Why Do WRPGs Get Saddled with Crap Settings?

[Mogar]

Hey! Play IcePick Lodge games. (Pathologic, Tension).
While I'm not all for 'Russia is THE SPIRITUAL shit!!1', being a buffer zone between east and west sometimes manifests in things that take the best from both worlds - namely bizzare settings, yet highly nonlinear gameplay and C&C.

There is an issue of taking the worst of the both worlds, but hey - you cannot have everything.

In case you missed, here is a set of articles about pathologic (contains severe spoilers, though):
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04 ... -the-body/

And Tension (or Turgor):

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/01 ... es-typrop/

Yeah, I heard about Pathologic on my last visit too the Chans and decided to check it out. I like its style of C&C. Its not all, baby-eating evil, neutral, cartoon good, but actual choices and consequences. Evil choices are often the most logical choices in a society falling apart, and arises from the need to survive. The game has a very "screw others" attitude and is extremely difficult to play as a purely altruistic knight-in-shining armor type. For instances, some of the scenarios in the game go like this. You have a very limited amount of food, barely enough to survive. A starving child, probably not more then 7 or so comes up to you begging for it. What do you do? Or maybe you're the one starving and you see the child, with a loaf of bread. He's an easy kill, what do you do?

Tension also looks interesting. I might need to check that out.

And here's an FF setting that isn't too over the top, at least when compared to others in the series. I think this setting may work well in a WRPG.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmmHv34d ... re=related

In general, though, JRPGs try to be different as far as settings go. Saying that FF's boil down "medieval fairy fantasy" or "high-tech fantasy hybrid" isn't exactly fair. The two categories you set down are quite broad. Here, I'll give my go at each of the FF settings.

FFI-3 aren't worth mentioning. Just your standard DnD fair.

FFIV- kinda random; mixed sword and sorcery with long lost tech like spaceships, and giant ass robots.

FFV-don't know; think they went back to heroic fantasy

FFVI-early to mid 19th century steampunk world where magic has just arisen after a couple of thousand years and threatens to disrupt the status quo; generally, a cool setting with a Victorian vibe; see video link for more

FFVII-dystopic setting where an evil mega-corporation runs everything; has an ecoterrorist bent and is kinda retarded

FFVIII-don't know

FFIX-look at my previous post

FFX-weird eastern Asian setting where religion controls everything; don't know much except that the setting tends to contradict itself, or so I hear

FFXII-don't care

 

[Mogar]

So, uh guys, even though this vaguely discusses RPG designs, do you think it should be moved to General RPG Discussion. Looking at the other topics, it seems like I've made a mistake on where I placed this.

 

[Talonfire]

Why? It's concerning RPG design.

Anyway, while JRPGs can have "imaginative" settings you'll find that they often fall into the same trap that WRPGs do. Most JRPGs I've played have actually been set in a typical fantasy setting; just with crappy anime style story telling and archetypes like Tales of Phantasia and those weird Dragon Quest games. Final Fantasy is actually one of the few JRPG series' that isn't (usually) a more generalized medieval Europe setting; some of them were however, see Final Fantasy I-IV.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

And Final Fantasy games since 8 have had more or less the same art style and setting. I haven't played other JRPG's much, for obvious reasons, so I wouldn't know if they have some really unique art and settings, but I suppose they have either a ton of completely random, not fleshed out stuff like the FF games, or the same old cookie-cutter stuff from the 8-bit era.

 

[Mogar]

And Final Fantasy games since 8 have had more or less the same art style and setting. I haven't played other JRPG's much, for obvious reasons, so I wouldn't know if they have some really unique art and settings, but I suppose they have either a ton of completely random, not fleshed out stuff like the FF games, or the same old cookie-cutter stuff from the 8-bit era.

8, 9, 10, 12, and even the upcoming 13 from what I've seen, have vastly, vastly different art directions / settings.

 

[Luzur]

maybe we should switch?

western companies do asian pop-culture fantasy and japanese companies do elf-and-dwarf fantasy

 

[Mogar]

maybe we should switch?

western companies do asian pop-culture fantasy and japanese companies do elf-and-dwarf fantasy

That... would be interesting. At least we'd get some truly fantastic settings with good gameplay. You know, with their success in Japan, Bethesda may try to pull this off. It would be hilarious to watch the fail that would happen.

 

[crufty]

I have long said

The best anime is American scripts drawn by Japenese artists.

I think JRPGs would do well w/similar design. JRPG writing is shit by western standards. The designs are fabulous, but without any substance they leave me cold, like card board cut outs.

Square would do well to pick up Chris A and flesh out a great setting / story line / real dialogue w/awesome setting & char designs.

Another reason why JRPGS have such fabulous designs is that usually there is little to no choice. How hard is it come up with an awesome design when you know that the clothing/armor/weaponry is going to be one of three things?

Western RPGS characters tend to be very open. Character A may wear any armor, carry any weapon, cast any spell, etc. JRPGs characters, by contrast, tend towards little finite state automatons: Level 1 - Wear a robe, carry a spear. Level 5 - Wear a black robe and crown, carry a golden spear. Level 10 - Wear a black robe, golden helmet, carry a flaming golden spear.

 

[mondblut]

The best anime is American scripts drawn by Japenese artists.

The best anime is a Hiroshima bombing documentary.

Square would do well to pick up Chris A and flesh out... w/awesome char designs.

Yeah, like this:

God forbid.

Another reason why JRPGS shouldn't exist is that usually there is little to no choice.

Fixed.

 

[crufty]

Another reason why JRPGS shouldn't exist is that usually there is little to no choice.

Fixed.

Pretty much.




Every now and then I try one out and usually, regret it.

 

[feighnt]

The best anime is a Hiroshima bombing documentary.

you mean Barefoot Gen?

http://www.amazon.ca/Barefoot-Gen-Mamor ... 861&sr=8-6

 

[mondblut]

you mean Barefoot Gen?

I mean cameraman onboard of "Necessary Evil".

 

[PorkaMorka]

I don't want to come off as homophobic or anything, but past the SNES, japanese settings got really, really gay.

I'll take generic fantasy any day over effeminate teens wearing hot pants and 6 different belts. There has typically been at least one very, very gay* element in each final fantasy advertisement I've seen.

And I must say, I cannot really point to an otherwise good game that was ruined by being too generic. I can imagine quite a few generic but good games that'd be damaged for me by the inclusion of some of the more ridiculous elements of JRPG settings.

* yes, I'm using it in the same sense high school kids use the term, but it fits.

 

[Dire Roach]

The gayness in FF character design was always there, they just didn't have the technology (especially the voice acting) to show it in all its glory.

Most of that early gayness was pretty awesome compared to the post-SNES era, though.

 

[ever]

FF3/6 Had the best music, the best art and possibly one of the better stories and was enjoyable for 14 year old me and seeing those pics again remind me how awesome the art was

fuuuuuuuuuuuu such an awesome game

Why did the rest have to suck sooo much

 

[Mogar]

The gayness in FF character design was always there, they just didn't have the technology (especially the voice acting) to show it in all its glory.

Most of that early gayness was pretty awesome compared to the post-SNES era, though.

Amano always went for more of a surreal, dreamlike fantasy then anything else. Granted, he drew his males particularly effeminately, but I tend not to berate a culture's ideal of beauty, being a child of both an Asian and a Westerner. Besides, he was still 100 times better then the art directors of Oblivion, and 1000 times better then the zipper crazed Nomura . And you have to give him credit, his art direction was incredible.

Since when Western RPGs have crap settings?

Sure, most RPGs are either "Generic Medieval European Fantasy" or "Standard Sci-Fi Setting", but look at some GOOD settings:

Fallout: Retro-Futuristic Post-Nuclear. A lot of influences from Flash Gordon, Mad Max, Threads, The Hills Have Eyes and Western Movies.

Arcanum: Tolkeniense steam-punk setting during the Industrial Revolution in another planet. A conflict between magic and technology.

Yes, and Fallout, Arcanum, Deus Ex, and Planescape are my favorite games in the world. Fallout's setting in particular. I love retrofuturism gone terribly awry.

FF3/6 Had the best music, the best art and possibly one of the better stories and was enjoyable for 14 year old me and seeing those pics again remind me how awesome the art was

fuuuuuuuuuuuu such an awesome game

Why did the rest have to suck sooo much

FF6's, for its time, had one of the greatest story(better then traverse dungeon, find artifact, slay BBEG), and deepest characters (kinda laughable by today's standards) in any game ever. Its setting was consistent and very cool, something too many RPGs have difficulty with (either its extremely cool and incoherent, or deep but mundane). It had this operesque Victorian granduer about it that made it instantly idiosyncratic.

 

[ever]

What I'd kill for a BG2 style RPG with an FF6 style art direction and setting

*froths at mouth*

oh man I think I might come...

 

[mondblut]

What I'd kill for a BG2 style RPG with an FF6 style art direction and setting

Like... Planescape?

 

[Wyrmlord]

Oh snap!

 

[Mogar]

What I'd kill for a BG2 style RPG with an FF6 style art direction and setting

Like... Planescape?

Or Septerra Core, except that wasn't all that good...

 

[GarfunkeL]

Is that Terra on Magi-Tek armor?

And yeah, since they were messy little sprites, I always thought they were "real" people instead of the retarded teen squad that later FF's have. FF6 ftw!

 

[Claw]

Care to, elaborate? Because I can read it two ways. Either you're expressing your disapproval of the statement that generic fantasy shit beats a unique and wacky setting or showing that you concur with mondblut that a tried and true setting with more depth is better then a retarded JRPG setting.

You "can" read it in two ways? Why would anyone use ellipses to signify approval? Did anyone ever?
The conventional - and intuitive - understanding is speechlessness, usually implying shock at how terribly, terribly wrong someone is.

 

[Fenril]

I agree that SOME aspects of the creativity behind what you describe as settings...I think its more like art assets and scenarios, are praiseworthy.

Still I think you are missing some of the main reasons why some types of people cant stand JRPGs, I dont agree with those that said the "worlds" or "settings" are senseless, or the characters are too stylised, the japanese tendency is for over the top stylised characters and art assets, Ive seen various examples in anime and jrpg examples, some I kind of like, some I find great, some revolt me, but thats aesthetics.

That which turns me off regarding Jrpgs is not aesthetics or taste regarding art approaches, or at least never only that.

Its just the patterns of the behaviour of the characters and the interaction between them, an rpg does not need to be a mature content experience, nor extremely serious, but when you have characters that switch from 9 year old girl sentimentality displays to 10 year old boy emotional responses in the middle of every other plot sequence or dialogue... well it can be funny the first couple of times but then it becomes incredibly irritating and ruins any kind of possible immersion for me.

Conversely some western rpgs are way too childish and one dimensional for their own good, within western standards, and their art is very unimaginative but thats another story.

 

[Mogar]

Care to, elaborate? Because I can read it two ways. Either you're expressing your disapproval of the statement that generic fantasy shit beats a unique and wacky setting or showing that you concur with mondblut that a tried and true setting with more depth is better then a retarded JRPG setting.

You "can" read it in two ways? Why would anyone use ellipses to signify approval? Did anyone ever?
The conventional - and intuitive - understanding is speechlessness, usually implying shock at how terribly, terribly wrong someone is.

I've seen it used to demonstrate that one agrees with what the other says. Kinda like a "Yeah, what he said" agreement. I just wanted to clarify his opinion, as some on the codex do like Medieval European Fantasy.

 

[bhlaab]

Because wrpgs are based on pen and paper games which tend to have very basic settings, meant to be built upon by other people. Hell, 9 out of 10 prolific crpgs released in the past 15 years ARE dungeons and dragons settings

JRPGS take their inspiration from animes and mangas which are some crazy shit where black is white and up is down and the plots are pure melodrama