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Which strategy/tactical game do you think has the best AI?

felicity

Scholar
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
339
Is there any? I know many games are difficult, but they are difficult not because the AI is clever, but either because i) it’s scripted, like a lot of wargames; ii) AI has numerical advantage, i.e. most games. What I’m looking for is an AI that can beat a player who is already familiar with the basic game mechanics, one on one, no cheating, bias, scripts or places artificial restrictions on player. In most tactical and strategy games, the AI simply throws suicide squads at player. The AI isn't capable of foreseeing and predicting situations. No concept of keeping reserves, bad moves and wasted moves all the time. Even in JA2 and UFO, the AI's have the absolute numerical advantage over player yet it can't produce a coherent attack plan.

Only a few games I know have AI come close to being 'competent'. One of my favorite, the Japanese tactical game Vantage Master (VM) has an AI that is pretty good at predicting moves and conducting cooperative moves. VM's AI beat me fair and square. Granted I was inexperience, still it’s impressive since in many other games if I have the basics down, it's rare for the AI to beat me one on one without cheat or numerical advantage. In VM’s expert mode where AI gets some terrain advantage, but otherwise receives no benefits exclusive to player, the game gets really challenging. VM’s AI is unique in this aspect that I have never found in other games. I’m going to use my VM experience to explain what I consider a good AI.

  • Prediction: able to 'think' ahead of the current events. Example, I used my griffin to attack the rear of an AI unit, AI responded by summoning a new unit. I was not bothered by this move because I knew my griffin is not going to be killed by one hit, but to my surprised, that summoned unit moved two times before my griffin could act again due to the long cool down of my griffin's previous action. The AI predicted correctly - his newly summon unit could move two times before my griffin could act.
  • Adaptive: able to response to map features, player's moves, able to produce counter strategy. Example, VM's AI focus on summoning flying unit when it plans to assault a high ground, and when it's controlling the high ground, it summons more archery units. Summon fast units if it's a big map. Always try to summon units that counter player’s units. There is one map where I sieved the high ground, where AI controlled the more ‘fertile’ low ground. I had many archers but AI was able to hide behind some pillar objects to avoid being targeted most of the time.
  • Analytic: able to determine the best move; recognize threats priority, concept of time and battle line, exploits player's weakness. VM's AI is pretty good in this regard, it doesn't attack relentlessly, always try to keep its master out of harm’s way. It only attacks if the odd is favorable or at least fair else it would order its units to stay put or retreat, when it attacks, you can see that the AI takes calculated risk rather than beating around the bush and hope it has killed something in the process.
  • Organize: capable of treating units as an organic group, conducting cooperative moves, maintaining battle line, able to access situations strategically. VM’s AI knows how to use other units to block line of sight to prevent range attack, using zone of control to protect vulnerable units; using unit as bait to lure powerful foe and then isolate it. It keeps reserve forces and always try to keep units within support range of each other.
  • Inventive: capable of utilizing its arsenals to their full capacity. A good indicator of this characteristic is being able to utilize different means to achieve objective other than direct assault. VM’s AI utilizes ZoC(zone of control) to block movement, not just defensively, but also aggressively (block the path so enemies cannot reinforce or retreat). It can use crowd control magic with some efficiency. In some rare occasions, it is capable of surprising player by using subtle magic like uptide/downtide, i.e. spells that radically changes the waterlevel, thus the landscape of the battlefield. I have had my fire unit trapped in water and drowned to death, or water unit dried on land by AI casting this spell. In VMJ, a sequel to VM, the AI utilizes the Charm spell very efficiently (Charm is a spell that causes an enemy unit to turn over temporary). It also knows how to counter player’s Charm spell. It’s interesting that I have found instead of using my Charm spell aggressively, it’s better to keep it in reserve. The reason is similar to nuclear bomb. If I haven’t used it up, the AI has to worry about the spell and be more cautious, it keeps the AI on guard.

These are the characteristics of what I call a good AI. Do you know any games with an AI that is capable of similar pattern of behaviors? (Chess don’t count)
 

felicity

Scholar
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
339
tl;dr

In brief, I’m looking for strategy/tactical games (except chess) with good AI, good by comparison to Vantage Master. It has to be capable of beating human player one on one, on fair conditions, which means no cheat, no huge reserve of units and cannon fodders that player do not have.
 

Hory

Erudite
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Messages
3,002
None, that's why I don't play RTS in singleplayer.
 

Malakal

Arcane
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RTS almost always have inferior AIs to turn based strategy games, obviously. But even among turn based finding a competent AI is quite hard.

That having said I think that M.A.X. had quite a good AI.
 

a budda

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
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CivilisationIV:BtS was pretty impressive for an AI, but other than that can't think of any. Competititive AI, bah, sounds like a joke :shock:
 

felicity

Scholar
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Dec 16, 2008
Messages
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Blackadder said:
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/313/details/Conquest.of.the.Aegean

Probably doesn't fit your criteria being a historic WWII wargame, but you didn't specify otherwise.

Apart from that, perhaps you should try Fantasy General. That may be more to your liking. Warlords 2 and 3 have quite good AI's as well. Most other fantasy strat games are on the easy side.

Doesn’t have to be historic.

I haven't played Conquest of the Aegean. Campaign scale isn’t my cup of tea. I heard it has a robust AI, I’m skeptical though. I haven’t seen an AI that can handle real time system.

I like Fantasy General, but the AI is still far from what I would call good. AI has a great deal more troops than player. The challenge mainly comes from beating large amount of troops and keeping casualties low.

Haven't tried Warlords, I'll take a look.
 

felicity

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Dec 16, 2008
Messages
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Destroid said:
Civ AI is easy to beat unless it has a cheating advantage.

True, and there is the factor of gang banging. One on one the AI isn't that clever, it's the diplomacy system that makes them difficult.

Malakal said:
RTS almost always have inferior AIs to turn based strategy games, obviously. But even among turn based finding a competent AI is quite hard.

That having said I think that M.A.X. had quite a good AI.

Agree on RTS having inferior AI. AI seems to work better with things that are easier to quanitfy. Space and time in TBS can be translated to 3 hexes and time unit like turns or action points. In RTS things are more chaotic.

Thanks for suggesting M.A.X. It looks promising.
 

Malakal

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Yea M.A.X. is really awesome, I think we had a thread here somewhere about it. I used to play it with friend on hot seat in old days and it was loads of fun.

Battle Isle (?) is also quite good, but it might be not, my memory is fuzzy at best.

CIV AI sucks and always sucked without cheating.

Turn base has the advantage of being easy to script and allowing for complicated calculations to be made, also way less viable tactics, real time offers mainly the advantage of better 'micro' on the side of AI.
 

a budda

Arbiter
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Nov 21, 2008
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Civ4 makes use of diplomacy and goes for cultural victory (which is for suckers) and you are pretty much fu.. that's true, but that makes it a challenging game

you can't be serious demanding AI to be competitive one on one :shock: need to wait 30 more years maybe
 

Crichton

Prophet
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Jul 7, 2004
Messages
1,212
Hmm, for tactical games, Tactics Ogre has pretty nice, AI, one rarely catches it in an outright mistake and it's units support each other nicely. The sequal/remake Final Fantasy Tactics has OK AI; both GBA versions have garbage AI.

I really couldn't say about strategy games since I don't play them as much. I've heard that the Galactic Civilizations games have great AI.
 

Monocause

Arcane
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I suggest playing some good chess. If you're not into chess, well, out of luck!
 

oscar

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Panzer General AI appears pretty sharp (though this could just be scripting).
 

PorkaMorka

Arcane
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Feb 19, 2008
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5,090
Doesn't Galactic Civilizations 2 have what is widely recognized as one of the best AIs around?

Admittedly this is probably due in large part of the fact that the game's mechanics are streamlined and made extremely boring so that the computer can handle them with ease.

The game is like a spreadsheet and computers are apparently good with that kind of thing.
 

MetalCraze

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M.A.X.
It will mostly try to exploit every hole in your defence with single units instead of just rushing. Beats any other AI in turn-based strategy games I've seen (let alone RTS'es). A golden era of Interplay indeed.
 

felicity

Scholar
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Dec 16, 2008
Messages
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I will try M.A.X. Thanks for the suggestions guys. Keep them coming.

For those who don't want to read my long post. I should clarify further on what I mean by good AI. There are many games in which the AI poses significant challenge to the player, but often the AI control a much larger pool of resources than player. I'm specifically looking for games with AI that can plausibly beat a player on equal footing. For example, in Vantage Master, both sides enter the battlefield with a lonely master, and then they take turns summoning units to the battlefield. Each side can summon the same units, no level advantage, no cheat whatsoever; the only bias possible is the terrain.

And the VM's AI can beat a human player who doesn't put some effort into planning. It is still easy to beat VM's AI once players have some experience and adjust to thinking within the frame of the game. However in a map where the AI has terrain advantage, it becomes very challenging even to experienced player. You can try normal mode on VM and see how far you can progress before losing or getting stuck. The game is freeware and looks pretty and juicy with the isometric hex map, the translation is engrishy though .

There ought to be more TBS games with good AI. Playing against dumb AI in a strategy game is not fun, and it's not possible to always play against human. I don't like Gal Civ, it feels too generic. But if AI is their strong suit I wish they'd make a tactical game, small scale is where an AI can excel. Come on developers; put the AI back to our strategy games.
 
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M.A.X. standard AI rapes me often enough without the extra advantages. I'm pretty sure the highest difficulty levels are just for taunting you.
 

MetalCraze

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More additional AI strategical scripts are disabled the lower the difficulty. According to the game itself you get all scripts only at Expert level and only at two higher levels the AI has 10-25% advantage in resource gathering if you just don't get enough challenge.
 

LusciousPear

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MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Chess is a memorization game. ZZzz.

What about Advance War: Days of ... erm, something? I get my ass kicked all the time (maybe I'm just retarded), but I find myself stumbling into ambushes, etc.
 
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MetalCraze said:
M.A.X.
It will mostly try to exploit every hole in your defence with single units instead of just rushing. Beats any other AI in turn-based strategy games I've seen (let alone RTS'es). A golden era of Interplay indeed.

I had forgotten all about M.A.X. It is indeed a tough game, and made by the same guy who made the Magic Candle series.
 
Joined
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MetalCraze said:
More additional AI strategical scripts are disabled the lower the difficulty. According to the game itself you get all scripts only at Expert level and only at two higher levels the AI has 10-25% advantage in resource gathering if you just don't get enough challenge.

25/50% actually. Giving the computer a 50% advantage is pretty much just asking to be raped. I would love to see a demonstration of how to beat it.
 

felicity

Scholar
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
339
GoG selling M.A.X.1&2 for 6 bucks, very nice. And google reveals that the AI programmer of M.A.X., Gus Smedstad, was also responsible for the AI in HoMM 3 and 4. He seems to be working for Tilted Mill now.
 

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