1eyedking What's wrong with min-maxing?

[Modron]

So when people say "min-maxing", they really mean "playing with walkthroughs"?

Should have just said that, no objections here.

No, see the underrail thread for a den of min maxers.

If there is only one clear way to spend points / talents / perks / skills, that is best, then there is no real choice.

Yes there is a choice, no need to go full Sawyer and nerf the fun out of things because some players have no self restraint.

 

[Tweed]

Yes there is a choice, no need to go full Sawyer and nerf the fun out of things because some players have no self restraint.

Exactly. Pillars of Eternity is what happens when people try to "fix" the min max problem. You don't fix anything, you just get muscle wizards and a whole bunch of useless spells/abilities.

 

[mediocrepoet]

All this just sum up to being a sad person who doesn't enjoy to DISCOVER a game by playing it, making mistakes, good and bad choices and deal with them, like in normal games. You're playing it through an Excel Sheet.

There are a few of them around here. Asking advice to plan the most epicest of dudebros before even booting the game. Why even buy a game at that point? Just watch a bit on a stream and write down your build plan while jerking it to your imagined greatness.

Just two weeks ago I was considering putting you on the 'ignore' list, and now here we are, in agreement.

If someone had told me, I would never have believed it.

It's the pendulum of the Codex and why I periodically reset my ignore list to empty and see how it goes.

 

[rojay]

All this just sum up to being a sad person who doesn't enjoy to DISCOVER a game by playing it, making mistakes, good and bad choices and deal with them, like in normal games. You're playing it through an Excel Sheet.

There are a few of them around here. Asking advice to plan the most epicest of dudebros before even booting the game. Why even buy a game at that point? Just watch a bit on a stream and write down your build plan while jerking it to your imagined greatness.

Just two weeks ago I was considering putting you on the 'ignore' list, and now here we are, in agreement.

If someone had told me, I would never have believed it.

It's the pendulum of the Codex and why I periodically reset my ignore list to empty and see how it goes.

"What's that baby? A banana in my pocket? No, that's my ignore list. Yeah, it sure is pretty fucking big. Bet you never seen one bigger."

I'm not saying I get laid because I have a big ignore list because correlation is not causation but...

 

[Grampy_Bone]

People who complain about min/maxing are bad at RPGs. They don't want to try to figure out optimal builds, they want the game to be winnable no matter what, even with their shitty LARP build.

 

[Lhynn]

If you're not roleplaying in an RPG, you're doing something wrong.

I think that games that are designed around min/maxing are usually ass in terms of gameplay. Especially when the ruleset is a spreadsheet build abomination like 3E or Pathfinder. Ultimately, the "gameplay" ends up with you looking up some broken build online and using that. And if you don't, you either math it out yourself (what fun) or just suck at the game because the dev designed it for the worst kind of player.

5e has gay builds like Sorcadin (Sorcerer/Paladin) that abandon roleplaying for big numbers. This is the death of the genre if it's allowed to continue.

This shit started in 3E and has always driven me nuts. It even infected the tabletop scene and was shitty because it caused discussions like: Alright, look, you can take those classes if you can explain the character concept to me in how this goes together and it's not a complete asspull.

The main issue with 3E wasnt the multiclassing, was that the superior option was always go with a pure caster. wizard 1-20, druid 1-20, cleric 1-20.
So you kinda had to allow any retarded bullshit anyone else wanted to do, because "balance" was not an excuse, as the strongest "thing" was just playing a caster with no real build beyond good spell selection.

I swear that fucking system was made by the biggest asshole ever.

 

[Velut]

Why many people here think like min-maxers go full autist from the start? Usually you play the game a few times the same way most people do, get your fun and understand the system and what will you face. Only then you will try to go full autist with wierd optimized build. Which is it's own kind of fun, it's interesting to learn how far you can exploit the game's systems, what combinations could be the most beneficial, e.t.c..

 

[Poseidon00]

I don't see anything wrong with min-maxing because it's definitely a strategy you can take in life and war. It's not totally absurd

 

[Ash]

It's short for minimizing weaknesses, maximizing strengths. Otherwise known as playing intelligently and employing strategy. Otherwise known as playing the actual damn game.
Only larpers, storyfaggots and fools use the term disparagingly. However there are some disclaimers, such as excessive amounts of grinding. Technically that is min-maxing, but it is also being an autist. Ideally the game design just wouldn't allow or encourage degen gameplay in the first place though, and would also be challenging enough to demand any strategy at all.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Is playing a game a second time cheating?

 

[ropetight]

Minmaxing is not cheating - if RPG system in the game lets you have effective fighter with 20 strength and 3 constitution, then by all means rip the new one to the game.
If the game lets you get away with such exploits, it is not much of the game - at least for me.

Good games and systems will draw consequences for your choices, for example making your 3 constitution fighter sickly and prone to get poisoned.
So your mighty figher turns into little bitch running and hiding behind covers every time there is a snake or enemy with rusty blade in the vincinity.
And the second chapter is happening in some kind of the marsh where every living thing is venomous...
That actually sounds like fun roleplaying.

 

[King Crispy]

I think you're missing the point, ropetight. Your example of a fighter with 20 Strength and 3 Constitution shouldn't even be possible, that is at least to be an adventurer. While technically possible in the rules, such a being would be monstrously muscled, but so ill of body as to not be able to get out of bed and support his own weight. Any RPG that would allow such a character to enter its game world is internally inconsistent. No competent DM would allow it, either, because that character would be a waste of everyone's time.

If a computer RPG allows such a character, especially to somehow be able to succeed despite the apparent lack of logic of its existence, then that character's player is min/maxing and thus, in a sense, "cheating".

Final thought, however: I don't think those who accept min/maxing will ever agree with those who dislike it. The two sides are far too dug in.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Yes there is a choice, no need to go full Sawyer and nerf the fun out of things because some players have no self restraint.

Exactly. Pillars of Eternity is what happens when people try to "fix" the min max problem. You don't fix anything, you just get muscle wizards and a whole bunch of useless spells/abilities.

Well, maybe there is a way to "fix" the problem and Pillars failed because it was just shit at it.

I can see a system where intellect on a fighter could be beneficial to that character, but the idea you need to make Einstein Conan because higher intellect makes them rage longer is just retarded. In 3E there were already some fighting perks that had an intelligence requirement maybe you can just take it further that way, who knows. Just because Pillars failed doesn't mean there may be no good way to solve this issue.

One problem with "balance" is that in real life it can actually happen some people are gifted in more than one way. Being super strong and super smart are both rare enough on their own that it's very unlikely to find both traits on the same individual, but doesn't mean it is outright impossible. Should a game allow for that possibility? When D&D switched to a point/buy system this element of "randomness" was lost. Baldur's Gate was of course easy to cheese just by rolling ad infinitum until you got an impossibly high stat distribution but in a way i sort of miss that degree of uncertainty. So much so in fact i always preferred if the Baldur's Gate would force you to stick to the rolls for the stats, and maybe only have a minor point/buy adjustement after (or allow for the possibility to reroll on a primary stat like in table top).

 

[ropetight]

I think you're missing the point, ropetight. Your example of a fighter with 20 Strength and 3 Constitution shouldn't even be possible, that is at least to be an adventurer. While technically possible in the rules, such a being would be monstrously muscled, but so ill of body as to not be able to get out of bed and support his own weight. Any RPG that would allow such a character to enter its game world is internally inconsistent. No competent DM would allow it, either, because that character would be a waste of everyone's time.

If a computer RPG allows such a character, especially to somehow be able to succeed despite the apparent lack of logic of its existence, then that character's player is min/maxing and thus, in a sense, "cheating".

Final thought, however: I don't think those who accept min/maxing will ever agree with those who dislike it. The two sides are far too dug in.

3 constitution was a hyperbole, but people will do it if there is no penalty for that.
My point was that system or DM has to make consequence of attempting such unrealistic build.
This makes system and world better and more believable - but please no magic wheelchairs.

 

[Nano]

Valerie in Pathfinder: Kingmaker has 15 CHA, despite being a Fighter, because she's meant to be supernaturally beautiful. Cool.

Would be cool if she wasn't ugly.

 

[Falksi]

Here's the thing. Traditionally, it was the standard to run a first play "naturally" - so go for what feels right, and evolve your player based on what you connect with and what appeals to you at that time - then look to min-max on later playthroughs. You play the game, then you master the game.

Where min-maxing has become cucked is with modern gamers aiming to do this on their first playthrough with the use of guides and suchlike. It's such a fucking gay, weak way to play as it kills all the sense of discovery.

Min-maxing has it's place, but it's definitely become too common to play that way on a first playthrough. Some faggots literally can't play a game now without Googling a min-max guide before they've even killed their first opponent.

 

[Reinhardt]

what is this "min-maxing" thing? if i always play martials and max str, dex and con - is that min-maxing or just not being retarded?

 

[Lyric Suite]

Min/maxing has become ingrained because of the prevalence of computer games, but specifically Diablo-likes or MMOs.

In those games, you HAVE to min/max and theorycraft the shit out of everything. It's not actually optional if you plan to have a good time in the end game.

In single player, story driven games, there's no point to min/max even at the highest difficulty settings, unless you are doing an iron man, or something like Heart of Fury with a level one party. Sure, a bit of planning isn't a bad idea if you are playing on insane, mostly to avoid getting into a situation where you have to save scum and cheese the RNG to get past tough battles, but other than that i don't see the point.

 

[laclongquan]

Minmaxing is tightening the variety of builds.

Take BG series for example. Without minmax you can reroll for best builds and they still have some variety in unnecessary stat (while major stats are maxed). With minmaxing, all the necessary stat are max and all the unnecessary are min. Most builds look the same way~

 

[Roguey]

Minmaxers tend to be the ones who complain about RPGs being too easy and that leads to campaigns tuned like Knights of the Chalice 2.

 

[luj1]

Here's the thing. Traditionally, it was the standard to run a first play "naturally" - so go for what feels right and evolve your player based on what you connect with and what appeals to you at that time - then look to min-max on later playthroughs. You play the game, then you master the game.

Where min-maxing has become cucked is with modern gamers aiming to do this on their first playthrough with the use of guides and suchlike. It's such a fucking gay, weak way to play as it kills all the sense of discovery.

Min-maxing has it's place, but it's definitely become too common to play that way on a first playthrough. Some faggots literally can't play a game now without Googling a min-max guide before they've even killed their first opponent.

You are talking about two things, metagaming and min-maxing

Metagaming kills the fun, min-maxing *is* the fun

 

[Hydro]

It’s just not fun and retarded. An essentially capitalistic approach to having fun when you need to extort every possibility to obtain some miserable benefit.

Best RPG systems are those that allow for unpredictability and that abstract to a certain extent character creation allowing for non-linear progression and more improv.

 

[luj1]

NOOO! You can't be a strong hero in a fantasy setting!

This is all from post-modernism, it is a virus

 

[Xzylvador]

My pathfinder TTrpg group has one min-max excel-sheet player and three players who have shitty flavor builds. It's still a lot of fun for all the players, even if one player completely outshines the others in combat.
It helps if players aren't jerks and itt I'm feeling that a lot of people think all min-maxers are automatically no-fun-allowed assholes to others.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I don't mind games that allow min-maxing. That's not a problem. Nearly every system will have exploits and balance problems which will result in min-maxing.

What annoys me are games that know min-max players exist and design their games specifically for min-max players, meaning that's the only way to win the game. For some reason, some developers think that's "hardcore". There is no "git gud" when all you have to do is look up character builds and just do that.