What's the Planescape Torment/Shadowrun Dragonfall of JRPGs?

[Elthosian]

Speak not of that. It's not a comic book panel narrative style. The only relation is the speech bubbles and font look like that of a comic book. That's it. There's no individual frames/borders per couple of lines of text, no lame exaggerated text to describe actions ("CLAAANNK"), none of the ugly visual effects typically seen in comics or the video games that emulate them. It is largely just a story told like a classic movie, with a camera focused on people talking, with some nice music on top. Occasionally an interesting camera angle or standard fade/zoom shot or whatever. No added bs effects and definitely no comic stylization bullshit for dweebs.
The speech bubble is literally the only connection, and it's not a bad choice when text is necessary (no voice acting budget) & black text on white background is king for readability.

Now as for the story itself...I only ever got like 70% of the way through the game but at no point was ever blown away, just impressed by the maturity, tastefulness and restraint of it, but ultimately it was a little boring and unnecessarily cryptic.
Probably the only game I am a fan of but never actually completed. Yeah I can't truly judge but...odd pick.

Matsuno and co. play on a completely different level compared to other JRPG devs, it was mentioned earlier that his TRPGs dabble too much into the "political intrigue turns into god-killing quest" but even that is handled much better than in pretty much any other game except maybe the first half of Fire Emblem 4.

It says a lot that the only redeeming attributes of the popamole shitfest called FFXVI are there because Yoshi-P grew up playing his games.

 

[DeLastOne]

I still think the best I have ever played was Phantasy Stars on my SEGA Megadrive. The 3rd and 4th. My preference still go for the 3rd though, with the multi-generation gameplay

 

[Anonymous Ranger]

Maybe it’s because I played it when I was young but FF6 is one of the few games where I actually remember being blown away by the story. The start of the second half of the game with Celes is a moment unmatched in just about any game I’ve played.

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

No such thing. I'm convinced the Japanese can't accomplish exceptional, and very often even good writing. Therefore play their games for the god-tier art, music, atmosphere and many other things, but definitely not for writing.

How is the writting in Japanese though? it could be a translation problem, they hire low skilled translators to do a dry 100% accurate translation, without making changes for english. Actual respectable fiction novels don't do just a meaning focused translation, they have to make the prose at least sound literary.

By writting i mean prose of course, not about character writting or lore. Anyway, some people hate it but i would rather take the faux shakespearean prose of FFT PSP than the dry boring shit we usually get in JRPGs. Same goes for others Matsuno games: Vagrant Story, FFXII, Tactics Ogre PSP and GBA, they're at the top, when it comes to writting in JRPGs.

There is a lot of JRPGs with great plot and characters that could be compared to Planescape. Xenogears would be my pick, maybe Xenosaga(never played it but heard it's great story), Trails in the Sky series if you like a lot of dialogue. But the problem with JRPGs is not the story, characters or lore, but the prose! no JRPG prose ever comes close to a Planescape or Disco Elysium or a Mask of Betrayer. The prose in JRPGs just sounds soulless, almost like it came directly from google translator, the characters dialogue does not sound believable in these games. But again it's a problem with translators making dry accurate translations.

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

planet escape tournament is an jrpg. you answered your question right in the title.

You know what's funny, when i first heard about Planescape Torment, i unironically misread it as Planetescape, i saw some low resolution screenshots of the game and i did not understand it was a fantasy DnD game, looked more like a desert Tatooine-ish looking setting Sci-Fi game. So i thought the story would be something like: you're pilot of a small space ship and for some reason you crash on an mysterious backwards alien planet, life in that planet is very miserable and rough, with its own low tech civilizations/factions in conflict and lots of dangerous wild life.. so you have to find a way to escape the planet and go back home. Often ships crash on that planet for some reason, so the inhabitants scavenger the tech that survives from the fallen ships, so the setting would be more like a mix of medieval and Sci Fi, and for that same reason it would be very much possible to build a ship or other means to escape the planet.

Planescape is nothing about that of course, but it could be a good story premise for a game.

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

Retro, Phantasy Star 4 and FF6.

The Phantasy Star series is the closet to western PC gaming in that it doesn't treat it's players like morons, and gives the world a very grounded feel...

It feels like it's written for young adults and not kids, unlike stuff like Chrono Trigger...

I disagree there, in PS4 the story starts interesting and grounded, even giving me some Fallout 1 vibes with all the cult stuff, but after the first planet it all went downhill hard, so much that i still have no idea wtf the story was all about, but from the little i still remember is that there is a typical Chosen One and the go kill the Great Evil tropes towards the end. The Final Boss is just a fucking lame monster trying to destroy the world, no different than the Dragon Quest Demon Kings, want something more generic than this?

Chrono Trigger have better story than Phantasy Star IV imo, does not say much though, again i barely remember anything post Motavia in PS4, but at least Lavos had a lot of build up before the showdown, so it feels less lame than fighting a random fucking monster.

 

[PapaPetro]

FF Tactics
Very Machiavellian/Nietzschean

Like PS:T, wasn't super popular when it came out but eventually everyone quickly figured out it was solid gold.

 

[Endemic]

Nothing wrong with the hero's journey if it's executed properly; most stories are really just a few archetypical tales told in different ways.

Louis_Cypher brought up Tolkien's LOTR in another related thread, that's essentially well-worn myths with a literary presentation.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Maybe it’s because I played it when I was young but FF6 is one of the few games where I actually remember being blown away by the story. The start of the second half of the game with Celes is a moment unmatched in just about any game I’ve played.

 

[Falksi]

Retro, Phantasy Star 4 and FF6.

The Phantasy Star series is the closet to western PC gaming in that it doesn't treat it's players like morons, and gives the world a very grounded feel...

It feels like it's written for young adults and not kids, unlike stuff like Chrono Trigger...

I disagree there, in PS4 the story starts interesting and grounded, even giving me some Fallout 1 vibes with all the cult stuff, but after the first planet it all went downhill hard, so much that i still have no idea wtf the story was all about, but from the little i still remember is that there is a typical Chosen One and the go kill the Great Evil tropes towards the end. The Final Boss is just a fucking lame monster trying to destroy the world, no different than the Dragon Quest Demon Kings, want something more generic than this?

Chrono Trigger have better story than Phantasy Star IV imo, does not say much though, again i barely remember anything post Motavia in PS4, but at least Lavos had a lot of build up before the showdown, so it feels less lame than fighting a random fucking monster.

You need to remember that the ending pf PS4 is the conclusion to the entire saga though. The story of that great evil has already been built up in earlier games as a manipulative force behind various events. It's the happy ending we got in ROTJ because the other games has already laid the foundations for it. They really couldn't have done it any other way tbh, especially as the dark endings more open to interpretation had already been done.

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

You need to remember that the ending pf PS4 is the conclusion to the entire saga though. The story of that great evil has already been built up in earlier games as a manipulative force behind various events. It's the happy ending we got in ROTJ because the other games has already laid the foundations for it. They really couldn't have done it any other way tbh, especially as the dark endings more open to interpretation had already been done.

That makes sense, i haven't beat the others ones to understand the story. What it's disappoiting is that the Motavia section was a top tier introduction, and Zio was setting up to be a great villain. One of the worst JRPG trope imo, very common as well, when they set up great human-like villains, just to ditch them for an Ancient Evil later on. Grandia did that as well, lame. Chrono Trigger almost did that with Magus, but Lavos had some buildup since the first third of the game.

 

[felipepepe]

I think it really depends on what you're looking at... for example, Trails in the Sky is famous for how alive the world feels. The story itself is nothing revolutionary, but it's told extremely well, with every NPC in the game helping to create a cohesive and immersive setting. It's one of those games people like to lose themselves inside of it, talking to everyone and learning more about the world.

On the other hand you have Final Fantasy Tactics, which is literally just battles + cutscenes, but tells one of the most complex and interesting stories in any RPG. It's very "cinematic" in this sense. Others like FFVI, DQV and Suikoden have great plots, but the dialog itself isn't as memorable.

It's really hard to compare them, but if you are comparing to Planescape, I guess you want some "nature of man" dramas... in the case, probably Final Fantasy Tactics, NieR, Vagrant Story and Lost Odyssey.

 

[Vic]

It's really hard to compare them, but if you are comparing to Planescape, I guess you want some "nature of man" dramas... in the case, probably Final Fantasy Tactics, NieR, Vagrant Story and Lost Odyssey.

funny that you don't mention FF7

 

[Arthandas]

It's really hard to compare them, but if you are comparing to Planescape, I guess you want some "nature of man" dramas...

I'm pretty sure it's not about the topic but the quality of the writing and interesting story/NPCs. Like you can go to the Smoldering Corpse Bar, talk to some random NPC who identifies as a divine letter of the alphabet, have a philosophical discourse and make him disappear - he becomes nothing and all at the same time and gives TNO a glimpse of eternity.

Meanwhile typical JRPG writing:
"OHAYOOOOO NIISAN! Letsu gatheru all friendu and killu GODO! YATAAAAAAA!!!" (if it's a VN she'll also get an obligatory creampie because you're not blood related)

 

[Endemic]

Planescape isn't a typical western RPG though? Also, at times it gets rather overwrought and angsty (I suppose inevitable given the subject matter).

The interesting part of the actual main story is TNO's redemption arc - ultimately the other party characters matter because of their connections to him. What you're talking about with the NPC is worldbuilding. As for gameplay, if you pick anything other than the mage build (INT/WIS) you're missing out on the details that make the game worthwhile (not that anyone is playing PST for combat).

Meanwhile typical JRPG writing:
"OHAYOOOOO NIISAN! Letsu gatheru all friendu and killu GODO! YATAAAAAAA!!!" (if it's a VN she'll also get an obligatory creampie because you're not blood related)

Mass market games aimed at school-age audiences are just as banal in Japan as they are in the West. I don't think anyone is seriously arguing otherwise?

 

[kaisergeddon]

You need to remember that the ending pf PS4 is the conclusion to the entire saga though. The story of that great evil has already been built up in earlier games as a manipulative force behind various events. It's the happy ending we got in ROTJ because the other games has already laid the foundations for it. They really couldn't have done it any other way tbh, especially as the dark endings more open to interpretation had already been done.

Phantasy Star 4 is my favorite JRPG of the 90s for all the reasons you gave in this thread. I feel the western release is fine on its own, but your post reminded me that there is some really good stuff being done in the fan and rom hacking scene. In particular, this retranslation and localization picks up on the connections between the games in the series and clarifies them, and improves on the script using dev team interviews and official supplemental materials. It's worth a look for new and old players. (There is also a fantastic rebalance patch with bugfixes, but that's outside the subject of the thread. I think it's possible to use both patches together too)

Regardless, I also recommend Phantasy Star 4 to anyone wanting a JRPG with a unique sci-fi fantasy theme and a story that respects your intelligence.

I was lucky enough to play it as a kid, and it had a serious influence on me growing up. I started cutting lawns all summer until I could afford a copy, but it was worth every penny the $90 PS4 cost at the time. Now anyone can play it for free!

 

[Arthandas]

Mass market games aimed at school-age audiences

So a typical JRPG then?

as banal in Japan as they are in the West

Except the West doesn't produce mass market CRPGs aimed at school-age audiences. Even bad CRPGs are miles ahead of JRPGs in terms of writing.
Pick any JRPG from the last three decades and most of them will recycle the same fucking tropes with the same fucking characters.

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

rance

Unironically, i've played the first Rance game(the 1989 game not the remake), and it was breath of fresh air, the game has solid writting, better than 90% of the JRPGs i've played, it's often funny and have an original story premise(no save the world or anything grand), the protagonist itself is not a hero, but a sexual predator looking for his own interests. The game is a mixture of Visual Novel and Adventure with some light RPG elements, and i feel like the RPG elements are actually a satire, so i wouldn't call it a JRPG.

Worth playing it.

 

[Rean]

Mass market games aimed at school-age audiences are just as banal in Japan as they are in the West. I don't think anyone is seriously arguing otherwise?

Don't try to reason with that retard, he's one among 4-5 low quality accounts who regularly post in this section only to whine, as a gimmick.

 

[Arthandas]

Don't try to reason with that retard, he's one among 4-5 low quality accounts who regularly post in this section only to whine, as a gimmick.

Funny how you're going all defensive instead of listing all those western "mass market CRPGs aimed at school-age audiences" to counter my argument. Also, feel free to list those PST quality JRPGs, I'll wait.

 

[Rean]

Funny how you're going all defensive instead of listing all those western "mass market CRPGs aimed at school-age audiences" to counter my argument. Also, feel free to list those PST quality JRPGs, I'll wait.

The average Kagura Games title is of higher quality than both PST and your comprehensive posting history.

Hope this helps.

 

[Gerrard]

"You're a high school student and your 8 years old girlfriend is actually a 3000 years old dragon" does not a Planescape Torment make.

Not with that attitude.

Meanwhile typical JRPG writing:
"OHAYOOOOO NIISAN! Letsu gatheru all friendu and killu GODO! YATAAAAAAA!!!" (if it's a VN she'll also get an obligatory creampie because you're not blood related)

Mass market games aimed at school-age audiences are just as banal in Japan as they are in the West. I don't think anyone is seriously arguing otherwise?

You're ignoring the fact that even games which aren't like that originally end up being like that after the English looocalizers are done with them.

 

[Endemic]

You're ignoring the fact that even games which aren't like that originally end up being like that after the English looocalizers are done with them.

Such as? There's a lot of obscure stuff that never gets localized to start with. Schwarzschild series comes to mind. A good portion of the pre-2008 PC (including PC98, etc) games in general. I would say that far outnumbers any good quality games that were butchered in translation.

Japan has a lot of gaming market trends that only make sense if you consider the audience they're aiming at and the environment in which they're consuming their entertainment.

 

[Falksi]

You need to remember that the ending pf PS4 is the conclusion to the entire saga though. The story of that great evil has already been built up in earlier games as a manipulative force behind various events. It's the happy ending we got in ROTJ because the other games has already laid the foundations for it. They really couldn't have done it any other way tbh, especially as the dark endings more open to interpretation had already been done.

Phantasy Star 4 is my favorite JRPG of the 90s for all the reasons you gave in this thread. I feel the western release is fine on its own, but your post reminded me that there is some really good stuff being done in the fan and rom hacking scene. In particular, this retranslation and localization picks up on the connections between the games in the series and clarifies them, and improves on the script using dev team interviews and official supplemental materials. It's worth a look for new and old players. (There is also a fantastic rebalance patch with bugfixes, but that's outside the subject of the thread. I think it's possible to use both patches together too)

Regardless, I also recommend Phantasy Star 4 to anyone wanting a JRPG with a unique sci-fi fantasy theme and a story that respects your intelligence.

I was lucky enough to play it as a kid, and it had a serious influence on me growing up. I started cutting lawns all summer until I could afford a copy, but it was worth every penny the $90 PS4 cost at the time. Now anyone can play it for free!

Great point about "respects your intelligence". That's where I really struggle with some of the other JRPGs, so many treat you like an infant it's unreal (although understandable as that's obviously the target audience for some of them too).

 

[deama]

What about that asura's wrath game? That seemed to have decent writing, I never finished "watching" it though.