Yet Another Morrowind Thread

[DraQ]

- Skyrim is close to DF in terms of scaling, OB was closer to OMGWTF.

Gibe 100 moni plos.

 

[Akratus]

SoJ u gief?

 

[hakuroshi]

In other words, they liked Oblivion for implementing everything that sucked in Daggerfall. But it also implemented everything that sucked in Morrowind, so I don't buy it.
As for the temples, DB and scaling:
- MW at least acknowledged the existence of temples with nudity in High Rocks AND CYRODIIL and cleverly covered up lack of nudity in its own temples with "Dunmer r intolerant and we have enough problems as it is".
- DB was present in MW and at least wasn't retarded.
- Skyrim is close to DF in terms of scaling, OB was closer to OMGWTF.

I did not say DF fans cannot be retarded. The facts are:

- A lot of DF fans acted in very butthurted fashion after MW release. Some managed to see beyond first impression, some didn't. Others did not care.

- A lot of DF features were absent from MW. Some because they sucked in the first place. Others did not fit for various reasons. MW added a lot, probably more than it takes out, but some were not easy to appreciate at first glance and some kinda sucked (opinions may vary).

- Absent features may be cleverly covered or compensated but still remain absent. For example DB is not joinable in MW. You have Morag Tong instead, which IMO superior in implementation to all DB incarnations, but different in flavor.

- Oblivion brought a lot of DF features back, butchering them by the way, but some DF fans, especially more retarded and LARPy inclined and who did not appreciate MW, may not see it this way. I am not sure about level scaling, it was atrocious in Oblivion, true, but it was not much worse then in DF or Arena mechanically. In DF human opponents were exactly your level unless you levelled up in a dungeon. Monsters did not change with level themselves, but dungeons were swarmed with liches instead of rats near level cup. I always hated it in DF, but some may not. On the other hand I do remember some nostalgic feeling from riding a horse and being able to join DB in Oblivion. First lasted a bit longer then second. And return to generic european fantasy after complete alieness of MW was not a bad move in itself. Conceptually Oblivion was not necessarily destined to be shit. It was shit implementation of an every single feature which made it one.

- If you look at early Codex, it had quite a low opinion on MW. Admittedly, Codex almost instantly recognized Oblivion as shit, but it prides itself in outlook. Other prized Oblivion to heaven, including DF players, who by virtue of oldfaggotry may claim to be oldschool.

Well, I'm mostly arguing for arguing sake now. Because if one prefer Oblivion to MW he is undeniably a retard. The point is, that a retard might like nonretarded things and may even be aware of it and be proud of it. But he never understands the difference.

 

[Sceptic]

dungeons were swarmed with liches instead of rats near level cup.

Is it that time of the year already where I have to come and call bullshit on this, again?

 

[thesheeep]

Nah, I know plenty of people who play mostly console games, that would be considered popamolers by Codex standards, that didn't even like Oblivion. The terribru level-scaling at least was a pretty ubiquitous complaint.

Yeah, that's also my experience.
Even people I know that definitely do not have a standard concerining such games as high as mine either do not like Oblivion or at the very least agree that both Skyrim and Morrowind (well, those that played Morrowind...) are superior.

 

[hakuroshi]

dungeons were swarmed with liches instead of rats near level cup.

Is it that time of the year already where I have to come and call bullshit on this, again?

You may call it anything you want, but I had a hard time finding simple critters on level 30 while ancient liches and daedra lords lurked in every corner.
You won't see such shit below level 15 though, which is probably a logical end-game.

 

[DraQ]

SoJ u gief?

Wrong shit game, bro.

- A lot of DF fans acted in very butthurted fashion after MW release. Some managed to see beyond first impression, some didn't. Others did not care.
- A lot of DF features were absent from MW. Some because they sucked in the first place. Others did not fit for various reasons. MW added a lot, probably more than it takes out, but some were not easy to appreciate at first glance and some kinda sucked (opinions may vary).

TBH I can sort of understand it, Morrowind is a very different game and doesn't have a lot of awesome stuff present in Daggerfall (which in turn lacks some of the most awesome stuff present in Morrowind). It's like they wanted a fighter jet but got an awesome attack helicopter instead.
With Oblivion, however it was more along the lines of plastic, fighter jet shaped squirt gun, kids sometimes use.

I am not sure about level scaling, it was atrocious in Oblivion, true, but it was not much worse then in DF or Arena mechanically.

Actually it was much, much worse. Yeah, human enemies were bad, but as far as monster go, you could still encounter low level monsters at high levels, and at low levels you could sometimes run into something far out of your league (I had vampire ancient jump me in a dungeon during MG quest at around lvl 3 *whimper* ). High level loot also remained rare even after it started dropping. If anything DF's scaling might resemble that in Skyrim somewhat, but definitely not the one in OB.

And return to generic european fantasy after complete alieness of MW was not a bad move in itself.

No, sorry. It was an absolutely retarded move, especially given that Cyrodiil was already established to be nothing of the sort.
If you want somewhat generic medieval Europe flavour (albeit with magic, orcs and a lot of naked witches and priestesses), you go High Rock - simple.

Well, I'm mostly arguing for arguing sake now. Because if one prefer Oblivion to MW he is undeniably a retard. The point is, that a retard might like nonretarded things and may even be aware of it and be proud of it. But he never understands the difference.

 

[hakuroshi]

Actually it was much, much worse. Yeah, human enemies were bad, but as far as monster go, you could still encounter low level monsters at high levels, and at low levels you could sometimes run into something far out of your league (I had vampire ancient jump me in a dungeon during MG quest at around lvl 3 *whimper* ). High level loot also remained rare even after it started dropping. If anything DF's scaling might resemble that in Skyrim somewhat, but definitely not the one in OB.

It was implemented much worse. The idea was the same though and quite different from MW with its non-level scaled npc and relatively mild variation in other mobs which depended on territory (still it could turn bad in Grazeland for example, but you should be retardedly high level to see it). DF system worked much better then in Oblivion because it just did work until level 15 or so when you would not notice much scaling and, as you say, (and I believe it is a crucial difference) you could encounter high level critter early on (I fled the dungeon once after hearing Ancient Vamp cries on level 2, yeah, and all the tales of slaying Daedra Lord at level1 is simply not possible in Oblivion - and finishing the game at level 1 does not count). As you don't need levelling higher in DF, it is completely avoidable. But it is there.

Anyway, I don't think anyone with a bit of a sense would consider an Oblivion level scaling a good thing and welcome return to DF times. I may be wrong in putting it as a reason why some DF players consider Oblivion a good game. Still Beth turned back to something different from MW and closer to DF in that case as well as in many others. Why they thought it as an improvement is beyond me.

And return to generic european fantasy after complete alieness of MW was not a bad move in itself.

No, sorry. It was an absolutely retarded move, especially given that Cyrodiil was already established to be nothing of the sort.
If you want somewhat generic medieval Europe flavour (albeit with magic, orcs and a lot of naked witches and priestesses), you go High Rock - simple.

I am not defending turning Cyrodill into generic fantasy land, that was a retarded move. But to make a generic fantasy game after MW weirdness was not a bad idea IMO. It would offend MW players anyway, but generic and familiar does not have to be dumb. After all Gothic may be considered a "generic european fantasy" game. Unfortunately that was not the casi with Oblivion.

 

[DraQ]

Holy shit, the last scene here killed me. I think I woke up everyone in the building, but I don't care anymore. I'm dead.

http://lparchive.org/Elder-Scrolls-3-Morrowind/Update 43/

The LP's itself is pretty derpy, though.
Seems like a compassfag as well.

generic and familiar does not have to be dumb.

It does when it pisses all over your established setting.

It's essentially "we dun care lol", and developer just plain not caring about their game is usually a bad sign.

 

[IDtenT]

I know of at least one DF fan and gaming journalist (lol) who rates Oblivion much higher than Morrowind and feels it is closer to DF in experience.

 

[DraQ]

I know of at least one DF fan and gaming journalist (lol) who rates Oblivion much higher than Morrowind and feels it is closer to DF in experience.

He should train everyone in lockpicking so that people wouldn't have to carry keys.

 

[DalekFlay]

Oblivion's derp is the result of multiple factors really. There's not just dumbing down, there's rushing for a console launch and pushing for full VO before it made sense and other such things. Each game since has been a little better so hopefully they, like some other developers recently, are coming back to where they started after the "HD" era and newb Western genre players through them for a loop for 6 years or so.

We shall see.

In any event my point is I don't think Oblivion was as conceptually bad as it was in execution. A more standard fantasy setting and Daggerfall style makes a lot of sense. It's what they did with it that was ass, and I think there were more reasons for that than 100% incompetence.

 

[DraQ]

- Skyrim is close to DF in terms of scaling, OB was closer to OMGWTF.

Gibe 100 moni plos.

(updated)

 

[abnaxus]

I know of at least one DF fan and gaming journalist (lol) who rates Oblivion much higher than Morrowind and feels it is closer to DF in experience.

They have very similar derp.

In Daggerfall you eventually had random bandits dropping Daedric equipment.

Plus you had shops selling Daedric armour and weapons. And at night you could open all shops with a basic Open spell.

 

[DraQ]

Plus you had shops selling Daedric armour and weapons. And at night you could open all shops with a basic Open spell.

They fixed this in oblivion by making vendor inventory unreachable from the gameworld, so breaking into shops at night, while possible, served no purpose.

 

[AngryEddy]

I know of at least one DF fan and gaming journalist (lol) who rates Oblivion much higher than Morrowind and feels it is closer to DF in experience.

May he get cancer of the mouth and eyes.

 

[AngryEddy]

Try having a go at Almalexia when she's surrounded by her guards.

I always killed her "Her Hand's" guards after I killed her. They are easily the hardest fight in the game, bar none.

 

[baturinsky]

Plus you had shops selling Daedric armour and weapons. And at night you could open all shops with a basic Open spell.

They fixed this in oblivion by making vendor inventory unreachable from the gameworld, so breaking into shops at night, while possible, served no purpose.

I remember there being some good stealable stuff on display in shops.

 

[hakuroshi]

Plus you had shops selling Daedric armour and weapons. And at night you could open all shops with a basic Open spell.

The shop content was also level scaled, but trickier, as the chance of a good item depended on shop quality. Open spell trick was, I think, an oversight or a bug which never got fixed. Same as waiting inside until closing time. But magic in DF trivialize many things. It's actually much more exciting to RP a non-magical thief with lockpicking skill. Success was not guaranteed and you can be seen by Guards ('Halt! Halt!"). Such RP as many good moments in DF is close to LARP though because it requires ignoring some aspects of the game. So a derp, yes, but not of Oblivion scale.

MW shops were derpy in their own way with sleepless owners and open 24-h. And a few charming bugs as well.

 

[DalekFlay]

I might be weird but 24 hour shops never break my immersion. I've never gone in an armor shop at 3AM and been like "OMG this should not be open!"

 

[RK47]

 

[hakuroshi]

Immershun sometimes is a tough bitch.

 

[DraQ]

I remember there being some good stealable stuff on display in shops.

Stealable - yes.
Good - not so much.

You basically only had some worst or second worst tier stuff lying about so that the player wouldn't be wondering if they actually entered the right door. But since you generally found this kind of stuff in the starter dungeon... well, yeah.

I might be weird but 24 hour shops never break my immersion. I've never gone in an armor shop at 3AM and been like "OMG this should not be open!"

I do like schedules, but it's not like they are absolutely necessary.

 

[hakuroshi]

Schedules should have some meaning in the game beside immersion to be worthwhile. They should be part to general day/night cycle (or similar) which is more then cosmetic changes in digital weather. As there was none in MW, I suppose, there was no point in putting locks on shops. I've played with mod which tried to give schedules to npcs, besides a few bugs it added nothing of value, just slowed the game.

On a side note, MW npcs worked fine as placeholders for "insert you imagination here" similar to DF ones. The game gave you some cues and your imagination did the rest. If it could.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

And if it couldn't, you were left with signposts sculpted in barely humanoid forms for NPCs.

I might be weird but 24 hour shops never break my immersion. I've never gone in an armor shop at 3AM and been like "OMG this should not be open!"

Considering the PC only needs to sleep when he wants to level up, maybe the shopkeeper is just grinding Mercantile.

Some shops in Oblivion have unique items to steal. I recall waterwalking shock-resistant boots in the general shop at Anvil. (but yeah, pretty shitty quality)