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Game News XCOM: Enemy Unknown or what could've been

Borelli

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
1,269
The programmers believed they were already pushing the limits of what could be done in their game. XCOM would have a "fog of war" effect, revealing portions of the map only when the player had a unit that could see them. They were also building destructible environments, so that when players shot at parts of buildings or vehicles, those things would break apart in realistic ways. These were elements many players would expect, but they added complexity to the design. And they took time. Time everyone but Solomon believed they didn't have.

Doesn't the original have random maps? And man that video, it has time units, TIME UNITS and it seems you could add them to a shot to make it more accurate like in Jagged Alliance but they had cut them, CUT THEM UP:mad:. Why the fuck would anyone willingly do that!?
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
The big strength of the game as they released it is the performance of the AI once you are in "real fighting", i.e. after the enemies have activated and shit. I genuinely have no idea what the AI is gonna do most of the time if it has several units out and active*, yet even without rote predictable behaviors it makes really dangerous decisions and knows many tricks that AI usually doesn't have in these kinds of games. It actually lives up to being an essentially simple, easily understood system that leads to complex and interesting situational thinking in that case.

But unfortunately they designed the entire rest of the game in ways that undermine that, like the crappy "always 3, always all one type" spawning and moving mechanics and the fact that the player's damage output curve lets you play like three quarters of the game without doing any "real fighting" by spotting and annihilating spawns in a single turn. That shit couldn't have been fixed just by putting a bunch of complexity in (which likely would open up a bunch of AI holes), they just fucked up the good thing they probably made on accident.

*The AI is hypercommitted to shooting units that are out of cover in an exploitable way, but yeah
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
The programmers believed they were already pushing the limits of what could be done in their game. XCOM would have a "fog of war" effect, revealing portions of the map only when the player had a unit that could see them. They were also building destructible environments, so that when players shot at parts of buildings or vehicles, those things would break apart in realistic ways. These were elements many players would expect, but they added complexity to the design. And they took time. Time everyone but Solomon believed they didn't have.

Doesn't the original have random maps? And man that video, it has time units, TIME UNITS and it seems you could add them to a shot to make it more accurate like in Jagged Alliance but they had cut them, CUT THEM UP:mad:. Why the fuck would anyone willingly do that!?
Designing those sorts of things takes nothing. A good programmer could add in destructible walls and objects in a day or two, in all likelihood, not counting bug-fixing and testing. What really takes time is making the art assets. You need alternate versions of every environment object, you need new particle effects, that sort of thing. It basically multiples the art asset count by 3 when it comes to environment and props, and that's not something most developers are going to take up when making something as simple as a piece of a wall or building can already take a team of artists a few days.
 

CappenVarra

phase-based phantasmist
Patron
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
2,912
Location
Ardamai
I'm glad I'm not the only one who hired lithuanians after reading that article...
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,872,659
Oh for fuck's sake, they almost made it like it should've been and then dumbfucks went "durr I don't get".
This fucking industry.
 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,463
Oh for fuck's sake, they almost made it like it should've been and then dumbfucks went "durr I don't get".
This fucking industry.

Pretty much this. It's sort of encouraging that Solomon had his heart in the right place before everyone else said "NO, you've got to turn this into Gears of Cover", though.
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
The game would be hugely improved by a few easy tweaks to unfuck the spawn system, which is the biggest seeping wound in the game, not the simplicity. The spawn system exacerbates the static maps, because it makes being able to safely kill those little 3-man spawns one by one the most important tactic in the game, which means memorization wins the day.

Then some randomizing stuff to make the first couple of months on the strategic level something besides rote repetition.
 

norolim

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Messages
1,012
Location
Pawland
I'm honestly shattered by this news. We should convince Solomon to release the original code and then finish the game ourselves ;)
 

ValeVelKal

Arcane
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
1,605
Designing those sorts of things takes nothing. A good programmer could add in destructible walls and objects in a day or two, in all likelihood
That's complete bullocks. For something properly done for a modern game, you would need a very very minimum of 3 weeks for a basic implementation for 2- 3 coders, preferably one of them senior, much more if it is done late in the dev of the game (i.e. the game was not coded around that). I am speaking about destroying whole sections of walls / structure there, not punching a door-sized hole in the wall JA2 style - which would still take a couple days minimum.

In addition of the basic "wall disappears when hit by big boom thing", you have to implement a lot of additional stuff :

- Resistance of the different type of walls, and "wall-destruction" capacity of weapons. Sure, your sniper rifle can inflict 1000 damage to anyone it hits, but it won't destroy a wall. So you need to revisit all buildings and weapons, add a new parameter. If done late, it can take a lot of time.
- Chance of collapsing. Surely you don't wall the 2nd floor of a building to "float" if all the walls of the first floor are destroyed. You don't want either one section of wall to hold a huge area, for instance if the only remaining section of the wall is on the exterior west wing of a huge U-shaped building.
- Effect on collapsing on anything below. If a mirador falls on your tank, the tank should survive fairly well. If a 15 floors building, the rumbles should occupy several floor themselves, and your tank is lost. On the other hand, Mirador falling on a guy
=> Not good.
- The tiles are collapsing, now what happens to all the decorations / characters / vehicles ON the collapsing tiles ? What if you tank was on the second floor or a 2-floor building for some reason ?

In addition, your GD better be good, because the impact on the game will be huge.
Basic problems for a GD :
- should building collapse be checked and done during a turn, or should they be checked for collapsing between your turn and your opponent turn ?
- how to avoid the player just destroying everything from afar, like you do at Blitzkrieg when you have arty and not your opponent (UFO solution : civilians and weight of equipment ?
- what to do if a target is made unaccessible ?

The AI should be improved significantly also.

After this "basic" implementation, you have a huge amount of debug, balancing, test to do. And then you also have the issue with creating all the ressources for the different "stage" of a wall (intact, destroyed at the minimum) + rumbles + many other isues.
UFO allowed full destruction of buildings (which was cool) because back then it was acceptable to see the second floor "floating" above the ground, and of course the last alien inside (happened to me). In a modern game, this would NOT be acceptable.

As for the game being rejected because it was too close of the original, this is not the main reason if I read correctly :

"It's hard to even describe now," Solomon says. "I don't know what I was thinking. It was the original game, and then over the top of that I had put ... soldier abilities ... a cover system ... new alien abilities ... new weapons. It was ... incredibly complicated — not complex. Complex is fun, complicated is bad. This was a very complicated game. It was more complicated than the original."

In two words - feature creep. Not good for a game complex already whose target is not grognard. See Wake of the Gods for Heroes III. Each individual addition is cool, but the total is bad. It is hard to admit, but the game might be better currently (and yes, there are several things badly lacking - including of course total destructability, and randomness) than in its "first Salomon" iteration. Remember that by that moment, the randomness of the levels was gone already.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,278
Location
Terra da Garoa
I'm very angry on how they showed tons of farm areas on the previous biulds, even making a barn as background to the game menu, and yet the released game doesn't have a single fucking farm level...
 

MicoSelva

backlog digger
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Vigil's Keep
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So... It seems AAA companies are still capable of making good games, they just don't want to.
I'm not sure if that's good or bad news.
 

EG

Nullified
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Messages
4,264
What the fuck are you faggots complaining about? Impossible was harder in the new XCOM than the old pathetic shit. It actually made you think for a while.

Someone didn't patch his game, fixing the "Impossible is really just Easy" bug. :(
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
No, he's right. X-Com is easy at any difficulty level once you understand the correct strategy (which is abusing spotting) and beyond that the strategy layer is so forgiving you can have multiple total party kills and still win no problem. The only way a player that knows what he is doing and keeps playing after fuckups can lose is to trigger a base invasion in month 1 or maybe month 2. It is very, very possible to lose XCOM, even on just Classic, with a TPK snowball. Whether that's important or not is your call but it's the case.

TFTD makes it a little harder because of the horrendous maps and because you have to manage Lobstermen in the midgame on, which are a giant pain in the ass in various ways... but I dunno how much it actually matters. I haven't been able to play a game of TFTD to completion one way or the other in like a decade because the maps are so annoying.
 

aris

Arcane
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
11,613
Oh, ffs.

You know what kinda angers me even more? When you couple this newspiece with the team's general attitude before neuxcom was released.

'This is a true UFO games guys! Really! We are very passionate and really wanted to bring it to a new audience and it is really what we always wanted UFO to actually be! Like, really! This is actually an upgrade of the original even!'

Fuck all of you, two-faced pricks.
NEWS FLASH: games are made to fucking sell. How the fuck do you expect that it would sell, if the developers went and said, "yeah, we're not happy with how this game turned out at all, and you shouldn't buy this if you are a highborn virgin with superior intelligence belonging to the pc master race like the typical codexer, unless you are a consoletard", like you'd want it. It's your own damn fault for buying into marketing, and not doing an informed research before buying the game, you snotfaced tool.
 

EG

Nullified
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Messages
4,264
Eh, you get good enough at X-COM and the one month to base invasion is pretty fun (and survivable). Spam proximity gernades (or smoke grenades and lazor weapons) and you're good.

What's the spotting cheat? o_O

How close (or far) is xenoauts from X-COM, anyhow? I seem to be lacking the ability to find a playable version online, though I could have sworn they existed two years ago.
 
In My Safe Space
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
21,899
Codex 2012
UFO allowed full destruction of buildings (which was cool) because back then it was acceptable to see the second floor "floating" above the ground, and of course the last alien inside (happened to me). In a modern game, this would NOT be acceptable.
X-Com 3 had building damage with collapsing.
 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,463
As an aside, new XCOM has floaty building elements when you destroy walls. So so much for that "it'd never be allowed in modern gaming!" idea.
 

Lightknight

Liturgist
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
705
You need alternate versions of every environment object
Man, it's not the 90's anymore, we have multicore CPUs and physx-enabled chips. Literally nothing stops you from swapping a wall in a TBS just before powerful impact with a stand-in that literally has every brick as a separate entity. Wouldnt work in a shooter, but TBS ?

new XCOM has floaty building elements when you destroy walls.
I thought you cant ever destroy the girders ?
 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,463
You need alternate versions of every environment object
Man, it's not the 90's anymore, we have multicore CPUs and physx-enabled chips. Literally nothing stops you from swapping a wall in a TBS just before powerful impact with a stand-in that literally has every brick as a separate entity. Wouldnt work in a shooter, but TBS ?

new XCOM has floaty building elements when you destroy walls.
I thought you cant ever destroy the girders ?

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "girders", but you can definitely destroy some foundationally supporting walls on the cafe/library/restaurant terror mission map, and the walls above them just hover there. Also, as an aside (I agree with you, by the way) the new XCOM is definitely using a very FPS-oriented codebase with the UE engine. The multiplayer is hugely intolerant of latency, to the point where if you're not the host you lose out on some turns, flying units don't work properly, shots will go different places on different clients visually, etc. All the problems FPS games have with latency, but which simply shouldn't happen in TBS.
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
You need alternate versions of every environment object
Man, it's not the 90's anymore, we have multicore CPUs and physx-enabled chips. Literally nothing stops you from swapping a wall in a TBS just before powerful impact with a stand-in that literally has every brick as a separate entity. Wouldnt work in a shooter, but TBS ?

Bro what XCOM really needs is iron sites otherwise not tactical
 

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