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What does an ideal cRPG look like to you? What game has come the closest to that idea?

Rincewind

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NO GAY SHIT

don't waste my time. tile based, wizardry style first person/ultima style overhead viewpoint, my party moves as fast as I can push the buttons. turn based combat for the same reason. if I'm watching my little dudes doing things and not making decisions it's gay. no gay shit.

not too long. The longer something is the more likely it is your game will have barely playtested 1st draft gay parts, that are gay. no gay shit.

not too much reading. reading is not playing and besides you don't need a billion words to be evocative/build character, learn to write short stories instead of novels. novels are gay. no gay shit

'romances' are pretty embarrassing too. especially if they're gay romances. no gay shit

bad graphics are gay. I don't require all the latest bells and whistles but don't look like every other game/have assets that don't fit together/assets in different resolutions/way too busy UIs that I can't easily extract information from. no gay shit.

if you have a class based game, remember that basically every class in the universe is just a (gay) variation on one of fighter/cleric/magic-user (and really clerics are just halfway houses between f/m-u anyway, and thus quite possibly gay themselves). consider putting your EXCITING and totally not gay character customisation options as in-game rewards for completing quests/joining factions or whatever instead of wasting my time telling me about the precise delineations between fighter/ranger/barbarian/viking/berserker/valkyrie/amok/dervish/samurai/gay because I don't care. no gay shit

as a corollary to the above too many classes will routinely result on OP/suboptimal choices. yeah breaking games is fun but it shouldn't really happen by accident as a result of some gay and arbitrary decision you made before even seeing your first monster. no gay shit

as another corollary to the above, character creation is gay. It should take five minutes TOPS. Moving numbers around a spreadsheet is gay. no gay shit

I dunno, I was just planning to write another drive-by shit post and now I'm ranting, but basically every sacred crpg cow is gay and needs to be put out to the gay pasture where it belongs, along with the other gay cows. in short you should be able to play at your own pace, all important decisions should be made in-game and not as a result of reading a wiki, the game should be fun all the way through. nerds seem to think that the 'rp' part of rpg game is the most important, but it's the 'pg'. rpg games are role-playing GAME games. That you fuckin play. not playing a game that you are 'playing' is gay. no gay shit
Anyway my most best and idealest games are Wiz1 (the SNES version with the awesome art and atmosphere, plus no gay apple ii load times) and, uh, Worlds of Ultima Savage Empire. on the basis I fixated on hot cave babes as a kid for whatever reason (probably because of that one bint in the fur bikini in the D&D cartoon) and it's got a bunch of them in it. Ray Dyer's Realms for FRUA is fuckin cool too, something like that but in an engine built for it would be as robustly heterosexual as any crpg could ever be.

tl;dr, no gay shit
Quoting it in full, because this post needs to be preserved. You and I are pretty much in agreement in what makes a good *game*, and I remember one of your posts I think the new Monkey Island threads, and your remarks about old adventures were spot-on. You should post more! :salute:

Some more things that I really don't like:

I can't emphasise it enough how I despise bad and voluminous writing (I can't suffer Planescape Torment and its likes). Maybe I hate it so much *because* I like reading books, so my standards for good prose is quite high. 80s RPGs were fine because the text was short and to the point, the authors did not try to impress, prose was functional and mostly okay. Same story with most adventure games; the authors of those did not suffer from verbal diarrhea, most of the time. Of the nu-school RPGs the only ones where I was 100% happy with the writing was Gothic, Witcher 1, and Age of Decadence of the more text-heavy ones. Especially AoD — for me Vince is the best cRPG writer of all time, and I really mean it. Can't wait for Colony Ship!

RPGs have been getting just too long, for their own detriment. The trend started in the 80s; the "expected hours of playtime" figure became a selling point, unfortunately, so at some point dev studios attempted to outdo each other or themselves in terms of putting as much content into a game as they could (and possibly padding out the playtime). Well, when you optimise for one thing, that usually comes at the expense of other things. Many RPGs are just too long; I dread starting any game these days that promises 60-80-100+ hours of playtime. I want more focused experiences, 20-40 hours long is ideal, and then it wouldn't take me 3-6 months to finish it (if I ever finish).

I was on the fence about simulationism for a long time, but now I can say with certainty: I don't like it. I don't want to do boring shit in games; I like a good challenge, but ultimately I want games to be *fun*, not a chore. Maintaining your weapons and armor, managing hunger, weight, and god knows what else, that doesn't sound like my idea of fun at all. When I must get up at 6am in the cold and cycle to the train station in 5 degrees in the rain to catch the train to work — that's realistic. But is it fun though? Are you interested in reading about people's bowel problems or acid reflux in books? I don't think so — same goes for games, most of this stuff can (and should) be abstracted away.

In general, games should be fun, not "realistic". I want games to be "gamey"; when the CRPG addict writes diatribes about D&D dungeons "not making sense", and wondering why there are no shops in dungeons, or where do the monsters sleep, or some similar craziness, I'm like, hello, since when is *any* of the D&D stuff realistic? It's meant to be fun, first and foremost.

Same goes for realistic graphics. I want graphics to be *good* and characterful, but not necessarily realistic, and have very little care for 3D (but I'm not against it either when done well).

All in all, my main criteria for good cRPGS:
  • party based
  • turn based tactical combat OR first-person dungeon-crawler style real-time combat (I like both), but *never* real-time with pause, or full realtime (the full 3D first-person action-rpg subgenre is an exception, of course)
  • preferably grid-based (I love mapping, and you can't really map non-grid based games )
  • minimal to low amount of text
  • story is relatively unimportant, e.g. look at the Grimrock of Eye of the Beholder games
  • abstract experience, preferably 2D or isometric 3D, in rare cases full 3D (but full 3D games are restricted to single-player only)
  • save anywhere, or some well-done save system like in Grimrock II
  • not too long
These days I got into the habit of comparing every single game in every genre to the undisputed classics that feature almost 100% gameplay and no fluff and are super-fun to play still: Tetris, Pac-Man, Lode Runner, Another World, Rogue, etc. No, I'm not joking, that actually gives you a very good basis of comparison of whether the *actual* gameplay is any fun in a given game, or you're just watching cut-scenes, taking a walk in a nice 3D countryside, or reading badly written prose in a 5-line long text box instead of you know, actually *playing a GAME*.
 
Last edited:

sunset261

Novice
Joined
Jul 5, 2022
Messages
3
- Party-based
-no traditional fantasy races like dwarves, elves, etc. because at this point they just make a setting feel LESS interesting.
- likable characters and engaging main story
- interesting loot
- either turn-based or RTWP
-more Varied objectives in combat encounters than "kill these mobs on a flat plane". Like maybe you need to apprehend a specific enemy before he gets away or defend a certain place. Maybe make you use certain things in the environment.
-doesn't use D&D because at this point I'm convinced trying to turn D&D into an SP computer game is just an innately flawed concept due to the ability to save and reload. Maybe if it constantly autosaved and had permadeath but not many long RPGs are gonna do that.
-interesting map design and exploration
-rad soundtrack

best overall for me is probably BG2.
 

sunset261

Novice
Joined
Jul 5, 2022
Messages
3
if you have a class based game, remember that basically every class in the universe is just a (gay) variation on one of fighter/cleric/magic-user (and really clerics are just halfway houses between f/m-u anyway, and thus quite possibly gay themselves). consider putting your EXCITING and totally not gay character customisation options as in-game rewards for completing quests/joining factions or whatever instead of wasting my time telling me about the precise delineations between fighter/ranger/barbarian/viking/berserker/valkyrie/amok/dervish/samurai/gay because I don't care. no gay shit
This. Few things put me off more than munchkining buildfag garbage like 3.5/pathfinder games. Do we really need Witch, Wizard, Kineticist, Sorceror, Arcanist, and Magus to all be different things?
 

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