Why do you enjoy turn based strategy vs real time?

[Serious_Business]

My two criterias for what consitutes a good game - be it realtime or turnbased - are complexity and good AI (no weebshit as well I suppose but that's a different topic). It's a lot easier to find realtime games with Good AI compared to turnbased, but it's a lot easier to find complex games in turnbased compared to realtime, rarely do you find jewels that incorporate both be it in TB or RT.

Besides comparing both is like comparing apples and oranges since they really are that different. It's like comparing a General in the middle of an engagement with a Ruler/Controller/Manager in the middle of his elaborate long-term 5d-chess plan he's currently cooking up in his Castle/Mansion/Office. The real reason there's even a topic of Realtime vs. Turnbased is because Strategy has become a niche market where we rarely get good new games, and when that happens you can only get one and not both. So if you enjoy realtime and you see turnbased release, you understandably get salty because that could have been a turnbased game or vice versa.

Yes, these criterias might not be compatible in so far as AI cannot handle complex systems (yet?). I think strategy games shouldn't have AI opponents operate on the same rules as the player ; to make them competent they have to handle a simplified environment. Effectively in strategy games you are not playing against multiple AI opponents, but a general system which constitutes these opponents ; this makes me believe that there is a space to make the AI function entirely differently than the player, in so far at least as it isn't meant to replace an actual human opponent (which is the usual model, but a bad one for single player games).

It's not so different to compare them in so far as one would compare strategy and tactics. Typically as you say one has to do with actual engagements and the other with the general plan these engagements are set in, but they interact with each other in so far as the general plan (strategy) interacts with the results of the engagements (tactics). I don't think it has much to do with the supposedly "niche market" of strategy and its "rare new games" ; if anything the division is military or political (strategy being handled by politics or the State, and tactics being something the actual forces have to handle). It really is a question of speed in so far as tactics are fast and strategy has much more to do with planning, although strategy requires fast adaptation as well. Of course you can have turned-based (slow) tactics or real time (fast) strategy.

To go back to the subject of course you'll get the idea that turned-based games have more possibilities for complexities, although again an AI usually cannot handle it - which makes AI for simpler games usually much more competent and complex (the chess example). This idea that real time games are "dumb" ignores that their design is can be much more intricate ; real-time action is much harder to handle than turned-based systems, at least for designers. We have to place ourselves in the shoes of designers if you want to think at least a step above the consumer, which in this case is the "monocle" way to operate.

I think one simple but interesting idea to make turned-based systems more dynamic is to introduce a timer, although I'll admit that I personnally can't handle it to save my life. It could be a dynamic timer too depending on the situation. Also in a RtwP system you could limit the number or time of pauses accordingly. I'm not saying players would enjoy it, but you know, fuck 'em.

 

[IDtenT]

TB with grid, preferably hexes, or it's a shit game.

 

[KainenMorden]

Do you mind giving your thoughts on why you prefer hexes?

 

[Dadd]

Hexes are awful out of combat.

 

[IDtenT]

Do you mind giving your thoughts on why you prefer hexes?

Diagonal movement.

 

[Alex]

Do you mind giving your thoughts on why you prefer hexes?

Diagonal movement.

It is easy enough to account for that by multiplying diagonal movement costs by 1.5. It might not be precise, but that is hardly much of an issue when hexagons won't even let you move straight on both axes.

By the way, since we are on the subject, is there any particular reason why tiling might be preferable over free movement besides technical issues such as making the computer play effectively like that?

 

[IDtenT]

Tiling allows for tactics that naturally lends itself more to turn based / AP combat. Turn based combat is already an abstraction, there is no reason not to have tiling. TB without tiling is a wannabee RTwP.

 

[KainenMorden]

"Turn based combat is already an abstraction"

Just curious what you mean by this exactly. Not being facetious, honestly curious because I am far less monocled than many others commenting here.

 

[Space Satan]

Because I have a child and a wife both of whom are fond of running to me with random and mostly absurd and always SUPER URGENT requests I have to divert my attention to.
Good luck explaining that you cannot pause to go and switch a TV\change cartoon\shoo a moster\look at a bug\meet imaginary friend\look at a doll\fix broken doll to a 5 year old. Or that you are too busy to move around some heavy shit in our apartments to your wife.
Turn-based strategies solve most of such problems as that's why Paradox games are awesome - you can pause at any time. And RTS survive today mostly in multiplayer, so single player is never an option. While TBS predominantly single-player games.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Because I have a child and a wife both of whom are fond of running to me with random and mostly absurd and always SUPER URGENT requests I have to divert my attention to.
Good luck explaining that you cannot pause to go and switch a TV\change cartoon\shoo a moster\look at a bug\meet imaginary friend\look at a doll\fix broken doll to a 5 year old. Or that you are too busy to move around some heavy shit in our apartments to your wife.
Turn-based strategies solve most of such problems as that's why Paradox games are awesome - you can pause at any time. And RTS survive today mostly in multiplayer, so single player is never an option. While TBS predominantly single-player games.

paradox games are mostly not turn based

 

[Space Satan]

RTS, technically, are not "real-time" because youcan press Esc and game pauses.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Do you mind giving your thoughts on why you prefer hexes?

Hexagons look better.

Not justifying it any further than that, sometimes style is all the reason you need.

 

[Galdred]

Do you mind giving your thoughts on why you prefer hexes?

Diagonal movement.

It is easy enough to account for that by multiplying diagonal movement costs by 1.5. It might not be precise, but that is hardly much of an issue when hexagons won't even let you move straight on both axes.

By the way, since we are on the subject, is there any particular reason why tiling might be preferable over free movement besides technical issues such as making the computer play effectively like that?

No, that's not true. The square tiles also makes it super awkward when units try to move around two opponents that are diagonally adjacent. Even in Field of Glory 2, it becomes a mess because of it, when your unit ends up chasing an opponent diagonally.
The issue is not just the 1.5 cost multiplier, but the fact that some tiles are "more adjacent" than others.
However, my experience is also that there is no good way to represent orthogonal architecture on a hex grid.

 

[Matalarata]

Hexes also limit the number of unit that can concurrently attack a specific tile (6 vs 8 for squares), this usually makes for more interesting surround tactics, since an exposed "side" still can be attacked by 3 units but you need less for a complete surround. Also relevant when AoO due to zone of control come into play.

I like both RTwP and TB, although the latter is my fav. RTS, at least unpausable ones, lost their appeal to me long ago.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

However, my experience is also that there is no good way to represent orthogonal architecture on a hex grid.

if I understand what you mean, this issue could be worked around by using very small 'micro' tiles and defining nearly everything as taking up multiple tiles, probably using some form of a hierarchical grid data structure.

 

[Galdred]

However, my experience is also that there is no good way to represent orthogonal architecture on a hex grid.

if I understand what you mean, this issue could be worked around by using very small 'micro' tiles and defining nearly everything as taking up multiple tiles, probably using some form of a hierarchical grid data structure.

Yes, that is true. It also works with gridless games, like most miniature wargames, Combat Mission (which also features simultaneous turn resolution), or the Age of Fear series. As for everything, these are trade offs, and Slitherine probably decided it was worth going from the hexagons used in former tactical wargames (Great Battles of Alexander/Caesar/Hannibal, Steel Panthers), to a square grid (Battle Academy, Field of Glory 2).
It also always triggered me to have armies zig zag on the hexagonal grid in the Great Battle series, so gridless or small cells are an elegant solution, but the cost is that you spend more time fiddling with the UI to get your units arranged like you want (ie, supporting each other without being too close for an artillery strike or whatever).
The time I spent redoing my turns to get everything right in Close Combat ended up making me preferring Steel Panthers. Gridless is much less of an issue with real time games, though, so it is an advantage they have over TB.

 

[Norfleet]

Yes, these criterias might not be compatible in so far as AI cannot handle complex systems (yet?). I think strategy games shouldn't have AI opponents operate on the same rules as the player ; to make them competent they have to handle a simplified environment. Effectively in strategy games you are not playing against multiple AI opponents, but a general system which constitutes these opponents ; this makes me believe that there is a space to make the AI function entirely differently than the player, in so far at least as it isn't meant to replace an actual human opponent (which is the usual model, but a bad one for single player games).

You can get away with this if it's an asymmetric game where what the player controls and what the AI controls aren't actually really similar items at all, like if the player is controlling humans, but the AI is a horde of aliens, bugs, robots, or zombies, or otherwise simply represents something on a completely different scale from the player. But then you're starting to move towards Tower Defense.

 

[Kev Inkline]

Should rename thread to "Why do you enjoy chess vs bar fights?", then the question should answer itself.

 

[adrix89]

I would prefer a Real Time System but the moment they implement that the level of intelligence of developers goes to the bottom and things like tactics and formations goes out the window.
So the answer to the question is I want the Developers shot for doing crimes against game-manity.

Turn Based is just too slow at a certain level of scale especially if you want a "proper" strategy game like a wargame.

 

[NaturallyCarnivorousSheep]

Real time because more real.

 

[Vic]

for the same reason I enjoy books over film, you can play it at your tempo and don't fuck up your brain trying to keep up with all the shit they throw at you on the scree

 

[NaturallyCarnivorousSheep]

for the same reason I enjoy books over film, you can play it at your tempo and don't fuck up your brain trying to keep up with all the shit they throw at you on the scree

You r weak

 

[Johannes]

I think one simple but interesting idea to make turned-based systems more dynamic is to introduce a timer, although I'll admit that I personnally can't handle it to save my life. It could be a dynamic timer too depending on the situation. Also in a RtwP system you could limit the number or time of pauses accordingly. I'm not saying players would enjoy it, but you know, fuck 'em.

That's p. standard in multilayer tb games. Don't want to spend all day waiting for the other guy (unless it's a pbem kinda deal).


But for vs AI, it's mostly annoying if you can't go take a piss while playing your leisurely map painter.

 

[Pocgels]

I can eat while playing turn-based