Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

What cau$ed the decline?

A user named cat

Guest
Consumers caused the decline.
Exactly. Blaming Xbox, Oblivion and anything else is nonsense. The only thing to blame is the fruition of Idiocracy and today's pampered generation. It isn't like games just declined, almost everything around us has from music and culture to movies and society in general. From dubstep and techno pop rap, Michaey Bayism and shaky cam. fascist political correctness and hipsters, to Twitter and internet culture itself. The decline has seeped in all around us steadily and it will lead us to a future of blue haired trannie armies and Equilibrium policies.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,296
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I'm not arguing that PC advancement slowed down, I'm saying that the a static set of hardware requirements coupled with large marketshare enticed publishers and development houses to stagnate.
I strongly agree with this bit.

Eventually gaming got popular outside of the nerd segment. This meant games had to be enjoyable for stupid people, hence the decline
Basically that's the whole story although it is a bit too much of a generalization imo. Of course, no complex process in history has just one factor contributing to its emergence. Also, I think many people who try to explain the process of "decline" are mistaking its symptoms for its causes.

Nothing I write is based on any research of course, but my argument is that nothing that's happening to the video/computer games market is a unique phenomenon. There is nothing unique about "the decline". If it seems that way to you, that's because you don't know your history.

I very much agree with Telengard's explanation but I think it's part of an even bigger picture. Since I'm not in the mood of writing essays, it boils down to a pattern that has been seen in other branches of the entertainment industry in the past - a technology emerges that allows mass-access to a given type of entertainment, hence a widening of its audience, which in turn affects the (majority of) content that's produced, because the demand becomes different.

This has been the case with music, theatre, opera (in entertainment) since the at least 19th century when industrialization opened immense-sized markets for goods and services which until then had been accessible only to an elite, and that's even before the globalization of industrialization (which sort of stopped with China after 1979 and we're next expecting it in Africa at some point). Then in the early 20th century cinema appears - another enormous market opens.

And every time there is a group of "I was doing this before it was cool" consumers who are forecasting the end of the world now that the plebs have access to the same kind of entertainment, or other goods and services where such complaints would be applicable. It's funny how in the 19th century there were aristocrats annoyed at the fact that now every simple citizen could wear the same (or at least a very similar version of) suit or dress that used to be available only to the well off merely decades ago. :)

So there is the decline explained for you, at least as much as I can explain it. It's not that interesting for me. What's interesting are the reasons for the incline, and my guess is that they lie in exactly the same process I described, because the wider the market becomes as a whole, the larger the segment of the audience that enjoys your particular subgenre of this entertainment will become.

Simply put - the more "gay noob fags" we have today playing MMOs, the more (in absolute terms, not in percentage terms) audience for more serious games we'll have in ten years. I think it's exactly the widening of the market that allowed for things like digital delivery to appear (digital delivery didn't emerge to "deliver" us from the decline mind you, but to provide the mass audience with more convenient access to a mass product), which in turn made crowd-funding of niche games possible because it made them economically viable.

Another interesting phenomenon in which the games industry seems to be mirroring perfectly the movie industry is the arms race of AAA titles which at some point stops being profitable for the participants in the arms race. I very strongly encourage you to take a look at this interview given by Steven Spielberg and George Lucas in June 2013 Or the boiled down version here: George Lucas & Steven Spielberg: Studios Will Implode; VOD Is the Future .

It's the same process they are describing (AAA titles' budgets growing and investors becoming progressively risk-averse which leads to a drop in artistic quality of the products, as directors target the lowest common denominator in the audience) that we are calling "the decline" here, and the games industry seems to be slowly becoming aware of it - see "Why Paradox boss wants "more Goat Simulator, less Call of Duty"".

What's interesting for me is that the service of Video-on-demand which Spielberg and Lucas propose as the future of their industry is vaguely similar to what crowd-funded games in our industry are, inasmuch as in this model of funding content it's the end-user, or the audience if you prefer, which votes directly on which project is good and which isn't. Again, I want to emphasize, it's the technology which allows the users to vote which causes the disruption, and that's the reason for the incline. Ironically, I see this technology to be born out of the success of the 'decline' - its success being the widening of the audience.

Another interesting question for me is - which are the main "supporting characters" of the decline - the factors which helped it. Many people so far have noted the technology advancement, the mass-access to PCs and consoles, the Internet becoming mainstream, becoming faster, but there are other factors, which I think are going unnoticed, and are connected to the so-called "first incline" - with computer games becoming an industry as a result of the first incline, we got science advancements in the field of games production. Some of you probably know this, but I'll remind you that Marc LeBlanc who is best known to me for programming Thief's AI (because that was about the time I began playing computer games) is one of the first people who wrote about gamification (I think even before the term was coined). With more and more money becoming involved in producing games, science became involved too - behaviour psychology being applied to game design contributed much to "decline" and I think its effect is under appreciated here. It wasn't just the kids with consoles, but the designers who gave them the addictive content. Anyway, that's another long subject.

It turned out a long essay anyway. ;)

EDIT:
Consumers caused the decline.
Exactly. Blaming Xbox, Oblivion and anything else is nonsense. The only thing to blame is the fruition of Idiocracy and today's pampered generation. It isn't like games just declined, almost everything around us has from music and culture to movies and society in general. From dubstep and techno pop rap, Michaey Bayism and shaky cam. fascist political correctness and hipsters, to Twitter and internet culture itself. The decline has seeped in all around us steadily and it will lead us to a future of blue haired trannie armies and Equilibrium policies.
Thoughts like that mean only that you're getting old. The world isn't ending anytime soon, and consumers will always be consumers, and the average Joe will always have mediocre preferences and tastes, whether it's about books, movies, games, what have you. "I bet there were people in biblical times sayng "Kids these days..."" (sorry that's a quote from Mad Men). I don't know about biblical times, but people have been predicting the end of the world and the decline of culture and civilization since antiquity.
 
Last edited:

Whiran

Magister
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
641
I would suggest that the decline happened because of a 'perfect storm' of conditions.

For each successful game there were a dozen or so (at least it seems that way in my memory) of crappy copy-cat games attempting to capitalize on the success. This led to over-saturation of the market with bad titles which led consumers and potential consumers away from that genre. I remember when RPGs were THE THING... that was until there were so many really bad rpg wannabe clones that people jumped ship to Real Time Strategy games. RTS were THE thing... until there were so many really bad RTS clones that sent people elsewhere looking for something else.

I believe that the distribution system of the time compounded the troubles of decent titles - it was very hard to sell into the channel when the channel was only interested in "sure things" which meant copy-cat games of successful titles. Unfortunately those copy games didn't do so well which then led to a narrowing of acceptance to "established franchises."

Many of those established franchises got so worked up in dumb technology that they forgot their roots (I'm looking at you Origin Systems - Wing Commander AND Ultima both suffered from this) so customers got turned off of those games as well.

At the same time as this was happening (the distribution channel becoming harder to sell to for new titles, over saturation of bad copy-cat games that introduced nothing interesting, focus on technology over content and gameplay) we also had the interesting impact of North American demographics shaping the North American market - the "echo" generation was just hitting the teens and thus were positioned really well for gaming consoles. As I grew up my family had one of the original consoles (ColecoVision) and, happily, an Apple II+. Parents looking to get their children involved in something a little different than TV could pick up a gaming console for the perfect demographic for it at the time - early teenagers.

Consoles in western nations turned out to be a great platform for first person shooter type games and other action games which directly targeted a young male audience. RPGs had a very hard time finding funding and a hard time at getting their game to market via the then established channel of game stores. With limited channel exposure, little funding, the marketing for the games was really limited as well (for example, I didn't even know about Bloodlines and I have been an RPG fan since playing Ultima IV when it came out until I ventured onto the Codex) the companies trying to produce RPGs were in a very vulnerable position. Many closed shop while others were bought up by other companies.

There were a myriad of factors that went into the "decline" of RPGs in the early 2000s but I think these are some of major causes.
 

naossano

Cipher
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
1,232
Location
Marseilles, France
Nice to hear all those reasons, which for the most part make sense.

If i'll have to pick a Patient Zero, it would be Diablo, for all the attention it brought to the streamlining.
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,837
Nice to hear all those reasons, which for the most part make sense.

If i'll have to pick a Patient Zero, it would be Diablo, for all the attention it brought to the streamlining.
Remember, Diablo 1 had a pseudo-classless skill system. You could learn magic spells as a warrior, and use bows. You didn't receive the same Mana/Damage per INT/DEX point as mages/rogues, but it made for more diverse builds.
 

BBMorti

Arcane
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
607
Too much sense and too little -->
LNNziPI.jpg
type of arguments, in this thread.
 

set

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
940
Publishers fighting over shelf space. Growing budgets and team sizes on the development side. Increased advertising leading to games finding audiences instead of audiences finding games. It leads to lowest common denominator type designs. Games ended up in a blockbuster sales model.

It's the way it is now because of massive decentralization of distribution (no shelf space problem), crowdfunding + diversification of funding models in general, new audiences, and cultural fragmentation.
World of Warcraft
Call of Duty
Greed
Increasing costs

Probably in that order.
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
WoW started in 2004 dude

Like, for example SSI and Microprose went down because they couldn't keep up with budgets in the early '90s (leading to death by Mindscape and Spectrum Holobyte respectively); the direction had been set long ago. The '00s was just reaping what had been sown when the last holdouts croaked.
 

Drakron

Arcane
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
6,326
That was certainly a factor, there was a consolidation of publishers and many development studios end up being brought up by them, I can only point out at EA shopping spree as a example but they were hardly the only ones, Sierra brought Dynamix for example.

As for consoles, I dont blame the Xbox as much as the PS2 that was too successful as the major harm that the Xbox did was Microsoft attempts just pushed publishers into making more console games, PS2 that is because of the huge market share of the system as well sales ... hard to pass that up.
 

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
10,864
I have to run with Mondblut on this. I remember seeing many problems arise in the early/mid 90's.

You had a swag of companies falling over or being snapped up by the big guys. CRPGs from the previous big guys (Origin, SSI, whoever else was left) being absolute rubbish (Super Avatar Brothers, I was sooo pissed off), or at best, unfinished buggy messes. Patches were not something easy to come by, so releasing unfinished games back then was a virtual hanging offence. Yeah, I just can't remember many positives at all when it comes to CRPGs during this period. I name it as the real start of the decline for computer RPGs. A steady decade of constant evolution leading to some real magic in the latter 80s - 90/91, and then the slide begins.

The late 90's seemed better than what had come before, but it only took a couple of years (if that) before the slide began again, at an even more rapid pace.
 

Xorazm

Cipher
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
106
How many RPG series even made the jump from early 90's to late 90's, other than the big three? I can't recall any.

Precisely. If you follow the criteria established by MRY's question, you only get 'the big 3' of Ultima, Wizardry and Might & Magic. (Series like the Elder Scrolls and Ravenloft started in 1994, so they don't count.)

We have to go into JRPG territory to get a different answer, with Final Fantasy 6 being released in 1994. That isn't considered decline by me or most others, and I don't even like JRPGs. Final Fantasy 7, on the other hand, is pure decline.

This raises a really interesting point, one that we all may be overlooking. The commonly blamed culprit seems to be consoles, and while there's a lot of truth in that, it would also seem that jRPGs have also suffered from their own decline, as there are few oft-cited classics in the jRPG genre emerging from the PS2 era and onwards. You would think that, given that jRPGs have always had their home on the consoles, jRPGs would then thrive with the onset of consolisation, perhaps rising up and eclipsing their cRPG brethren.

What this seems to indicate is that RPGs simply fell out of favor across the board, with the vast waves of incoming players simply preferring a more streamlined, more action-based experience. I struggle to think of any truly long games that rose to prominence in the post PS2 era, other than the standbys produced by the still-standing Bioware and Bethesda. This would therefore point the finger less directly at the XBox or skullduggery by Microsoft, as this explanation would predict that a surge in popularity of gaming would lead to declining interest in RPGs no matter the forum choice. Video gaming, in other words, was inevitably doomed to become a victim of its own successes.

There's also something to be said, I think, for the influence of a network effect. The late 90s/early 2000s golden era was clearly the result of many designers playing each other's game and attempting to both learn from and one-up each other, but we tend to forget that it came after a period of its own decline. I remember that one year - I think it was 1994 - Computer Gaming World simply refused to give out a Role Playing Game of the Year award, concluding that there just weren't any suitable candidates. I don't know if the reasons for that decline have anything to do with the recent decline, but I do know that Baldur's Gate kicked off a renaissance that, for RPG fans, was a looooooong time in coming (similar, let's hope, to the sudden arrival of Kickstarter on the scene).
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,071
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
I honestly can't think of any other logical argument for why the Xbox caused a decline in PC games, most notably RPGs, than the typical "multiplatforming imposed design constraints that required dumbing down the games". Nothing else really makes sense.

Nobody in their right mind was going to decamp from their PC userbase to a console that, in sales terms, did good for what it was. Looking at Le Wiki, the Xbox moved about 24 million units. Sounds like a pretty big install base, right? Well, not exactly.

The Sega Dreamcast, which was an outright flop, causing Sega to leave the hardware market entirely, is reported at 10 million. The Nintendo Gamecube, also considered to be a failure (selling far less than Nintendo's previous machine and ceding more market share to competitors), ranks in at about 22 million. And the mighty Xbox at 24 million. Hey, I mean, it's more than twice that of a flop, and a couple million over an industry powerhouse in steep decline...that's good right? Well, maybe if the PS2 didn't sell over 150 million units.

The Xbox was small fry. It wasn't putting up multi-million sales figures in the same way that numerous Playstation games were. No smart manager was going to throw away the PC base solely for the Xbox one. The money just wasn't there. Multiplatforming, on the other hand, might have made sense.

I think that most people mean "Xbox 360" when they say "Xbox". There were only a few exclusives worth noting on the original, anyway.

(still the 360 is too recent to have caused any kind of "decline")
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,186
Culprit is not "the consoles",if you want to blame something its only microsoft console xbox360 to blame . Before this we had mostly non mainstream games on consoles, real japanese games for the hardcore. The new console generation does not seem to have those anymore, except nintendo who still has some great stuff.Thats why i am not getting a ps4 i dont see those hardcore exclusive japanese games anymore.
High end graphics for cheap hardware cost , available to everyone just pushing one button brought the decline . With very high bugdet games, that old hobby for nerds became an industryfor the mainstream so we were left in the dust . No longer wanted and not worth the cost, since anyway most geeks were pirating , mister average joe cant modchip his xbox better work for him .

Other culprits are MMO but to a lesser extent, while we were trying out UO , everquest and daoc we were not buying the latest single player rpgs anymore.
 

Drakron

Arcane
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
6,326
You would think that, given that jRPGs have always had their home on the consoles, jRPGs would then thrive with the onset of consolisation, perhaps rising up and eclipsing their cRPG brethren.

But they did.

The decline in JRPGs was caused by Squarenix "cinematographic" experience were cutscenes taken priority over the rest, look at Chrono Trigger and compare it with FF X, RPG lost popularity only became the cost were suddenly if you wanted something like Chrono Trigger you would have to spend a lot of money in voice acting and CGI animations, this coupled by the saturation of RPGs caused other simpler game types to appear, just look at Monster Hunter.

The addition of voice acting just raise RPG costs and also make then suffer as NPCs had to be voiced and thus things had to be condensed.
 

Telengard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Messages
1,621
Location
The end of every place
Games tech was due for a stall, no matter what. People don't buy luxury items during a downturn. When people don't buy, the tech can't move. So, from 2008 there was going to be a stall for 5+ years, and that's whether or not consoles existed.

And to put Xbox in perspective, it sold less than the Atari 2600, and the Atari did its 30 million in a much smaller market, thus allowing it to rule the roost in a way that the later pretenders to the throne could only dream of. Even the Playstation 2 never got that kind of market control, and the 360's control was pitiful next to even the Playstation 2s. The one factor that did really change here, though, was demographics. Atari, Nintendo, and Sega, they were pitched at families or as kiddie computers. Playstation and Xbox were effectively marketed at an older crowd. So, the Nintendo generation graduated to Playstations and Xboxes instead of to PCs.

Which is something that would have hurt PC RPG gaming a lot more, if it hadn't already suicided itself during a failed run at the tech race.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,688
Games tech was due for a stall, no matter what. People don't buy luxury items during a downturn. When people don't buy, the tech can't move. So, from 2008 there was going to be a stall for 5+ years, and that's whether or not consoles existed.

This is a spurious argument because there's no reason for people to buy premium tech. There are no games made for it.
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

Guest
Concept: 'Hi guys, I've learned that my neighbor is a complete retard, but I've also heard these people have a lot of money and there are a lot of them, so let's make sure people like them will buy our games and make us rich!'
Execution: 'We've made sure that our game is welcoming to newfags and retards and is a direct offence to hardcore fans. Fuck these fans, they don't cover the production costs.'
Consequence: 'To all bitching hardcore fans: the game was released 9 hours earlier than expected, so we didn't have time to implement hardcore... please, guys, buy our game, we'll patch the popamole out, please, please, please, I have to feed my pants with diamond cockrings.'
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
It feels like that pictures is sprite based.
The point of actual 3D was to make things easier (at first) as someone else mentioned.
What? No. The point of 3D rendering was that it looks cool.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom