Which games (if any) successfully managed to be mature?

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Fallout was also mature--it asks the question of "what can change the nature of a man" far better than PS:T did. When the main character can no longer return to the home he fought to save, because it was no longer home, that was a really complex and nuanced exploration of one's nature changing. Maybe it's time, or experience, or maybe the fact that the main character was chosen (which suggests destiny); whatever the case, the innocence lost can never be regained. That's pretty mature in my book.

I think that the exposition to the external world was a much more human nature changing experience than not getting allowed to get back into the Vault.
The Overseer didn't let the VD in because VD has changed, not the other way around.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

My question was whether or not any games have ever taken 'mature topics' like sex, violence, drugs, prostitution, pedophelia, etc... and depicted them in a serious fashion

Wouldn't be a game anymore then. And certainly not one I'd play.

 

[Psycroptic]

Alpha Centauri always felt like it was made for adults.

 

[Konjad]

Witcher minus sex-cards and some female models.

Really?
Even without the sex-cards, I found much of the dialogue to be juvenile and far too silly to be taken seriously.
In addition, imo, the feud between the humans and non-humans was pretty shallow and felt like a very generic tale of racism. We've seen this shit before in a million different games/films/books, and CDP gave us nothing interesting that we haven't seen before in this category. Ultimately, it was too shallow to take seriously.

Guys, but Witcher Saga never was very mature. Sure, it has "mature content" but come on, the books were a parody of fantasy with more serious storyline (which was a "serious parody" more like). The romances, some fights and most of the dialogues were supposed to be funny, not "mature", even if it had mature content. I don't know why people call Witcher mature - I doubt Sapkowski wanted to create very deep and mature story. I think it was more like "lol letz make fun of Tolkien and other that elven stuff lulz". When he started to write he just wrote several short stories and did not plan to continue this until it became very popular.

 

[bhlaab]

I disagree with Fallout. Though it pales in comparison to Fallout 2, most of the adult content is used for gags. That's part of what makes it cool, though. The 90s underground pulp comic book feeling that doesn't even pretend to want to be mature. I'd put Vampire: Bloodlines in the same boat.

Half Life, I wouldn't call it immature, but certainly no more mature than your average quasi-trashy sci fi film. System Shock 2 skews slightly more adult, but neither game would lose a significant amount of context if you played them as an incredibly ignorant child.

Planescape Torment and Deus Ex are two games I've played that fit the mature bill perfectly. I'll also give you I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, which I haven't played but it sort of has to be if it's at all similar to the source material. Silent Hill... I'll definitely give you Silent Hill 2, but I'm not so sure about the others.

Some games I'll throw onto the pile include the Marathon series, which is built around a few AI constructs playing an extended game of philosophical rock paper scissors. Also , Ico and Shadow of the Colossus. While I find Shadow in particular to be very overrated both games are definitely know their intended audience

 

[drunkpriest]

Liberal Crime Squad

 

[Serious_Business]

Witcher minus sex-cards and some female models.

Really?
Even without the sex-cards, I found much of the dialogue to be juvenile and far too silly to be taken seriously.
In addition, imo, the feud between the humans and non-humans was pretty shallow and felt like a very generic tale of racism. We've seen this shit before in a million different games/films/books, and CDP gave us nothing interesting that we haven't seen before in this category. Ultimately, it was too shallow to take seriously.

i piss on ur juvenile scorn

OH YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[Lothers]

I consider mature games to be the games that stay true to their setting, with believable, well written dialog and themes that can be fully appreciated by ... adults ? ( - define adults...) Of course this definition -as all definitions- is bullshit deep down, but whatever.


Fallout
Torment
Arcanum
Bloodlines
Deus Ex
System Shock 2
I have no mouth and I must scream
Sanitarium
Grim Fandago (yeah humor can be mature)
Shadow Of The Comet
Gabriel Knight
The Last Express
Silent Hill
Mafia
No One Lives For Ever
Thief
Half Life
Jedi Knight 2
Betrayal At Krondor
Anachronox (did I mention that humor can be mature?)


Also nudity does not define maturity or immaturity.

Enough said. Also first half of Fahrenheit and The Witcher, I don't mind sex cards, Geralt in books was one damn jebaka (a guy who fucks a lot)...

 

[MetalCraze]

Witcher minus sex-cards and some female models.

Fallout 3 minus retarded dialogues and juvenile characters

 

[Erebus]

Fallout was also mature--it asks the question of "what can change the nature of a man" far better than PS:T did. When the main character can no longer return to the home he fought to save, because it was no longer home, that was a really complex and nuanced exploration of one's nature changing.

Yeah, that's totally not a cliché ending that had already been done a thousand time before.

 

[saenz]

I don't think I ever played a mature game.

Except, perhaps, Dreamweb.

Also, in lieu of a manual, you got the "Diary of a Madman."
http://hideout.dvru.ru/Games/96/Files/dreamweb_man.pdf

Very art house, but probably the best exposition I've ever seen in a game.

 

[Panthera]

Fallout was also mature--it asks the question of "what can change the nature of a man" far better than PS:T did. When the main character can no longer return to the home he fought to save, because it was no longer home, that was a really complex and nuanced exploration of one's nature changing.

Yeah, that's totally not a cliché ending that had already been done a thousand time before.

Actually, it was a pretty clever subversion of the monomyth.

 

[Annie Mitsoda]

It seems like there's some cross purposes here - the common goal of "ACTUALLY mature instead of just OMG BLOOD AND BEWBZ" is pretty well represented in everything that's been mentioned so far. The split in this thread seems to be:

* "this feels like it's made for a more intelligent audience and handles certain 'mature' topics in a non-childish way"
VS
* "this not only feels like it handles 'mature' topics well but strives to make an artistic and thematic point about them."

I think the latter is in shorter supply than the former (and BOTH of them are sadly rare), but I don't think that making a thematic point (or trying to) within a game automatically makes it entirely devoid of fun.

What kills the fun in deliberately "thematic" games (mature or not) is 1) forgetting that the player should be able to have some sort of control (unless the POINT of the game is to make the player feel that despite all they do, they're powerless - which is a damn tricky thing to do well) and 2) that they should avoid being really, really preachy. Hell, even Metal Gear Solid tried to take on nuclear war, but god DAMN it was preachy as fuck about it. On the other hand, you have Defcon, which superbly illustrates the illusion of control (essential to the point but at the same time not sacrificing the fundamental notion of gameplay) while still guiding the player to that firsthand chilling conclusion of Holy Shit Nuclear War is Fucking Terrifying and Would Kill Us All. Same point as MGS, but made an a FAR more capable way.

(So plz add Defcon to that list, btw.)

 

[Paula Tormeson IV]

The Void has female nudity (and male too, actually, but it's not very pretty to look at and it's transparent) out the wazoo. Doesn't stop it from being mature: much of the nudity is actually tasteful and not even that erotic, unless you've got a swing-set fetish.

How little you know.

A female, just standing there in a natural position, doesn't have to be naked, could be wearing a skirt, could still be more erotic than anything you can think of. Naked is less erotic than skirts, because skirts symbolize femininity. The reason skirts went out of fashion is that the snakes who create fashions hate women.

 

[Paula Tormeson IV]

It seems like there's some cross purposes here - the common goal of "ACTUALLY mature instead of just OMG BLOOD AND BEWBZ" is pretty well represented in everything that's been mentioned so far. The split in this thread seems to be:

* "this feels like it's made for a more intelligent audience and handles certain 'mature' topics in a non-childish way"
VS
* "this not only feels like it handles 'mature' topics well but strives to make an artistic and thematic point about them."

I think the latter is in shorter supply than the former (and BOTH of them are sadly rare), but I don't think that making a thematic point (or trying to) within a game automatically makes it entirely devoid of fun.

What kills the fun in deliberately "thematic" games (mature or not) is 1) forgetting that the player should be able to have some sort of control (unless the POINT of the game is to make the player feel that despite all they do, they're powerless - which is a damn tricky thing to do well) and 2) that they should avoid being really, really preachy. Hell, even Metal Gear Solid tried to take on nuclear war, but god DAMN it was preachy as fuck about it. On the other hand, you have Defcon, which superbly illustrates the illusion of control (essential to the point but at the same time not sacrificing the fundamental notion of gameplay) while still guiding the player to that firsthand chilling conclusion of Holy Shit Nuclear War is Fucking Terrifying and Would Kill Us All. Same point as MGS, but made an a FAR more capable way.

(So plz add Defcon to that list, btw.)

The problem isn't games; it's the people who play them. If you have a brain, you won't need anyone to tell you what to think about a subject. Dark Omen was a brilliant game because it didn't have an ax to grind, but it taught the player the profound truth that prevailing against evil is very challenging and difficult.

 

[Zomg]

I think all games might be fundamentally immature by nature. Most aspects of maturity are variations on learned helplessness and compromise to which games and gameplay are antithetical.

 

[MasPingon]

Witcher minus sex-cards and some female models.

Really?
Even without the sex-cards, I found much of the dialogue to be juvenile and far too silly to be taken seriously.
In addition, imo, the feud between the humans and non-humans was pretty shallow and felt like a very generic tale of racism. We've seen this shit before in a million different games/films/books, and CDP gave us nothing interesting that we haven't seen before in this category. Ultimately, it was too shallow to take seriously.

Guys, but Witcher Saga never was very mature. Sure, it has "mature content" but come on, the books were a parody of fantasy with more serious storyline (which was a "serious parody" more like). The romances, some fights and most of the dialogues were supposed to be funny, not "mature", even if it had mature content. I don't know why people call Witcher mature - I doubt Sapkowski wanted to create very deep and mature story. I think it was more like "lol letz make fun of Tolkien and other that elven stuff lulz". When he started to write he just wrote several short stories and did not plan to continue this until it became very popular.

Sorry, but that was stupid

 

[TNO]

GTFO nomask. Grown-ups are talking.

I think 'darkness' and 'maturity' when talking about games or whatever must involve themes you don't want children to think about: bigotry, sex and sexual abuse, violence, torture, and things like that. This doesn't mean that to be worthy for adult consumption a work must address something horrific (Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy doesn't involve an extensive meditation on any of these, but it really is worthy for adult consumption) but something that does is exclusively for 'adults'.

Most games fail horribly at actually being 'mature'. They point to issues that their inclusion dignifies them as 'grown up', but their treatment is nearly uniformly infantile and insipid. They perpetuate what amounts to childish fantasies about these things, which aren't only artistically bankrupt but morally odious. Finally, they treat their audience as children by preaching to them, tugging at their heartstrings or merely reaffirming the stereotype du jour.

Most games are a bit childish of necessity: ideas of heroes gaining power and killing thousands of obviously bad people who deserve it and saving the world are commonplace (and when's the last time anyone got PTSR from killing hundreds and hundreds of people?) But the other side of the gameplay:story divide needn't be by either having a good writer or having a poor writer realising he would be out of his depth if they did something like making one of his heroines a victim of child sexual abuse without it turning into some shitty angsty emofest to convince the player she's some dewinged angel who suffered more than you could possibly understand but you can heal her through a few work-a-day consolations and you get to kiss her in the denouement. Fat chance, eh?

 

[Paula Tormeson IV]

TNO = copy paste monster parrot bird THEREFORE always wrong about everything.

Monkey.

You wouldn't know what grown up means.

 

[Konjad]

Witcher minus sex-cards and some female models.

Really?
Even without the sex-cards, I found much of the dialogue to be juvenile and far too silly to be taken seriously.
In addition, imo, the feud between the humans and non-humans was pretty shallow and felt like a very generic tale of racism. We've seen this shit before in a million different games/films/books, and CDP gave us nothing interesting that we haven't seen before in this category. Ultimately, it was too shallow to take seriously.

Guys, but Witcher Saga never was very mature. Sure, it has "mature content" but come on, the books were a parody of fantasy with more serious storyline (which was a "serious parody" more like). The romances, some fights and most of the dialogues were supposed to be funny, not "mature", even if it had mature content. I don't know why people call Witcher mature - I doubt Sapkowski wanted to create very deep and mature story. I think it was more like "lol letz make fun of Tolkien and other that elven stuff lulz". When he started to write he just wrote several short stories and did not plan to continue this until it became very popular.

Sorry, but that was stupid

Sorry, but you are a retard.

 

[Elwro]

Some interactive fiction, like LASH, attempts to be mature.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Mature games must include rape.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. No, not the one where you shoot up the russian airport.

I'm dead serious.

 

[MasPingon]

Witcher minus sex-cards and some female models.

Really?
Even without the sex-cards, I found much of the dialogue to be juvenile and far too silly to be taken seriously.
In addition, imo, the feud between the humans and non-humans was pretty shallow and felt like a very generic tale of racism. We've seen this shit before in a million different games/films/books, and CDP gave us nothing interesting that we haven't seen before in this category. Ultimately, it was too shallow to take seriously.

Guys, but Witcher Saga never was very mature. Sure, it has "mature content" but come on, the books were a parody of fantasy with more serious storyline (which was a "serious parody" more like). The romances, some fights and most of the dialogues were supposed to be funny, not "mature", even if it had mature content. I don't know why people call Witcher mature - I doubt Sapkowski wanted to create very deep and mature story. I think it was more like "lol letz make fun of Tolkien and other that elven stuff lulz". When he started to write he just wrote several short stories and did not plan to continue this until it became very popular.

Sorry, but that was stupid

Sorry, but I'm a retard.

I fixed it for ya

 

[Paula Tormeson IV]

I think all games might be fundamentally immature by nature. Most aspects of maturity are variations on learned helplessness and compromise to which games and gameplay are antithetical.

If you're having it easy, you're not prevailing against evil. No joke, just the hard facts.

 

[Big Nose George]

Most aspects of maturity are variations on learned helplessness and compromise

I'd say that most perceived versions of maturity are variations of evil/bad. Evil as in not according to your morals. Violence is just the most prominent example. But you've got a whole spectrum to choose from.
Now "bad" would be something along the lines of "helplessness and compromise", the fact that life is not as you thought it is as a child. This would actually be the source of the word "maturity". You are mature if you not a child. Ages vary.
One of the most simple examples would be a child's trustfulness that gives to wariness.

There is a second part of maturity and that is thinking. Asking why till the final question. Philosophy if you will. For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Prince - basically a children's book but mature in my opinion/by my definition.
But it all this still lives and dies with presentation. That is where games actually fail.
But they are not "antithetical" to maturity.

In conclusion, Zomg, no matter how many fancy word you put in, you are wrong. =P

 

[Zomg]

I know it's a cynical angle, but whatever. "Maturity" is too ill-defined for me to write more than an ambiguous sentence about it to try to hip-check the thread. It's like "Durr are games ART???" there's literally no chance the thread will go anywhere interesting so just freestyle.