Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Incline What exactly influenced RPGs?

smaug

Secular Koranism with Israeli Characteristics
Patron
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
6,590
Location
Texas
Insert Title Here
At least from what I’m aware, the most popular fantasy of the 20th century was stuff like Howard, Tolkien, HP Lovecraft, and Dune etc etc. Even D&D was inspired by these and other classical mythologies.

Despite the above (and others to my knowledge) not having much to do with the classic medieval (or more specifically chivalric works) literature RPGS draw heavily from the medieval romantic genre, despite most popular fantasy (at least I’m inclined to believe) at the time not having many of these medieval romantic elements. What gives?
 
Last edited:

whocares

Savant
Joined
Nov 8, 2016
Messages
450
I will not eat the bugs. I will not live in a pod. I will not use 2FA.
 
Last edited:

Dwarvophile

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 1, 2015
Messages
1,461
It's all pulp and a little bit wargaming trivia, but mostly pulp. The contact with medieval sources was mostly indirect for instance through Poul Anderson(who himself was one of the key influences on D&D).
What about Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, that's p old, and most of the D&D archtypes are already in there.
 

unseeingeye

Cleric/Mage
Patron
Joined
Jul 13, 2021
Messages
591
Strap Yourselves In
I've often wondered along similar lines, at the origins of what amount to archetypes that populate fantasy RPGs. There is no single source and the many threads of history when untangled show major punctuations across many centuries and even millennia, but during the 20th century all of these influences somehow conjoined and established not only the personae but the mythological and environmental elements of the general fantasy RPG mythopoeia. All of the authors named above and others well known besides have certainly contributed to this, but there must be so much more involved that I don't think we can fully comprehend. Tolkien is undoubtedly the nexus for us in the twenty first century, but in a wider sense you have figures like the brothers Grimm and Goethe, among many others less familiar.

I suspect that much of it is due to the way so many different cultures encountered each other in North and South America during the colonial period that ramped up considerably during the Industrial Revolution and a sort of alchemical process unfolded leaving us with a psychic distillate bearing the major features of each cultural heroes journeys and mythology, an amalgam of what is universal in nature but particular only geographically and linguistically. Concepts such as ultima Thule, the world tree, the elevated home of the gods, infernal and chthonic creatures, basically those intangibles that most likely originated in early tribal societies within shamanic contexts, merging with the different cultural figures who appear under different names and feature in different roles as legendary heroes, warrior poets, sainted kings, etc.

In a sense, the material that was later chronicled as the chivalric romances and Matters Of developed under similar conditions as the modern fantasy genre, with barbarian tribal groups in the hundreds and thousands forming alliances and consolidating into new, much broader groups through which isolated, local animistic beliefs and the sense of tribal identities were constellating by force amidst a backdrop of massive displacement and reorientation as the period of migration ended. And these new-ish cultures settled into conquered territories that retained many of the formerly Roman traits, yielding artifacts and relics like the Gothic Bible. Bards, poets and priests recorded much of what had been repeated orally in song or epic form for so long that nobody knew where it came from, changed up a bit of course to accord to local peculiarities, and as literary forms developed so did the urge to preserve these things despite the "danger" (as the priests saw them, anyway).

The way that these things are remembered in a culture is so innate that it almost seems to be genetically inherited. Today we recognize the figures and scenarios of the generic heroes journey as Campbell described it and on a mystical level Jung intuited it, but I think the endless recurrence of pseudo-medieval adventure stories (even the banal and commercial) has a very deep significance for modern Western culture, as one which no longer has any roots and with very few exceptions maintains only the most trivial and ephemeral of traditions. There is a sense of heritage lost that is palpable in these stories, even if regurgitated for easy money it is only easy because of this void. When cultural identities are erased and replaced with a plastic facade a new one begins to emerge, as happened to the Germanic tribes from whom the overwhelming majority of this imagery and personae was taken. Ours is just exceedingly demented because of the internet and automated mass memory retention. You can trace almost any detail in a fantasy RPG to central and western Europe between the Iron Age and the Reinassance, and somehow this has a profound appeal to people, including many people who are not even remotely of Germanic ancestry, and this is fascinating to me. Certain things transcend cultural boundaries and the idealized version of imagined medieval Europe absolutely is one of them. How the contemporary RPG class archetypes were cemented can be demonstrated with war games and the advent of Chainmail and Dungeons & Dragons, but the chivalric romance influence is just as vital to its appeal as the mechanics of play and I think it has to do with the very ideals of the chivalric code and the precedent notions of honor which are next to impossible to abide but remains the high watermark of cultural progress.
 

Faarbaute

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 2, 2017
Messages
771
It is the whole of European mythology, history and culture turned into a standardized product, a repackaging of our shared European myth, for commercial use.
 

Vic

Savant
Undisputed Queen of Faggotry Bethestard
Joined
Oct 24, 2018
Messages
4,488
Location
[REDACTED]
let me see mhh, dragons, dungeons, orcs, elves, halflings, wizards, magical rings.... what could it be?
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,281
Location
Ingrija
At least from what I’m aware, the most popular fantasy of the 20th century was stuff like Howard, Tolkien, HP Lovecraft, and Dune etc etc. Even D&D was inspired by these and other classical mythologies.

Despite the above (and others to my knowledge) not having much to do with the classic medieval (or more specifically chivalric works) literature RPGS draw heavily from the medieval romantic genre, despite most popular fantasy (at least I’m inclined to believe) at the time not having many of these medieval romantic elements. What gives?

Can't sell many splatbooks and modules with Howard and Tolkien alone. They don't have enough monsters to fill a puny 32-page softcover.
 
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
3,256
The very early pnp scene was mostly made out of grown men, tbh, which makes sense, because they have money to spare. Sci fi literature had been a very popular niche in the first half of the 20th century and hippies brought back LOTR and hyped Dune because both appealed to their whole shtick. I collected comic anthologies from the 70s and 80s and they have a very respectful tone in ads and editorials when addressing the reader, more like "mister" than "buddy". Granted, the t&a all over them would warrant a certain age of entry in these things, but I guess my point remains. I'd argue that the Red Box allowed children to get into the hobby, which is a clever move--while kids have no money, they have more time to spare, and are more prone to fall for hype and things like that.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
4,201
RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
At least from what I’m aware, the most popular fantasy of the 20th century was stuff like Howard, Tolkien, HP Lovecraft, and Dune etc etc. Even D&D was inspired by these and other classical mythologies.

Despite the above (and others to my knowledge) not having much to do with the classic medieval (or more specifically chivalric works) literature RPGS draw heavily from the medieval romantic genre, despite most popular fantasy (at least I’m inclined to believe) at the time not having many of these medieval romantic elements. What gives?
One of the more popular fantasy books at that time was Paul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three lions which was inspired by medieval romances. He's even mentioned in Appendix N. Main character is pretty much a template for the Palading class in D&D he even gains the ability to lay on hands, there's also a conflict between forces and law and chaos years before Moorcock. The story isn't that great but the book is rather fun and also pretty short so I'd recommend reading it especially if you're interested in books that inspired early RPGs.


Also it's not like medieval romances ever became obscure. King Arthur always had some pop culture presence. T.H.White's The Once and Future King and Prince Valiant comic strip for example.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,281
Location
Ingrija
One of the more popular fantasy books at that time was Paul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three lions which was inspired by medieval romances. He's even mentioned in Appendix N. Main character is pretty much a template for the Palading class in D&D he even gains the ability to lay on hands, there's also a conflict between forces and law and chaos years before Moorcock.

Don't forget regenerating trolls. Lifted wholesale from Anderson.
 

KainenMorden

Educated
Patron
Joined
Aug 19, 2022
Messages
901
Codex Year of the Donut
I agree with unseeingeye and others here.

Tolkein was heavily influenced by Old Englosh literature, his work definitely had some connection to the medieval time period. Beowulf was of particular importance to Tolkein and that was depicting the early middle ages.

Gygax was well read and clearly was influenced by the mythos of King Arthur, Merlin, etc among many others.
 

Kev Inkline

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
5,144
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'll cross-post this scientific report I submitted to the Codex advisory board a while ago (see the link), but here's pretty much a complete map of the development of this genre.

I took a more scientific approach to this phase transition

ZW7ldod.jpg
 

Late Bloomer

Scholar
Joined
Apr 7, 2022
Messages
3,032
I would say the main influence first and foremost when it comes to games is D&D. Which I would say is influenced most by Greek Mythology, Tolkien, European Middle Ages
 

KainenMorden

Educated
Patron
Joined
Aug 19, 2022
Messages
901
Codex Year of the Donut
One thing I wanted to mention even though the op was asking more about medieval themes in RPGs in general than specifically about what influenced dnd, there is definitely a middle eastern/semitic mythology influence on dnd.

Golems for example come directly from Jewish folklore.

Also, Gygax denied influence from Tolkein but obviously he said this for legal reasons. At the same time, early dnd campaigns played out more like a sword and sorcery story than a Tolkein epic.
 

Late Bloomer

Scholar
Joined
Apr 7, 2022
Messages
3,032
One thing I wanted to mention even though the op was asking more about medieval themes in RPGs in general than specifically about what influenced dnd, there is definitely a middle eastern/semitic mythology influence on dnd.

Golems for example come directly from Jewish folklore.

Have more examples of this? Or is it just Golems?
 

KainenMorden

Educated
Patron
Joined
Aug 19, 2022
Messages
901
Codex Year of the Donut
One thing I wanted to mention even though the op was asking more about medieval themes in RPGs in general than specifically about what influenced dnd, there is definitely a middle eastern/semitic mythology influence on dnd.

Golems for example come directly from Jewish folklore.

Have more examples of this? Or is it just Golems?

Genies of various types,mummies, manticores, sphinx, pazuzu, ghouls have an eastern origin too but I suppose you can debate that one but the etymology of the word itself is eastern, angels and demons in general have a basis in semitic tradition but the ones represented in dnd are similar to archetypes that were popular in Europe in the middle ages.

Off the top of my head, not sure how many of these Gygax actually put in the game vs what came later.

Forgotten realms has areas heavily influenced by the middle east like Calimshan.

The whole al qadim setting.

Probably a few other things I'm forgetting/overlooking

Not as strong an influence as greco roman/other European mythology but it's there.

Oh and everyone sees gnomes as being Jews but also, Tolkein's dwarves are based off jews
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom