours, that is). Meanwhile you can start raping more or less anything with not-the-pistol-from-Blade-Runner once you reach the Hub. When you can push damage numbers into triple digits 6 levels in the game, something is seriously wrong.
True. But, moving still allows you to line up burst-fire opportunities or to place neutrals or allies between you and the enemies or for you to stay behind a corner to avoid fire from other, more distant enemies. While Fallout isn't JA2, it's not quite as simplistic as you try to portray it to be.
It is, because all of this stuff is not required. As long as you're equipped with level-appropriate armor, you can take the gunfire. Hiding behind corners is simply an overkill.
What more is that screen except a shitty UI where instead of "MAGIC" or "SPELL" screen the few spells are directly listed on the screen?
:M
Movement.

EDIT: Partially ninja'd.
 

Admiral jimbob

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GarfunkeL said:
What more is that screen except a shitty UI where instead of "MAGIC" or "SPELL" screen the few spells are directly listed on the screen?
:M

Each spell each party member has is handpicked from a list before the battle (intentionally limited to force you to choose wisely), and each demon companion's moves come about as a result of careful fusions, again forcing you to choose from a limited pool. You can move, the amount of spaces you can move per turn (and whether you can move after attacking) determined partially by stats and partially by what passive skills you or your demons have, some of which allow you to skip over obstacles and thus get the drop on enemies. Yet more skills allow you to attack from two spaces away, preventing enemies from counter-attacking unless they have the same skill. When you attack, the scene shifts to a blob-esque first person combat for one turn, after which you return to the battle map. If you use skills wisely to exploit weaknesses and get critical hits, you can get a bonus turn and deal double the damage. On the map screen itself, each party member can use one out-of-battle skill (if they have any) per turn, to heal themselves, get guaranteed criticals in the next fight, boost stats etc. Add to that the fact that you usually have three or four parties of three (one character and two demons) at any given time, parties can heal/boost other parties to help them out of a jam if they're close enough, etc.

So I think there's a bit more to it than ATTACK and MAGIC, yeah. :thumbsup:
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Anyone who thinks Fallout was even remotely tactical needs a lobotomy.
 
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Why, it's tactical because you can have your braindead AI followers serve as meat shield while you occasionally move out of harm's way, then come back to aim for the eyes. When hurt, stimpack away. Not that you're in any danger of dying other than being hit by a freak critical.

Meanwhile, in shit with no tactics like Fallout 3 you can have your braindead AI followers serve as meat shield while you occasionally move out of harm's way, then come back to aim for the eyes. When hurt, stimpack away. Not that you're in any danger of dying other than being hit by a freak critical. So retarded.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Azrael the cat said:
There's no shortage of folk who are good designers/artists/writers but praise the most retarded shite.
Jeff Vogel. 'nuff said.

GarfunkeL said:
Fast shot + burst fire is a viable combat build in both Fallouts, especially when you switch from small guns to big guns.
You don't even need big guns. I'm playing a Fast Shot guy in Fallout 2 and while I miss the ability to target shots sometimes, I can do 2 burst attacks with the SMG in one round. That amount of damage this does is insane.

KalosKagathos said:
It is, because all of this stuff is not required. As long as you're equipped with level-appropriate armor, you can take the gunfire.
Try to face those minigun-wielding supermutants, even in Power Armor, then tell me about this stuff being not required. ONE attack will insta-kill you, armor or not.
 

spekkio

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POOPOO MCBUMFACE said:
GarfunkeL said:
What more is that screen except a shitty UI where instead of "MAGIC" or "SPELL" screen the few spells are directly listed on the screen?
:M

Each spell each party member has is handpicked from a list before the battle (intentionally limited to force you to choose wisely), and each demon companion's moves come about as a result of careful fusions, again forcing you to choose from a limited pool. You can move, the amount of spaces you can move per turn (and whether you can move after attacking) determined partially by stats and partially by what passive skills you or your demons have, some of which allow you to skip over obstacles and thus get the drop on enemies. Yet more skills allow you to attack from two spaces away, preventing enemies from counter-attacking unless they have the same skill. When you attack, the scene shifts to a blob-esque first person combat for one turn, after which you return to the battle map. If you use skills wisely to exploit weaknesses and get critical hits, you can get a bonus turn and deal double the damage. On the map screen itself, each party member can use one out-of-battle skill (if they have any) per turn, to heal themselves, get guaranteed criticals in the next fight, boost stats etc. Add to that the fact that you usually have three or four parties of three (one character and two demons) at any given time, parties can heal/boost other parties to help them out of a jam if they're close enough, etc.

So I think there's a bit more to it than ATTACK and MAGIC, yeah. :thumbsup:
:love:

Still, as CK pointed out, not a single wapanese game is Fallout or JA so they are BSB simplistic Final Fantasy clones. :M
"I've seen my friend playing Final Fantasy 8 and it was shit. Conclusion: all japanese games are shit."
Codex Logic 101.

:smug:
 

GarfunkeL

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I guess folks missed the parrot at the end, which I used to try to convey the ironic manner of my last statement - I don't think there's actually any JRPG that only uses "FIGHT, MAGIC, FLEE" but that countering that with an actual ability/spell-list isn't really that convincing. As, the "options I can perform in combat" is such, isn't it? Why is it better than the sub-menu that pops up when you click "MAGIC" in FF? It isn't.

As to the latter part of the screen, I must've missed the "MOVE" command there, so I'm really sorry for all the butthurt that caused.

As to the actual points:
Big guns are expensive and out of reach for the majority of the game
Not that expensive and not really required for the fast shot+burst-fire combo, though they make life easier. Get M60 in F2 and you are golden throughout the game with small arms.

It is, because all of this stuff is not required. As long as you're equipped with level-appropriate armor, you can take the gunfire. Hiding behind corners is simply an overkill.

Either turn up the difficulty or stop following a game-guide. Even hardened PA can be wrecked in either Military Base or below Cathedral unless you limit the amount of hostiles you encounter during any single turn.

So I think there's a bit more to it than ATTACK and MAGIC, yeah.
Good to hear. KalosKathos might have explained that, instead of expecting that everyone else is a weeaboo who knows intimately the battlesystems of all JRPGs, as spekkio pointed out:
"I've seen my friend playing Final Fantasy 8 and it was shit. Conclusion: all japanese games are shit."
Not really my case but sure, if it makes you sleep easier in the night.

I find it curious that a post where I pointed out the oversimplification of Fallout's combat done by KalosKathos got one supporting post from Sceptic, one troll-post from a known troll and 5 butthurt-detected posts from CK, Bumface, KK himself and Spekkio. I guess it's time to do the Skyway and retreat to the strategy-forum. :salute:
 
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GarfunkeL said:
I guess folks missed the parrot at the end, which I used to try to convey the ironic manner of my last statement

So that's what the bird is for...is it? I though :smug: worked for that, too.

I find it curious that a post where I pointed out the oversimplification of Fallout's combat done by KalosKathos got one supporting post from Sceptic, one troll-post from a known troll and 5 butthurt-detected posts from CK, Bumface, KK himself and Spekkio.

Sorry...After a while you can't see the difference between jokes / not noticing something and genuine skyway-ism.
 

PorkaMorka

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GarfunkeL said:
I don't think there's actually any JRPG that only uses "FIGHT, MAGIC, FLEE"

2iu7sja.png


Yeah you forgot "ITEM".

And "DEFEND", but that's usually not used much.
 
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PorkaMorka said:

Final Fantasy Mystic Quest was first released in North America in 1992 and marketed as a "simplified role-playing game...designed for the entry-level player"[1] in an attempt to broaden the genre's appeal.[2] The game's presentation and battle system is broadly similar to that of the main series, but it differed in its inclusion of action-adventure game elements.

dre1232l.jpg
 

spekkio

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GarfunkeL said:
"I've seen my friend playing Final Fantasy 8 and it was shit. Conclusion: all japanese games are shit."
Not really my case but sure, if it makes you sleep easier in the night.
BRO! I wasn't thinking about YOU!

GarfunkeL said:
I find it curious that a post where I pointed out the oversimplification of Fallout's combat done by KalosKathos got one supporting post from Sceptic, one troll-post from a known troll and 5 butthurt-detected posts from CK, Bumface, KK himself and Spekkio. I guess it's time to do the Skyway and retreat to the strategy-forum. :salute:
You were simply dragged into the neverending battle between weaboofags and the PC-ubermenchen. Current episode:
here

:brofist: and non-homosexual hueg.
 

PorkaMorka

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Clockwork Knight said:
Final Fantasy Mystic Quest was first released in North America in 1992 and marketed as a "simplified role-playing game...designed for the entry-level player"[1] in an attempt to broaden the genre's appeal.[2] The game's presentation and battle system is broadly similar to that of the main series, but it differed in its inclusion of action-adventure game elements.

Ok how about

4lio7s.jpg


Can't deny the lineage of this one.
 
In My Safe Space
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Codex 2012
KalosKagathos said:
GarfunkeL said:
Fast shot + burst fire is a viable combat build in both Fallouts, especially when you switch from small guns to big guns.
Big guns are expensive and out of reach for the majority of the game (4-5 hours, that is). Meanwhile you can start raping more or less anything with not-the-pistol-from-Blade-Runner once you reach the Hub. When you can push damage numbers into triple digits 6 levels in the game, something is seriously wrong.
You get a first automatic weapon in Vault 15 which is practically the second location to visit in game.

KalosKagathos said:
True. But, moving still allows you to line up burst-fire opportunities or to place neutrals or allies between you and the enemies or for you to stay behind a corner to avoid fire from other, more distant enemies. While Fallout isn't JA2, it's not quite as simplistic as you try to portray it to be.
It is, because all of this stuff is not required. As long as you're equipped with level-appropriate armor, you can take the gunfire. Hiding behind corners is simply an overkill.
There are criticals that will kill you sooner or later if you keep exposing yourself to enemy fire.

Sceptic said:
KalosKagathos said:
It is, because all of this stuff is not required. As long as you're equipped with level-appropriate armor, you can take the gunfire.
Try to face those minigun-wielding supermutants, even in Power Armor, then tell me about this stuff being not required. ONE attack will insta-kill you, armor or not.
I don't remember anything like that happening regularly in vanilla Fallout. The stuff that usually kills in Fallout are criticals.

Mastermind said:
Anyone who thinks Fallout was even remotely tactical needs a lobotomy.
How about some arguments why?
 
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Awor said:
There are criticals that will kill you sooner or later if you keep exposing yourself to enemy fire.

Since they're random criticals, they can happen anyway. Random 300-damage-armor-trespassing shots aren't a very good mechanic if you want things to be tactical since the guy who is cautious can get fucked just like the Rambo guy, if the dice decide they hate him.
 

Zeus

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PorkaMorka said:
GarfunkeL said:
I don't think there's actually any JRPG that only uses "FIGHT, MAGIC, FLEE"

2iu7sja.png


Yeah you forgot "ITEM".

And "DEFEND", but that's usually not used much.

They're just keeping it oldschool. See: Wizardry 1.

w1battle.gif


Attack, Spell, Item, check. Defend is comparable to Parry. Final Fantasy games (Mystic Quest is a spin-off) all have a hidden Run command by holding L+R, so it's a combat command, just not visible on the menu.

That leaves us with Take Back, which allows you to re-do combat commands. Hitting CTRL+Z isn't exactly what I'd call a highly tactical combat command, but hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Edit: that High Priest on the right looks like a Mexican wrestler. LUCHA LIBRE!!!
 

PorkaMorka

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Right.

Blob combat was overly simplistic and primitive.

Then they invented tactical combat, and RPGs improved. Both in terms of thoughtful gameplay and in terms of fidelity to the P&P experience (P&P started with tactical combat, it was never limited to a blob).

I know in this era of decline it's hard to image that games could get better over time, but it happened.
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Awor Szurkrarz said:
Mastermind said:
Anyone who thinks Fallout was even remotely tactical needs a lobotomy.
How about some arguments why?

There's a number of arguments that could be made: the weapon skills are horribly balanced. Two styles (eyeshots and rapid fire) dwarf everything else. Enemies are fucking retarded. But all of that could be forgiven, if it weren't for the fact that there really isn't anything for you to do, other than shoot and hide behind a corner to avoid a counter-attack (which you don't have to since power armor can be acquired without firing a single shot). It's turn based popamole, plain and simple.
 
In My Safe Space
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Clockwork Knight said:
Awor said:
There are criticals that will kill you sooner or later if you keep exposing yourself to enemy fire.

Since they're random criticals, they can happen anyway. Random 300-damage-armor-trespassing shots aren't a very good mechanic if you want things to be tactical since the guy who is cautious can get fucked just like the Rambo guy, if the dice decide they hate him.
Which is a good reason to use the rudimentary tactic of popamole. Also, the main problem isn't that the enemies can cause criticals the main problem is that even with ability to hit someone's head or eyes with 95% probability they are very unreliable which means that no tactics will help to avoid getting swamped.
 
In My Safe Space
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Azrael the cat said:
SCO said:
Ruprekt said:
Zeus said:
Maybe he's just messing with them. Father of the turn-based JRPG, asked which American RPGs he likes: "Oblivion! ME2! BioShock!" ;)

Could well be. The Japanese sense of humor is like that.

Didn't you see that thread in here "the rpg of the decade" where tim cain choose oblivion?

Channeling your inner trollface.

I'm still not 100% certain that the 'humour' wasn't just Codex wishing. I've certainly never seen anything in Cain's interviews that would indicate he bucks the tide on Bethesda.

There's no shortage of folk who are good designers/artists/writers but praise the most retarded shite. You need to remember their approach to other games is warped somewhat by the fact that they're looking at them not in terms of 'Do I like this? Am I having fun? Is it challenging me?' but rather more like 'Could I have made this? How does this work?'. Cain has never made a TES-style game, and it wouldn't be surprising if he looked at something like Oblivion and thought 'holy crap that game sold SO fucking much. I've never made a game that has come to that much mass appeal, or been so accessible to the wider non-crpg audience!' and been blown away even though his own games are vastly superior.
To be honest, taking in account the kind of games Troika released, it's very possible that Tim Cain actually has much lower standards than most of us and isn't bothered by stuff that we consider big design flaws.
 

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