Why are most indie games so dumb-looking/sounding?

[Machocruz]

Compare that to platformers of 20 years ago or so made by professionals - big varied levels and something like 3 lives motherfucker eat shit

Like I said, you can't expect that kind of quality from a couple of dudes, especially if you want the art AND the game-play to be on par. It took years of experience for Nintendo to get to Super Mario. It took years of evolution to provide a standard and base for Prince of Persia, and Mechner was possibly somewhat brilliant to begin with.

Meat Boy can't compete with those expertly made platformers, but it's nearer the standard than the rest of its ilk.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Visuals take time and money, it's where the overwhelming majority of man hours and resources gets sunk in a project. If even most studios with funding fail at it, then indies don't stand a fucking chance. Hence the different visual styles that will be eyecatching in a screenshot or video.

 

[hoopy]

Compare that to platformers of 20 years ago or so made by professionals - big varied levels and something like 3 lives motherfucker eat shit

Like I said, you can't expect that kind of quality from a couple of dudes, especially if you want the art AND the game-play to be on par.

Then how did four people make SuperFrog? How did four people make Super Mario Bros.?

It took years of experience for Nintendo to get to Super Mario. It took years of evolution to provide a standard and base for Prince of Persia, and Mechner was possibly somewhat brilliant to begin with.

Indie devs can't have years of experience? What?

And let's also keep in mind that indie devs have over three decades of games to draw from. Miyamoto & co didn't have that luxury in 1985.

 

[Machocruz]

I'd like to see these indies make a platformer that's as good as SuperFrog. Shit, they can't even make a game that looks as good, despite having better tools, more colors and higher resolutions.

SuperFrog was made by just five people, or four if you discount the person who only made the intro animation. Team17 also continues to be an independent developer.

Team17 are professionals. They're practical. They don't have pretenses of "art" and "creativity" and self expression or Kounter Kulture. SuperFrog has good art like a Renaissance painting has good art, or a classic Hollywood film has good sound and cinematography. The paintings (and films) weren't all that creative, they had to follow the whims of their patrons and style of their time, but they were technically profound and looked good. People say how creative, how imaginative 2001: A Space Odyssey is, but it's a very practical Sci Fi film. Kubrick was as professional and practical as anyone has ever been in film. 2001 is not an art movie, it's a grand Hollywood production made by guys who know filmmaking and science and special effects. Not by hipsters who are "so above it all." I guessed they missed the age when good products were good all around.

Anyway, yeah, first time I even seen this game. If that was on SNES it would have been huge.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

4 pages arguing about the meaning of "indie"

What a shitty thread.

 

[Machocruz]

Compare that to platformers of 20 years ago or so made by professionals - big varied levels and something like 3 lives motherfucker eat shit

Like I said, you can't expect that kind of quality from a couple of dudes, especially if you want the art AND the game-play to be on par.

Then how did four people make SuperFrog? How did four people make Super Mario Bros.?

It took years of experience for Nintendo to get to Super Mario. It took years of evolution to provide a standard and base for Prince of Persia, and Mechner was possibly somewhat brilliant to begin with.

Indie devs can't have years of experience? What?

And let's also keep in mind that indie devs have over three decades of games to draw from. Miyamoto & co didn't have that luxury in 1985.

Four skilled and experienced people made Super Mario and SuperFrog, not one or two hipsters who want to express themselves and be ironic. Nintendo wasn't considered independent, they were a professional game company with years of arcade experience. If they needed 10 people to work on SMB, I'm sure they could have found the resources to do that.

SuperFrog really isn't too artistic, it's just visually appealing. It's a cut above most platform games, but still just good, solid work.

But neither of those games look like Yoshi's Island, which was only possible because Nintendo was larger at that point than they began. Imagine if they tried to nail that art style and create the standard for platforming games at once, with a staff of 2-4.

Are you trying to tell me the the shit indie games that the OP linked to are made by people with the practical experience and talent of 1983 Nintendo? Those are not the products of people with years of game-making experience and skill. Yes, indie devs POTENTIALLY have decades of games to draw from, but I don't see the results of most of them doing that.

 

[hoopy]

I thought you were talking about numbers. i.e. a couple of guys can't make a great game because doing so requires many more people. And that indie devs just somehow can't accumulate experience like professionals.

Your posts are confusing.

 

[MetalCraze]

To throw everything from 15 cent i-store apps to KOTC together and label it all like shit is fucking retarded though.

It is all labeled with a single term - "indie games"

Also KotC gets too much verbal fap on the Codex but in truth next to nobody here played it unlike evil mainstream pseudo-RPGs.

Like I said, you can't expect that kind of quality from a couple of dudes, especially if you want the art AND the game-play to be on par. It took years of experience for Nintendo to get to Super Mario. It took years of evolution to provide a standard and base for Prince of Persia, and Mechner was possibly somewhat brilliant to begin with.

Which means there is no need to reinvent the wheel - look at those examples and improve on them. The problem is that not only indies can't make a properly good game - they don't want to. They often clone some simple but popular game of the yesteryear except they water it down and add retarded stuff to it like "move your mouse to move cursor" tutorials and much more casual difficulty.
And I'm not talking just about platformers although they are the most prevalent in their crowd.


The good devs are as usual in the middle between AAA and indies - meaning large-enough independent studios that do selfpublishing and have experienced devs. Easiest example - Paradox.
They have enough devs to churn out shitty move-bricks-around games like Minecraft and Terraria or another MMO - but somehow they make niche and complex. replayable games instead that are actually good.

 

[Machocruz]

I thought you were talking about numbers. i.e. a couple of guys can't make a great game because doing so requires many more people. And that indie devs just somehow can't accumulate experience like professionals.

Your posts are confusing.

My original point was a couple of people, without quite a bit of skill, intelligence, and experience, would have a very hard time nailing down both great play mechanics and a high level of artistry (whether visually or conceptually). It would require two people having to be highly competent in many areas. The mechanics might be great, but the visuals bland, uninspired, story full of half-baked intellectual ideas. Or, like AAA games, it could be the best looking thing ever, but the mechanics are rotten. I haven't seen both aspects nailed in the genre by indies lately. Of course, their idea of art dooms them to failure anyway.

Of course independent devs had made great games, legendary games. Doom was lucky enough to have a talented programmer and an artist capable of creating iconic imagery. Dwarf Fortress may be the most impressive two man game of all time (of course, ASCII). The kind of indie I thought we were talking about is the artsy, ironic, pretentious, "retro" kind, who think Limbo and Braid are the second coming.

 

[torpid]

My problem with most indie games is that they're trying to tap the casual market and become the next $5-10 surprise hit on Steam & co., so even though they often have a cute/clever concept they rarely exploit it to its fullest potential, and you end up instead with short and easy games that either revolve around an underdeveloped gimmick or are just casualized, oh-so ironic rehashes of old school titles. Considering who the purchasable games are targeted at, it isn't surprising that most indie games I've enjoyed were freeware.

 

[Trash]

To throw everything from 15 cent i-store apps to KOTC together and label it all like shit is fucking retarded though.

It is all labeled with a single term - "indie games"

Well, then the same indie genre you constantly call shit that must die also produces quality gems like that KOTC I mentioned. Which is my entire point. Crap with the occasional gem. Like in all entertainment.

Also KotC gets too much verbal fap on the Codex

Never fucking mind then.

 

[Roguey]

Compare that to platformers of 20 years ago or so made by professionals - big varied levels and something like 3 lives motherfucker eat shit

You keep going on about this but you know they only did it that way so that everyone wouldn't complete them within an hour? And even then there were still quite a few that used password systems as a way to save your progress. No one wants to redo sections they've already mastered now (save states are an emulator feature for a reason) and you're nuts for even wanting that.

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS I HAVE LEARNED ONE THING

INDIES ARE TOTALLY SURREAL

BY THAT I MEAN THAT PIZZA TOTALLY TASTES GOOD

 

[MetalCraze]

Well, then the same indie genre you constantly call shit that must die also produces quality gems like that KOTC I mentioned. Which is my entire point. Crap with the occasional gem. Like in all entertainment.

Except the crap-to-good ratio in indie games is the lowest of them all.

Never fucking mind then.

If you would've read it till the end before the righteous butthurt overwhelmed you - you wouldn't miss a point.

You keep going on about this but you know they only did it that way so that everyone wouldn't complete them within an hour? And even then there were still quite a few that used password systems as a way to save your progress. No one wants to redo sections they've already mastered now (save states are an emulator feature for a reason) and you're nuts for even wanting that.

Back in the day I was completing such games and it seemed normal - guess that "No one" dude is just a big fucking pussy eh? But I guess he can complete his games in an hour now. Dude has to see end credits even when he doesn't try to learn to play.

Dumbing down is evil, but not in indie games as they are God Given

 

[Metro]

Indie games suck it's nothing new.

You really are the biggest dumbfuck on the Codex.

Shouldn't he get that special tag?

 

[Wunderpurps]

Well, then the same indie genre you constantly call shit that must die also produces quality gems like that KOTC I mentioned. Which is my entire point. Crap with the occasional gem. Like in all entertainment.

It's a good game but it still looks and sounds like shit.

I think that's what the OP meant more than anything, especially the ridiculous cutesy cartoon/comic style art which I agree just make me fill up with red rage.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Well, then the same indie genre you constantly call shit that must die also produces quality gems like that KOTC I mentioned. Which is my entire point. Crap with the occasional gem. Like in all entertainment.

Except the crap-to-good ratio in indie games is the lowest of them all.

So is the price. By a much wider margin. If I spent 100$ on indie games and a 100$ on publisher games, I'd get a fuckton more gems and enjoyable playtime out of the indie games.

 

[Machocruz]

I'm not writing off indie games. There is better quality in certain genres though. There are more decent Rogue-likes, adventure games, and rpgs than there are platformers.

What's the word on Spelunky and Cave Story?

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Generally, makers of decent games don't call them "indie", but use proper names like freeware or shareware.

 

[Jaesun]

Indie games suck it's nothing new.

You really are the biggest dumbfuck on the Codex.

Shouldn't he get that special tag?

We don't give out special tags anymore.

 

[Destroid]

Generally, makers of decent games don't call them "indie", but use proper names like freeware or shareware.

Those are not at all the same as indie.

 

[Trash]

Am just going to put this here.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=61089

 

[Humanity has risen!]

I have to say that for myself, talking about the quality of indie games versus more commercial games wasn't what was attempting to do, although I was fairly sure that the topic would ultimately end up veering in that direction. All those things like most indie games being bad and there existing some gems, those were all given for me.

It's mostly the style that interested me, and why it seemed they all aimed for the same thing. I don't buy that it's copying a cheap gimmick and hope to make money, I'm fairly sure most indies barely break even if they're lucky, so in these conditions, vanity and personal interest trumps the drive for profit by a long shot.

But now I think I'm 100% certain of where this whimsical in your face style all comes from: Flash and its vector graphics, and sites like Newgrounds where shocking games with fratboy/shocking humor become viral hits. It simply cannot be any other way.

 

[Trash]

That's a rubbish argument which purely stems from your own convictions and has little to do with reality. Do reread Blobert and Fizz their posts for a viewpoint on artistical values not coming from 'the world dies in flames through decadence sodomite heathen'.

 

[Wunderpurps]

I have to say that for myself, talking about the quality of indie games versus more commercial games wasn't what was attempting to do, although I was fairly sure that the topic would ultimately end up veering in that direction. All those things like most indie games being bad and there existing some gems, those were all given for me..

Aside from the obvious fact you said most, for would be elitists it's hard to believe how many people on the Codex can't figure out basic English. Or maybe a knee jerk reaction accusing you of calling all indie games shit is just more fun for them (though it's not far from the truth).

But now I think I'm 100% certain of where this whimsical in your face style all comes from: Flash and its vector graphics, and sites like Newgrounds where shocking games with fratboy/shocking humor become viral hits. It simply cannot be any other way.

Flash lends to a certain unfortunate look and it's a hundred times easier to make toon or artsy shit and pass it off as style than to make something resembling reality.

 

[Wunderpurps]

I love gay anime and web comic styled shit and anyone who disagrees is just a fascist