Why so much AoD butthurt?

[Vault Dweller]

My one and only issue with the game was that in spite of trying a whole lot of builds, many of them with charisma dumped, I could only kill the assassin as a mercenary 'reliably'(7 out of 10) with a dagger spec. I tried maxing con, maxing str, maxing dex, maxing int, well rounded builds, and everything in between, and that's the only thing that worked.

Which, having read all of the arguments here and on the Iron Tower forums, still doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn't. You can kill him 'reliably', 7 out of 10, with every weapon if you use nothing but power attacks.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That doesn't make any sense. If the combat is similar then that's one point of similarity with Fallout.

Some similarities with Fallout and being Fallout-like are two very, very different things. Have you played Lionheart?

The way I see it, interacting with the environment is something you can do at any time, without any scripted events and hidden boxes that trigger them. Basically, scripted events fake the interaction. I'm talking about the real deal here.

Silent Storm had the basics done well - you could climb fences, open windows and get inside, you could blow holes in the walls to get in, you could jump down, etc. You couldn't climb walls or climb trees to get a good shot or bring down bridges (basically buildings and fences were "real", the rest was "fake").

Scripting events are a cheap and convenient way to get around (and no, it's just the animations, of course), but you are not interacting with the environment there. You are interacting with a hidden box. You click on it and trigger an event.

This is stupid. Environmental interaction is environmental interaction. It doesn't matter how it's implemented.

If you say so.

Your game doesn't allow you to talk to every NPC in the world, some of them are just background fluff. Does that make NPC interaction in AoD "fake"?

You're confusing 'some' with 'all'.

A single player TB stat based RPG with a bend of strategic combat and a heavy dose of C&C. If you morons expected something else then it's your fault.

Maybe that's the problem. VD distilled the essence of the C&C based storyfag RPG, paring away a lot of the extraneous bullshit, leaving just the core gameplay.

And certain people realized that what they liked about previous storyfag RPGs *was* the extraneous bullshit, not the core gameplay.

Ah, but this isn't about extraneous non-RPG bullshit. VD has created a very specific subtype of "RPG" and he's defined the other subtypes as extraneous bullshit.

Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth? Where did I claim that all other subtypes are 'extraneous bullshit'? Just because I prefer teleporting between NPCs in cities or present 'environmental interaction' differently doesn't mean that I have anything against games that are designed differently.

 

[Infinitron]

Just because I prefer teleporting between NPCs in cities or present 'environmental interaction' differently doesn't mean that I have anything against games that are designed differently.

Good. Keep that in mind the next time you answer somebody who asks you why AoD is like X and not like Y.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If I recall correctly, I said that I dislike running back and forth in games (which, obviously, doesn't mean that I hate 99% of games) and that I prefer presenting obvious options via a text menu (which, obviously, doesn't mean that I hate games that do it differently).

 

[hiver]

Why exactly are you wasting so much time on retards that are not even physically capable of thinking in any other but strawman manner?
Whats the point? Its not like he will actually understand you or accept your arguments.

Sure, its not my business how you spend your time but... really, ... whats the damn point?

 

[Infinitron]

Why exactly are you wasting so much time on retards that are not even physically capable of thinking in any other but strawman manner?
Whats the point? Its not like he will actually understand you or accept your arguments.

Sure, its not my business how you spend your time but... really, ... whats the damn point?

Are you addressing me?




Seriously though, butt out hiver. VD and I are getting along just fine. Believe it or not, I do not hate AoD, nor do I particularly want it to change.

 

[hiver]

 

[FeelTheRads]

If I recall correctly, I said that I dislike running back and forth in games (which, obviously, doesn't mean that I hate 99% of games) and that I prefer presenting obvious options via a text menu (which, obviously, doesn't mean that I hate games that do it differently).

And if I recall correctly every time you like to claim that there's nothing to do anyway because all other games just have "barrel inspecting" and "pixel hunting" and who the hell wants that anyway?
You may not realize it, but when trying to defend your decision you just lump everything else in the same category. Or if not, then at least you claim that this is what people want when they ask for interactivity. Which is just as wrong.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If I recall correctly, I said that I dislike running back and forth in games (which, obviously, doesn't mean that I hate 99% of games) and that I prefer presenting obvious options via a text menu (which, obviously, doesn't mean that I hate games that do it differently).

And if I recall correctly every time you like to claim that there's nothing to do anyway because all other games just have "barrel inspecting" and "pixel hunting" and who the hell wants that anyway?

And? Does it mean that all these games are shit or subpar because the environmental interaction is limited to barrel inspecting?

Scripting is a different story and Fallout did brilliant things with it, which I never criticized or complained about.

 

[communard]

Playing the AoD demo is the closest thing to an actual PnP session I've experienced in a CRPG and the first game in ages that feels truly innovative. Then again I'm a narrativist/simulationist homofag.

 

[likaq]

Playing the AoD demo is the closest thing to an actual PnP session I've experienced in a CRPG and the first game in ages that feels truly innovative.

This is why i love AoD so much.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Likewise, I find it extremely tiresome how people hold AoD to the highest standards imaginary ideals,

lol, fuck off

 

[Azrael the cat]

On one hand, you say that people shouldn't expect so much from a po' little indie game, but on the other hand, you say that their expectations are "imaginary".

I'm saying that when people compare AoD to Fallout and Arcanum, they forget that it's an indie game. When people ask why there is no environmental interaction, unless they mean 'where are my chests with loot, bitch!', they expect way too much for such thing doesn't exist yet and we've never promised to do anything about it.

Of course, if all they are saying is 'but I wanted to click on that button!", it's a different issue that has nothing to do with environmental interaction.

I think you did hit on something earlier when you mentioned the illusion of interaction (I mean specifically in regard to running around maps, rather than teleporting to each NPC). Don't get me wrong - I used to love text adventures and MUDs, but the switch from text to point+click adventure wasn't seen as a loss by adventure gamers, even though the introduction of graphics only really added illusion at the cost of the sophisticated choices that were around near the very end of the text adventure genre. I understand the decision to auto-teleport - I get frustrated running around maps pointlessly as well. But for me, it's kind of like the discussion of endings the Codex had recently - there can be a greater benefit to something which in its immediate form is somewhat painful. Running around the Hive, or FO maps not only gave the good ol' 'incidentally discovered quests' and allowed the use of environment for foreshadowing (so much of PS:T in particular - all the little random conversations, all the bits of minor art, seem to foreshadow later plot points despite being trivial at the time you encounter them) - both of which I view as being beyond an indie project - but also the feeling of scale and world layout (which I feel is more a design decision than a resource one). The open map in FO gives the feel of the explorer, whereas walking around in BG2 and PS:T just helps set out the world by giving a sense of scale and layout. The under-Amn content of BG2 is a good example of one that would lose a lot through teleportation, in that walking through this ginormous, seemingly endless, underground dungeon beneath Amn does a lot to characterise the setting.

For a company that is actually TOO obsessed with creating illusion over content, one of the ways in which Bioware has declined is by gradually dropping the illusion of geography within hubs (first restricting the 'run around a giant hub mixing combat and non-combat quests and getting kind of lost' to the intro hub, then scrapping it altogether). I think I feel probably the same way as you during the mindless running around between stuff. The payoff for me comes over time - it adds up to a feeling of immersion and scale.

My concern is that it's also the kind of thing that could conceivably sink a project commercially, and deprive you of the chance to learn and improve. Under-estimating the importance of illusion is a really easy mistake to make when the current industry is so illusion-obsessed at the cost of meaningful content. It's also the kind of thing that a developer can learn from, if it gets the chance. I know that the teleporting thing has certainly made me half-hearted about purchasing, and I think it will have a similar affect on a lot of non-Codex (and, frankly, a lot of Codex) market segments - and that's even compared to mindless, stupid, annoying running without looting or environmental interaction to create genuine content out of it.

Then again, last couple of times I went to Europe, I preferred those walking tours that all the cities seem to have, even to GOOD coach tours. And I don't like walking. Just getting oriented in a place has its appeal to me.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Always a pleasure to read your posts, Azrael.

Quick comments:

- "the switch from text to point+click adventure wasn't seen as a loss by adventure gamers even though the introduction of graphics only really added illusion" - precisely, adding visuals wasn't about interaction, but about showing rather than telling where your adventures take place.

- "there can be a greater benefit to something which in its immediate form is somewhat painful" - there can be, of course, but that doesn't change the fact that being forced to run between NPCs is NOT the only way to go. We teleport you within quests. You're free to explore on your own and run into people, situations, and places of interest. The concept can be developed further, of course, but that doesn't mean that it's flawed by default.

I don't recall anyone bitching that you were teleported to the Maltese Falcon to start a gunfight up close and personal. It's not the same, of course, but did anyone miss not running all the way back?

- "I know that the teleporting thing has certainly made me half-hearted about purchasing, and I think it will have a similar affect on a lot of non-Codex (and, frankly, a lot of Codex) market segments" - looks this way, doesn't it? Oh well...

 

[Marsal]

Vault Dweller

How is Dead State's Kickstarter success going to influence AoD (with you sharing developers and engine)? Is the release going to shift to Friday now or are you still aiming for Thursday? Is the "technical" work done and you're just touching up quests and scripting? Are we going to see some engine improvements spill over to AoD?

If this has been answered, just give me the link.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Vault Dweller

How is Dead State's Kickstarter success going to influence AoD (with you sharing developers and engine)?Is the release going to shift to Friday now or are you still aiming for Thursday? Is the "technical" work done and you're just touching up quests and scripting? Are we going to see some engine improvements spill over to AoD?

If this has been answered, just give me the link.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2778.0.html

"Nick's work on AoD is almost done. Alchemy is the last item on his list. Beyond that, it's bug-fixing (not related to scripting issues) and optimization, and since it's the same engine, whatever he does will benefit both games.

All animations are done. Ivan did two more sets (non-human), I'd like to have one more and we're done. We have 464 animations already, so that's plenty enough. All locations are done as well, we just need to port them from TGE to T3D and do some minor tweaks here and there.

The majority of work revolves around quests and dialogues, so Nick, Oscar, and Ivan will have plenty of time for Dead State."

 

[Marsal]

 

[surajrathi]

Ego clans don't last... i think NUKE will be ok now as long as its membership are in it for their Community and not the payout and nut-cupping minors.

 

[EG]

I'm looking forward to seeing the final product, VD. I know my tomfoolery on the forums likely doesn't give that impress.

 

[Computer Gamer Refugee]

I don't know about butthurt, but given my tastes in games, if the full game is as good as the demo AoD will probably be the best game I have played in the last 10 years.

Its not all that good. I have not gotten much time to play games for the past ten years.

 

[Saduj]

I've been following AoD for a few years and read the Iron Tower/RPG Codex forums from time to time. IMO, alot of the AoD trashing comes from the fact that people have been discussing the game's development for years with the actual developer. And the result is that alot of people have suggestions that VD is not going to use. And many of the conversations seem to go like this:

Helpful poster: I think AoD needs X
VD: I considered that but decided not to do it that way and here is why....
Helpful poster: Yes, but the game would be so much better to me is you did it this way. The way you have it now sucks because.....
VD: Well I like it the way I have it now and your way sucks because.....

And then the tone just gets more and more negative until Helpful Poster and those who agree with him decide that VD is a jerk and his game sucks. I'm not saying this is the only reason why some people don't like the game but its a large contributing factor.

IMO, both sides are "wrong" at times. I've seen some good suggestions shot down with "game quality/integrity" arguments that don't make much sense to me. On the other hand, just because you "know" someone on an internet forum doesn't mean you should have input into something that he's investing a huge amount of time and personal resources into. He's making the investment and taking the risk, not you. Even if he's asking for suggestions, each suggestion represents hours and hours of potential work. Obviously, the people making the game are only going to invest those hours in suggestions they like. The game has been in development long enough as it is (which also fosters easy if not particularly insightful criticisms).

I'm very much looking forward to this game. But if I had discussed everything I thought needing changing with VD and he ended up telling me all my ideas suck in so many words, maybe I wouldn't be.

Note: I'm not trying to say VD is jerk. Some people are very persistent in hammering him with suggestions that he already politely responded to with "Thanks, but no thanks". It would be very hard for anyone to just let it drop without stating their own case more and more strongly until someone feels insulted. The interweb isn't a polite place to begin with.

 

[cutterjohn]

I've seen across the boards (especially with the DS kickstarter and the BM == VD thing) some bitching whinning trolling typical codex comments about the AoD demo not delivering, or not being a RPG, or whatever.

So what exactly made people butthurt about AoD?

Where should I start?

A game that sounded ALMOST finished nearly a half-a-decade ago?

Gfx 2 decades OOD.

Tiny demos every 3 or 4y that really aren't any better than the 1st demo. (i.e. the demos are good, but hey, let's see the final game sometime this milennia)

Soryy, I'm not trying to be harsh, but man, it's either this game is already almost done enough or it's going to be toastily overcooked soon unless yer upgrading yer gfx(yeh Vogel gfx suck donkeyballz).

 

[cutterjohn]

Or IOW I expect that AoD will NEVAR EVAR be finished/released, sadly...