Where is the RPG in MMORPG?

[Human Shield]

What do people want out of storylines in MMORPGs? More scripted events? Releasing expansions supposesdly advances the story.

 

[Mistress]

It would be nice if I could beat the crap out of my party members though, I don't think they could possibly be more annoying...unless they were 15 year old hologrinders that is

What do you think they do on those long, long interplanetary flights?

I'm hoping Carth gets his blaster forcibly inserted somewhere fairly uncomfortable.

 

[Lyra-Stone]

You know, I've read most of this, and I can really feel your pain. Most of the MMORPG's I've played were fun for a time, until I got sick of the gameplay, and found that there was no depth beyond that. Yes, there's some RP groups here and there, but it was really hard to get immersed in, say SWG when the middle of a populated town was full of spammers looking for holo's and skill tapes and whatever else.

There have been games that go against the grain, and I think that Lyra Studios is one company that has set itself apart by going against the grain. The new title, Reclamation, is being built from the ground up for roleplaying. It's really looking promising for anyone who's been missing that aspect of MMORPG's.

I've grown up on Sci-fi and Fantasy, and roleplaying games. I really thought I'd like EQ, until it became about powergaming. Same with SWG, and I stayed in SWG for a long time compared to how quickly I leave most other games. It took much longer to get through the content that it did have to offer, but after that, I was left wanting. I really wanted SWG to remind me of my Star Wars RPG campaigns and really immerse me in the world. It didn't.

I'm still waiting for that perfect fantasy MMORPG, and it might happen, but we'll have to see. Because companies are still focused on making the next big EQ. So they follow the EQ model and it gets us the same place we were.

What game's need to promote is player interaction, less NPC's or no NPC's at all.. make a world where everyone's actions can actually have a visible effect on the world and where there are consequences for every action. A game where there is war, where there is peace, where this is politics and hunting, something for everyone to do and yet still be known to the world. Players may care more how their character is percieved if their actions get around the world and they are known, then either suffer, or are rewarded in advancement. Caring about your character may be one of the keys to roleplaying. I want to see levels and item gathering and magic, but I don't want those to be more important than personality, charisma, and action. I also don't want these to be stats, but actually how you play and talk and treat other people, those things should matter just as much as your level.

I'll let you know when I find that game.

Lyra-Stone
http://www.lyrastudios.com
http://www.underlight.com
http://www.reclamationgame.com

 

[Ceyllynn]

You can't force people to role-play. Building a game that attempted to do so would be futile."

I am afraid you are mistaken there. Underlight, while not perfect, is an essentially pure RPG. This game has been around over 6 years now and is a game where leveling requires actual tasking from peers, who have been trained in the teaching of fellow players. You must stay in character, there is no l33t speak, no talking about a football game, and only discussions about actual events IN the game. Almost every roleplay is player driven, open endings, and anyone can join in. But that is just Underlight, now the same company is making a sequel, one that is even more roleplying oriented from the lessons learned with underlight.

Lyra-Stone put up the addies for both, check it out if you crave real roleplaying and a true challenge.

 

[Sol Invictus]

The problem with MMORPGs is the fact that there exists players who don't take the game seriously. I don't mean that in a geeky fashion, though. I just mean that they fail to immerse themselves in the gaming environment and as such, have a tendency to ruin it for everyone else - much like power gamers in an RP PNP session of D&D3.5.

You have a couple of guys role-playing their characters well enough, "Yarr, I be a dwarf who drinks mead" and "I am a noble savage. I will behead you and serve drinks to my guests." when some jack-ass comes along and ruins it with "Omigod guys, I'm almost level 5! I'm so gonna multiclass to ranger so I get dual-wielding for free. OMG. Hey can someone gimme their +2 arrows?" who ruins the whole session. People like these are usually dealt with by the GM.

The problem with online games is that there aren't enough GMs to control the players most of the time, so all this talk about 'farming for gold' and 'multiclassing to a hooker at level 12' gets completely out of hand.

Before you know it, people start talking about how they're going to 'delevel' to do a certain quest, grind for several hours to gain experience and loot, or create a second account as a mule, and all of that completely breaks the immersion.

What's worse is that nothing you do in-game actually makes a damn bit of difference in the game world. It's all about levelling and getting experience or going on meaningless quests that don't change anything. Single player games are a whole lot more immersive, coming to that issue.

In a word, it doesn't feel real. These are some of the problems I'd like to see dealt with.

 

[Rosh]

Exactly, and that is my point, Rex. You do need the little things to make it seem complete. As I went from level 1-50 in DAoC, I noticed little difference in how the NPCs reacted to me unless it was part of a quest. The same goes for most other MMOGs out there.

There needs to be additions, no matter how inane they may seem in terms of game mechanics, to bring the world to life. Every game out there tastes of the same stale templated design in one way or another. The game world needs to react back to the players, in multiple ways. Vanity is a prime aspect of the game, and some do take concern in how they look and how their buildings look. If it's a world, they want to make their mark known. Most wise developers provide for some part of this in one way or another as it adds more attachment to the character, therefore bringing back the user for some time. This goes for both MUDs and MMOGs both.

If it werent for the fact that it could have a multitude of characters on the screen that would drag DAoC on any computer down to the knees, I would have long said that the features selection in Lineage II were the worst ever. UO had far more options.

As far as immersiveness, I have enjoyed Gothic and Gothic II for resembling the Ultimas in terms of world construction. It is pretty interesting, while MMOG landscape is mostly computer generated by an algorithm. Twitch.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I'll be frank and say that Lineage II has, by far, the worst selection of features, ever. It might get better in the future chronicles (Chronicles 2, 3 and onwards) but in its present state, and for the next six months (of Chronicle 1) there isn't anything to do besides grind on the same monsters day and night and occasionally participate in PVP.

 

[Aejeck]

Underlight is a game where roleplaying is enforced. It has the highest GM to player ratio of all of the MMORPG's out there today. Given these two facts, it is a fantasy world in which you can easily become immersed. Ask any of the players who have stuck around the game for over 5 years now.

It works.

 

[Golah]

Real Roleplaying Lessee,

A Community that works together to create a world where reality does not exsist, where we are not discussing last nights Baseball game or the current population of Texas.

Example-Underlight

Roleplaying, the truest form of roleplaying has zero to do with graphics, nothing to do with weapons, or 3D excelleration, its about createing, maintaining and expanding a storyline with other players, its the Pen and Paper roleplaying with some graphics and I strongly suggest trying it.

Roleplaying should make you feel like you are part of the story, when you are roleplaying you should become lost in the story and become the story, that is what real roleplaying is there are no computers no electrons, nothing but roleplaying, simply becoming the story.

It should be frustrateing because you care and you are in it, it should be fun because you are making the story as you evovle it should be a game based on what your charactor wants from it, not the person behind it.

try Underlight and enjoy it

 

[Vault Dweller]

Jesus Fucking Christ, people! Can't you all make one combined ad for Underlight or whatever it's called and not post here every day "Underlight rocks, give it a try" crap? We got it, it's cool, if someone is interested, there is a link.

 

[Lyra-Stone]

I think they're trying to get involved in the conversation and prove many points that were brought up wrong. Roleplaying -is- missing from most MMORPG's. However, they're a frustrated bunch because they've been playing one with it for years.

Roleplaying is key to what's been missing from MMORPG's.. I believe it's one of the reasons so many of us jump to every game that we can, looking for that special something that will actually hold our attention for more than a few months.

There's a lot to be said for ownership of a character's personality and traits, rather than just their items and stats. More to be said about being able to effect the world around you and be recognized for it.

Richard Garriot (Lord British) has even been quoted as saying that he would like to see more roleplaying in games. He goes on to describe that roleplaying isn't about your stats, levelling, collecting loot. It's about interactions between characters that doesn't include: "Do you have a sword of chaos slaying +600?" or "Help me get to level 100"

There's only so much content you can offer your players without providing them with a real roleplaying environment, because if you provide them with a roleplaying environment and the tools to create their own story and content, then you've found the way to keep them entertained, whether or not your level cap is 200, or you've added 60 new side quests.

-Lyra Stone
http://www.lyrastudios.com
http://www.underlight.com
http://www.reclamationgame.com

 

[Spazmo]

I agree! Role playing! MMORPGs! Hooray!

UNDERLIGHT or something

 

[Astromarine]

I fucking hate shills. Congratulations to the several people who joined JUST to say how much Underlight rocks (or to the one deluded soul who created all those accounts) You have just succeeded in making me decide to NEVER even go to your fucking webpage. And yes, I really do take commercial decisions based on how much I fucking hate the sales pitch, regardless of the quality of the product.

Fuck off with Underlight

 

[Human Shield]

I don't like the concept of underlight, everyone is in a crazy dream world lets create cool quests... Can you be a merchant or doctor or does it even matter? I want something more realistic.

 

[Golah]

Based on the Vulgar uses of some of the children here, odds are you would not meet the age requirements.

What can you be in a dream...I suppose that would depend on your ablity to use imagination, Doctor prehaps not that term Healer? yes a Healer, Merchent...Sure theres no money in underlight but theres most certainly trades.

Certain people won't make it a week in underlight, those are the people looking for quick levels and fast pvp, the ones that will make it in underlight are the ones that want more then quick levels and fast pvp, the old D&D people that played with dice and a DMthose are who will survive and love Underlight.

You can kick and scream, and further prove your intelligence by swearing, but that won't change the fact that people will still talk, you are a being on a keyboard typeing fowl words that mean ziltch to me, However if you wish I invite you to Medford Mass, where I live to speak to my face you may also bring your friends.

On a last note everyone here speaking about Underlight, Plays Underlight its not one person speaking from many accounts but a community coming together to support its game and to let others know roleplaying does exsist, you can come play or continue poping your pimples and qrping via key strokes, choice is yours, just as its mine to write whatever I please about a game, or roleplaying.

My Name is Angelo Stevens by the way feel free to look me up in Medford, show me those verbal skills face to face, audious folks.

 

[Sol Invictus]

A society without currency is a primitive, unprogressive one.

 

[Vault Dweller]

My Name is Angelo Stevens by the way feel free to look me up in Medford, show me those verbal skills face to face, audious folks.

Not another "tough guy"! Did somebody say something to your personally? Are you smart enough to realize that all you guys are doing is making a multi-post ad here which is annoying?

 

[Psilon]

Not only that, they're advertising through astroturfing. If they were really interested in "getting involved in the conversation," they'd have left this thread to bash the Fallout fans or make fun of Sacred/ToEE/Dragon Age by now. Maybe get into a pissing match with Major or Llama. You know, the usual stuff.

Instead, we get the painfully transparent advertising of unpaid shills. Consider Astro's statements seconded.

 

[Anonymous]

Underlight sounds incredibly stupid, all it's 'high points' are mostly things that already are in MMORPGs, just reworded to make a pitch.

 

[Elwro]

This whole Underlight sounds, judging by the posts of those guys, way too elitist for me. I'll stick to RPGCodex here.

BTW I won't ever play a MMORPG that isn't free.

 

[DamnElfGirl]

I've looked at Underlight before. I think I may have even tried the free trial once, though the experience obviously wasn't very memorable. Perhaps once a person gets into it, the game and it's community are wonderful. I just couldn't get past the amateurish look and presentation of the thing. The game utterly failed to convince me to even consider paying monthly.

Interesting that Elwro should mention elitism... that's a big issue with me in on-line games. The only MMORPG I've played for very long was DAOC, because I met a great and welcoming group of people in that game. I've failed to find a good guild or community in every game I've tried since. It seems like the MMORPG community has clumped into guilds and cliques that travel together from game to game. People have found their friends, and guard against the idjits by speaking to nobody outside their guild. Attempts to group or join with these guilds feel like infiltrating the wrong social group in high school. Everygody will gush to you about how great the guild is, but they don't really want to talk to you or involve you in their community. And role-play has long gone out the window, even in so-called role-playing guilds.

(Note to game fanpersons who might be thinking of spamming this forum with glowing reports of how great their game/guild is and how I should try it: please don't. It annoys the locals, and I'm not in the market right now.)

 

[Human Shield]

Interesting that Elwro should mention elitism... that's a big issue with me in on-line games. The only MMORPG I've played for very long was DAOC, because I met a great and welcoming group of people in that game. I've failed to find a good guild or community in every game I've tried since. It seems like the MMORPG community has clumped into guilds and cliques that travel together from game to game. People have found their friends, and guard against the idjits by speaking to nobody outside their guild. Attempts to group or join with these guilds feel like infiltrating the wrong social group in high school. Everygody will gush to you about how great the guild is, but they don't really want to talk to you or involve you in their community. And role-play has long gone out the window, even in so-called role-playing guilds.

That is what I hate. If you join the game late newbies are left to grind by themselves. Disabling chat functions by everyone in a guild, you become a random background graphic unable to effect them. That is what "role-playing"' becomes, a bunch of elitist groups with mostly cliche characters plugging their ears and complaining about other ways to play the game.

Shrew the grind. If I have to kill static monsters to do anything meaningful in the game then count me out, I want to start averagely skilled and able to help. In single player games you stay competitive to the rest of the world throughout the game (same in PnP), but in designing MMOGs they felt the need to let people become insanely powerful so new players are useless compared to them. And the game feels fine about throwing random crazed NPC bandits at players but if a player wants to randomly attack people it becomes unbalanced... Why not balance the characters from the start and make the game more interesting.

I'd like a system where players are placed in a town according to their class and the town's needs, so players deal with other people.

I don't want a graphic roleplaying chat room, I don't want a dream world where anything can happen and therefore nothing important can, I don't want meaningless chores, I don't want the gameworld to shrug me off.

I want to start a new character and get a caravan escort mission within 30 minutes, protect a player merchant fighting player raiders. And be a good challenge to even attempted power-gamer raiders. Get money reward out of the player merchant's pockets and increase reputation for successful mission. No monsters, no NPCs, no meaningless grind, no wasting time chatting up "roleplaying". I am talking to the other player guards about what to do during the game and that is the best roleplaying. Crazy murders are welcome to attack because they can be defeated.

 

[Country_Gravy]

Have you guys heard of a game called Underlight? I hear that is sucks. I would not recommend even trying it out. The people that play it don't even level up or anything. I mean, how can you have and RPG with no leveling. I want to kill some rats, damn it!

 

[suibhne]

My Name is Angelo Stevens by the way feel free to look me up in Medford, show me those verbal skills face to face, audious folks.

Do you think he meant "audacious"? Perhaps "odious"? Or maybe it's a new word altogether, some kind of arcane dream-speak.

Roleplaying is key to what's been missing from MMORPG's.. I believe it's one of the reasons so many of us jump to every game that we can, looking for that special something that will actually hold our attention for more than a few months.

See, that's where you lost me. I don't want to be involved with any computer game "for more than a few months" of my mortal life, any more than I want to pick up a book which will never end. I want a story-based world where I can get in, do the job, have a blast, and get out within the space of a few weeks, then maybe try it again with another character - or play the next module or the sequel. You'll probably respond that Underlight has narrative cohesion, that its world is evolving and the overall context is so rich that it offers many opportunities for deep storylines, but the notion of a life-substitute designed to accept literally years of my mortality is, well, a little horrifying.

Obviously, not everyone feels the same way.

Back to the subject of story. Maybe this is the most significant problem with MMORPGs (excepting Underlight, of course): stat-levelling is so ubiquitous, and narrative so threadbare, that the grind inevitably becomes a meta-narrative trumping all other creative content. The grind, in fact, becomes the primary way for a character to measure his/her impact on the world, and in that sense totally supplants any other narrative (or even possibility of one).

If you think about it, it's rather like real life - in which consumption has supplanted political power as the dominant measure of the individual. :D

 

[Vault Dweller]

Maybe it's Spanish. Like: My name is Zorro, err, I mean Angelo, seek me up at the city of Medford, adios amigos!?