Development Info Zombie RPG Design Update

[DarkUnderlord]

Tags: DoubleBear Productions

Annie and Brian have been doing regular design updates on DoubleBear's upcoming Zombie RPG over at the Iron Tower Forums. <a href="http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1107.0.html">Here's the latest</a>:
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<blockquote>Skills in the ZRPG – unlike, say, Fallout - don’t work on a percentage system, but in a 10-point spread.[...] You won’t be able to max out ALL your skills in the game, not by a long shot – where you put those points is a significant choice.
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[...]
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SO. Skill perks. In addition to having heightened benefits from increasing your skills, at certain thresholds – level 3, level 6, and the max level of 10 – you will gain a Skill Perk in that particular skill. Sometimes this is an active skill: the Kick ability (gained at level 3 of Melee) knocks a target back a certain number of spaces. Other skills are passive, such as the level 3 Survival perk, Survey – which increases the player’s viewing area on the Area Map by 50%.
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It takes a small point investment to reach level 3, so the Perks are correspondingly handy, but not overly helpful. Level 6 takes more concentrated effort, so Perks are significantly improved – and the max Perk at level 10 is guaranteed to be awesome, albeit not in a “this is the win” cheesy and game-breaking way. No matter what skill you put your points into, it should be worth your investment, and Perks should be interesting, well-integrated into all other systems, and easy for the player to conceptualize – they should look at it and immediately know how and why it would be immediately useful to them.</blockquote>
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Earlier updates covered some of the other skills you can expect and how they might play out.

 

[Berekän]

I wonder when will be "Walking" a skill in future RPG's?

 

[Morbus]

He's stealing all my ideas honestly. <_<

 

[denizsi]

This is sounding more disappointing by the minute. There are few skills that cover a lot of ground, and absolutely no distinction between two characters doing two very different actions under the same skill with equal levels, except for their major stats perhaps, if there will be such stats to begin with.

So far, the skills are Melee, Ranged, Survival, Medical, Mechanic and Science. Survival skill alone, for instance, covers such things as line of sight on travel map, spotting and identifying wild life, pathfinding, navigation, travel speed and probably more like swimming or climbing. Also, travel speed is determined by whoever has got the highest Survival skill in the party, so even if your party consists of cripples and amputees on wheelchairs, having one olympic athlete will magically speed things up for everyone. So much for "survival".

Or take mechanic skill. It simply enables you to do anything involving moving parts. You can pick locks, repair stuff, build stuff and I don't know what else with just one skill.

I was hoping that they would add perks under skills, except as options with their own levels instead of abilities you gain by default. How is that any different than "perks" in Oblivion?

edit: Another example from Ranged skill, quoting Brian:

Put simply, more points in a skill means more viable weapon choices and more success in that form of combat.

I don't know what "viable" weapon choices might mean, but since he made an additional remark about probability of success, it sounds like "level 1 : handguns, level 3: smgs, level 5: shotguns etc"., which sounds ridiculous to me.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

This is sounding more disappointing by the minute. There are few skills that cover a lot of ground, and absolutely no distinction between two characters doing two very different actions under the same skill with equal levels, except for their major stats perhaps, if there will be such stats to begin with.

So far, the skills are Melee, Ranged, Survival, Medical, Mechanic and Science. Survival skill alone, for instance, covers such things as line of sight on travel map, spotting and identifying wild life, pathfinding, navigation, travel speed and probably more like swimming or climbing. Also, travel speed is determined by whoever has got the highest Survival skill in the party, so even if your party consists of cripples and amputees on wheelchairs, having one olympic athlete will magically speed things up for everyone. So much for "survival".

Or take mechanic skill. It simply enables you to do anything involving moving parts. You can pick locks, repair stuff, build stuff and I don't know what else with just one skill.

I was hoping that they would add perks under skills, except as options with their own levels instead of abilities you gain by default. How is that any different than "perks" in Oblivion?

edit: Another example from Ranged skill, quoting Brian:

Put simply, more points in a skill means more viable weapon choices and more success in that form of combat.

I don't know what "viable" weapon choices might mean, but since he made an additional remark about probability of success, it sounds like "level 1 : handguns, level 3: smgs, level 5: shotguns etc"., which sounds ridiculous to me.

Agreed. Perhaps Brian or Annie could spill some light on these decisions?

 

[Mystary!]

Im guessing all weapons are avalable at all skill levels, but a well aimed shot from a handgun from someone skilled in ranged might prove more effective than a low level using a smg, if ammo conservation is a big issue.

 

[Andhaira]

They are a two man (1 man one woman to be exact) team. Why are you expecting a revolution in game design?

 

[Monolith]

They are a two man (1 man one woman to be exact) team. Why are you expecting a revolution in game design?

Nobody is talking about revolution here, roll again for reading comprehension.

 

[denizsi]

Don't do that. Don't reply to nonsensical shit Andhaira posts. It's just... so sad and futile.

Im guessing all weapons are avalable at all skill levels, but a well aimed shot from a handgun from someone skilled in ranged might prove more effective than a low level using a smg, if ammo conservation is a big issue.

No, that's not clear and that's why I specifically pointed to Brian making the distinction between:

more viable weapon choices

and

more success in that form of combat.

 

[thesheeep]

So far, the skills are Melee, Ranged, Survival, Medical, Mechanic and Science. Survival skill alone, for instance, covers such things as line of sight on travel map, spotting and identifying wild life, pathfinding, navigation, travel speed and probably more like swimming or climbing. Also, travel speed is determined by whoever has got the highest Survival skill in the party, so even if your party consists of cripples and amputees on wheelchairs, having one olympic athlete will magically speed things up for everyone. So much for "survival".

Seriously... I don't want some light-RPG stuff.
If it's not going to be a RPG, that is okay. But five skills? What?
I just hope that denizsi really missed something and right now I'm too lazy too read all of it myself.

 

[denizsi]

Well, they have so far posted about those 6 skills, and other than the possibility of one more unannounced skill to cover social interactions, those skills so far cover everything you can dream of, going by Annie's and Brian's descriptions.

Now the fun part. I wrote why one Mechanic skill to rule all mechanical appliances would, in my opinion, be bad and gave an example:

No matter what point of view you look at it from, the skills it takes to pick a lock, fix a generator or do other semi-menially mechanical tasks are day and night. You don't just get to have an easier time fixing all kinds of stuff just because you also can pick a lock so good probably due to your pre-apocalypse line of job requiring meticulous control over your hands, perhaps as an engraver or clock repairman. Similarly, doing such laborious work as, going by your example, reinforcing a shelter long enough could even have a negative impact on your manual dexterity with your hands.

And someone over there at ITS -who is, somehow, overly joyed about every update on the game without the least bit of criticism- had this to say:

Not at all. I work as a sailing ship technician (mechanic/engineer) and i have to know how to take care of the : engine and everything that entails, plumbing - water systems and pumps, electricity from lights and cables and connections and batteries to fridges to navigation instruments to different pumps or windlasses, woodwork to repair all internal damage, im able to set up complete rigging and sails or repair any damage on them, or to repair or remove any outside damage to boats structure which involves metal and plastic work. I also sail better then most skippers and understand how the boat is behaving as a whole during manoeuvring or sailing. And thousand smaller details i dont care to number here.

I never noticed any of these skills interfering or lessening others or my manual dexterity or whatever.
Actually thats pretty ridiculous notion.

Based on my experience i would only need to see how to lockpick an ordinary lock once to learn how to do it myself. And i would surely learn it much quicker then someone who doesnt have any mechanical/technical experience.
Not to mention that compared to my senseis who taught me everything i know im barely a beginner.

You are wrong and thats because you are talking about something you have no real experience with.

Since im the only one qualified here i say its alright and thats it.

or
:facepalm: ?

I can't decide.

 

[Luzur]

so have Annie stopped posting here?

 

[HanoverF]

It's a condition of teaming with Iron Tower

 

[Jim Cojones]

so have Annie stopped posting here?

Her most recent post is from about 16 hours ago. But I don't think she visits Codex every hour or even every day so if she's going to response, it doesn't have to be fast.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, they have so far posted about those 6 skills, and other than the possibility of one more unannounced skill to cover social interactions, those skills so far cover everything you can dream of, going by Annie's and Brian's descriptions.

Now the fun part. I wrote why one Mechanic skill to rule all mechanical appliances would, in my opinion, be bad and gave an example:

No matter what point of view you look at it from, the skills it takes to pick a lock, fix a generator or do other semi-menially mechanical tasks are day and night. You don't just get to have an easier time fixing all kinds of stuff just because you also can pick a lock so good probably due to your pre-apocalypse line of job requiring meticulous control over your hands, perhaps as an engraver or clock repairman. Similarly, doing such laborious work as, going by your example, reinforcing a shelter long enough could even have a negative impact on your manual dexterity with your hands.

And someone over there at ITS -who is, somehow, overly joyed about every update on the game without the least bit of criticism- had this to say:

Not at all. I work as a sailing ship technician (mechanic/engineer) and i have to know how to take care of the : engine and everything that entails, plumbing - water systems and pumps, electricity from lights and cables and connections and batteries to fridges to navigation instruments to different pumps or windlasses, woodwork to repair all internal damage, im able to set up complete rigging and sails or repair any damage on them, or to repair or remove any outside damage to boats structure which involves metal and plastic work. I also sail better then most skippers and understand how the boat is behaving as a whole during manoeuvring or sailing. And thousand smaller details i dont care to number here.

I never noticed any of these skills interfering or lessening others or my manual dexterity or whatever.
Actually thats pretty ridiculous notion.

Based on my experience i would only need to see how to lockpick an ordinary lock once to learn how to do it myself. And i would surely learn it much quicker then someone who doesnt have any mechanical/technical experience.
Not to mention that compared to my senseis who taught me everything i know im barely a beginner.

You are wrong and thats because you are talking about something you have no real experience with.

Since im the only one qualified here i say its alright and thats it.

or
:facepalm: ?

I can't decide.

First of all, this "special someone from ITS forums" is a Codex member who uses a different name, so it's kinda silly to drag the issue from one forum to another for the crowd support.

Second, he isn't wrong. Ships' crews are known for high mechanical skills and the ability to fix almost anything: mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, etc. They aren't shy about opening locks and making basic tools, custom parts, so I really don't see what the issue is.

Your point was "no way that someone can both open locks and fix generators", which is 100% false.

 

[Fat Dragon]

Hey Vault Dweller, any idea how development is progressing on this game? Are they still just at the writing design docs stage or have they already began building the game?

 

[Gragt]

Now the fun part. I wrote why one Mechanic skill to rule all mechanical appliances would, in my opinion, be bad and gave an example:

That's an interesting point and I mostly agree with it, though I'd say that some semi-menial work can also require some dexterity as well as strenght, though not on the level of what is needed to pick a lock or repair a clock. I'm not sure that kind of heavy work would also destroy dexterity though I don't think it would train it. And both sides can definitely co-exist in a person.

Maybe one way to deal with a unique mechanical skill would be to have some actions have both a skill check and a dexterity or strenght check depending on the task.

Else the guy's personal exemple is falacious: I've known a few people who had great skill for both heavy mechanical work and very precise one — my granddad was one of them — but they mostly spent a lot of time training both parts. And I've also known quite a few people who could do some heavy duty tasks but be very clumsy when it came to precision work, and some could be very precise but have trouble with the heavy stuff.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Hey Vault Dweller, any idea how development is progressing on this game? Are they still just at the writing design docs stage or have they already began building the game?

They are working on the game and have quite a lot to show, but it's a lengthy process, so don't expect to see a gameplay video tomorrow. I can assure you that Brian is very, very serious about it, so you can focus on the warm and fuzzy feeling that this game is actually in development.

 

[denizsi]

First of all, this "special someone from ITS forums" is a Codex member who uses a different name, so it's kinda silly to drag the issue from one forum to another for the crowd support.

If that's crowd support, you have plenty of experience with that here on Codex, so it should come natural to you. No worries though, as that's not the case. I simply found it silly and I shared. You surely remember that that happens here as often as breathing.

Second, he isn't wrong. Ships' crews are known for high mechanical skills and the ability to fix almost anything: mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, etc. They aren't shy about opening locks and making basic tools, custom parts, so I really don't see what the issue is.

That's the point. He brought up a very, very specific example based on himself, tried to pass his own example as if it has to be a general rule and behaved as obnoxious as one can with such remarks as "you are wrong]". So now, does that mean that we should expect anyone with more than 3 levels in mechanics skill in Zombie RPG to be former ship crew or its equivalent? Fuck no. At least it shouldn't have to be and that's what half of what I'm arguing.

Your point was "no way that someone can both open locks and fix generators", which is 100% false.

No. My point was that "just because someone can open locks, it doesn't mean he can fix generators by default or vice versa" and that if someone spent half his life doing delicate mechanical work and never got accustomed to menial labour, menial labour could easly have negative impacts on his previous abilities, which is probably quite fucking true, though I'm not as obnoxious to give percentages.

 

[Silellak]

This is sounding more disappointing by the minute. There are few skills that cover a lot of ground, and absolutely no distinction between two characters doing two very different actions under the same skill with equal levels, except for their major stats perhaps, if there will be such stats to begin with.

So far, the skills are Melee, Ranged, Survival, Medical, Mechanic and Science. Survival skill alone, for instance, covers such things as line of sight on travel map, spotting and identifying wild life, pathfinding, navigation, travel speed and probably more like swimming or climbing. Also, travel speed is determined by whoever has got the highest Survival skill in the party, so even if your party consists of cripples and amputees on wheelchairs, having one olympic athlete will magically speed things up for everyone. So much for "survival".

Or take mechanic skill. It simply enables you to do anything involving moving parts. You can pick locks, repair stuff, build stuff and I don't know what else with just one skill.

I was hoping that they would add perks under skills, except as options with their own levels instead of abilities you gain by default. How is that any different than "perks" in Oblivion?

edit: Another example from Ranged skill, quoting Brian:

Put simply, more points in a skill means more viable weapon choices and more success in that form of combat.

I don't know what "viable" weapon choices might mean, but since he made an additional remark about probability of success, it sounds like "level 1 : handguns, level 3: smgs, level 5: shotguns etc"., which sounds ridiculous to me.

Agreed. Perhaps Brian or Annie could spill some light on these decisions?

Brian posted a couple times to provide some insight into their design philosophy:

I don't think there's any reason for things to get heated. It's just a game. Actually, that's precisely why we have one skill - it's a game, it makes it easier to abstract everything down to one skill. What kind of Mechanical aptitude would the clock repairman have? I don't know - is he a whiz at figuring out how objects are put together or does he just know how to fix clocks? If it's the former, the skill is higher, if the latter, then his skill is lower.

I think the easiest thing to remember is that if we were really striving for realism, then your character would most likely be killed the first time they got into combat. Or they would starve to death. Or get a fatal bacterial infection. Or break a leg and get left behind because you slowed the group down too much. But we're kind of giving everyone a fighting chance in the game because realism tends to not put us squarely at the center of the universe.

and

This definitely stands to be considered. It would double our count of Perks, and since quite a few of them are new abilities, not just a stat bump, this would make them a bit more work to do. One problem you run into whenever you add more options is balance, which was our chief reason for distilling skills and weapons into fewer distinct categories. I don't think it's a bad idea, and stands to be a possibility for at least the middle to high level perks.

I know that sometimes it seems like fewer options means a more limited game, but one of the problems I have with a lot of RPGS and action-RPGs is feeling like you have a ton of skills to invest in when only a few are actually viable in most situations. For example, Fallout has multiple weapon categories, but if you put all your points in unarmed or throwing, do you really stand a chance in most combat compared to the person who put points in small guns or big guns? Similarly, with games with weapon specialization (like D&D), don't you hate when, due to the luck of the drop, you get nothing but really powerful swords, but you put all your points in polearms? Or when a game has multiple, ever increasingly vicious-looking weapons to upgrade, but the designers balanced the game so that the default weapon could be useful in 99% of the encounters?

Yes, some of this can be overcome with better balancing of all skills, but in my experience, it's easier to do less and make the fewer skills feel a lot more significant than putting in more and letting the player find out halfway through the game that most of the skills are completely useless 90% of the time. That was our goal with our system - to never make people feel like they wasted points or couldn't see the very immediate benefit of putting points in any category. If there was any skill that felt like it was clearly overshadowed by the others, we cut or consolidated those skills. When we felt they were too powerful, we split them into two separate skills.

One thing to remember is that, even though we have fewer Skills, it's pretty much impossible to max or get significant levels in more than a couple. Combine this with weapons that function very differently from one another - in such a way that a party could play very differently with the same skill set but different set of weapons - there are quite a number of possibilities for characters. And while we haven't announced all our systems yet (some of which help flesh out a few of the systems we have announced), the game is less about becoming god-like and more about just being able to keep shit together. We do want people to feel like they have a lot of choices in their build, and we do think that this is the case - not that we don't reconsider or tweak ideas based on feedback, we do (and thanks for those comments). My experience making RPGs has taught me that it's really easy to add lots of stuff... and make it kinda, sorta work. Our goal on this project is to keep the design focused and polished enough that each time the player has a choice - whether it's a system or story choice - that it has enough weight to make it significant and satisfying in a ride the bear or ride the tiger kind of way.

 

[Vault Dweller]

No. My point was that "just because someone can open locks, it doesn't mean he can fix generators by default", which is probably quite fucking true, though I'm not as obnoxious to give percentages.

Just because someone can open locks, doesn't mean that he can fix a generator, that's true, but that wasn't the point. The point was that the mechanical skill is a simple representation of what's called mechanical aptitude - the understanding and working knowledge of basic mechanical and electrical principles operations. A handyman - one competent in a variety of small skills or inventive or ingenious in repair or maintenance work - will not be able to fix a nuclear reactor or open an advanced safe locking mechanism, but he would be able to open common locks, fix simple generators, do minor electric work, get a car engine working, replace breaks, install garage door openers, make a knife, etc.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

I think the argument against a universal mechanical skill is being made in the most foolish way possible; my only guess is that a lot of posters haven't spent a lot of time around people with mechanical aptitude. At low-level tasks (what we might consider "tier 1" mechanics), there actually is more or less a universal skill: steady hands, patience, the ability to look to see how things fit together and remember that, a basic understanding of electrical and mechanical forces, familiarity with common tools and parts, etc. A good electrician is usually pretty good at fixing a leaky pipe, if push comes to shove; much better than an average person, anyway.

I think the stronger argument against a universal skill is that operating very complicated machinery is *not* a universal skill, and certainly is not an additive skill on top of being good with small repairs. Most airplane pilots are probably no better than most lawyers at changing a lock cylinder, etc.

I'm guessing this issue will be addressed through some interplay of the science and mechanical abilities, though.

 

[Gragt]

It does make a lot more sense like this, as some kind of progression that englobes different kind of works.

 

[Zak]

Arcanum, Bloodlines and even The Witcher (despite all its skills being combat related) made me appreciate discrete skill progression: there's something nice about sinking a point into a skill and getting a noticeable change - that's normally how I play a continuous system anyway: dumping all 20 points into a single skill at a time to experience a noticeable improvement in something for that level.

And if this stays with only one perk at each stage of progression it sounds pretty similar to Arcanum's skill levelling; just without trainers/fees and the quest for the master level... Not a bad thing, but ZRPG has hardly anywhere the number of skills of Arcanum to begin with - more options in these perks would definitely help with developing unique builds.

 

[Gragt]

The use of skills, and their significance, will depend on how the game plays. You may have fewer skills but if they all play an important part and you are forced to chose between only a few of these, it might lead to different experiences.