Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Game News Wasteland 2 Kickstarter Update #36: Stats, Skills and Screenshots

Kem0sabe

Arcane
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
13,100
Location
Azores Islands
The level design must be leaps and bounds better than what was shown in the last video (the former Ranger HQ), i think that video did more harm than good overall. Hopefully the beta feedback will go a ways to point them in the right direction.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
The level design must be leaps and bounds better than what was shown in the last video (the former Ranger HQ), i think that video did more harm than good overall. Hopefully the beta feedback will go a ways to point them in the right direction.
In the end it doesn't really matter if people like us like the videos. Either Fargo already has our money, or we'll buy it based on reviews on the codex. The pre-release hype doesn't affect us at this point. So the videos are aimed at other audiences.
 

Seerix

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
235
I'm starting to like the printer description box, looks much more in line with rest of the UI than it did before. Environments, especially the AG center pic, look beautiful.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
I have issues with the "painted on the texture" mushrooms in the first screenshot. At least that's how it looks like they're made.

It looks quite nice overall.
 

Aeschylus

Swindler
Patron
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
2,538
Location
Phleebhut
Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
OK, time to dumbfuck Ramireza
It took you this long to realize that?

And yeah, the screenshots look pretty good, though I still think the button graphics look a bit amateurish. Also, the one place where Phantasmal's mockup is obviously better is in how the portraits are presented. The cyan selection border in those shots looks weird, and I'm not crazy about the sharp corners on the boxes. The portraits would look better as a contiguous element rather than a bunch of individual bits.
 

undecaf

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
3,517
Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
Much better update than the last one. The mechanics, the mechanics..... :incline:

Must be because it all sounds better on paper than in practice.

:troll:
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2013
Messages
3,915
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Good update.
I hope they don't listen to the mainstreamaniacs at the Kickstarter page, some of whom critizise that there are three, not two social skills. I think these three make perfectly sense, like them a lot!
But there are two skills where I don't see the benefit in not having them combined. To quote some "Mike" guy: "For example, I find it hard to believe (or even understand) how a master in Weaponsmithing would be able to add parts to a gun without knowing how to remove parts from it (the Field Stripping skill)." He has a point, right? Or am I missing something?
 

Dreaad

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
5,604
Location
Deep in your subconscious mind spreading lies.
Taking things apart is generally a completely different skill to putting things together. With putting things together you generally have to have a decent level of understanding of what it is you are trying to improve in given device. Different mind set really, though I guess if you took apart guns constantly you would eventually figure out what goes where and why.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,865
I mean not every skill should start at zero without investment; implement skill synergy.
synergy will probably come in options to use different related skills with a bigger or lesser difficulty regarding how related is the skill to the problem.
If you dont know how to do it, you dont know. i would make distinctions between trained or non trained skills tho... as in, non trained can still be used even at level 0, while trained skills require professional training and cant be used by someone without knowledge.
 

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
My take....
- way too many redundant skills (a weaponsmmith should know how to field strip, a synth tech should know how to computer hack, etc)
I get that they are doing this because its a party based game but it still feels wrong.

- no H2H = bad

- brute force and perception are silly
I do not understand their predisposition against stat based checks.
 

Mantic

Educated
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
87
I do not understand their predisposition against stat based checks.
Because Wasteland 1 was a skill-based cRPG, attributes were pretty much useless except IQ for raising skill points. Wasteland 1 also had a alot of minor utility skills which got very rare use, but when they did it could be very beneficial, did you read the update? They say quite clearly in one line that the objective isn't to "balance" or make sure all skills get equal use, but to make sure those skills which get rarer use are more important when they do. ie you don't expect to be using Toaster Repair or Animal Whisperer often, but when you do it could be very useful.

But that being said, Wasteland 2 isn't about designing an entirely new RPG where they can make bold design decisions like "well these two skills are 'redundant' so we'll merge them", that would be inappropriate to what WL2 is supposed to be about, creating a loyal sequel to Wasteland. And Wasteland had a heaps of skills, some more useful than others, presumably because the designers thought that giving the player more choice in character creation was more important than in perfectly balancing the skill system, which I agree, fuck balance I want more stuff and more flavor, having shitloads of eccentric and weird skills like Cryptology, Bureaucracy and Clone Tech gave Wasteland it's soul and it's charm. I don't give a flying fuck if Toaster Repair isn't balanced against Lockpick, it's awesome that a game in 2013 can have stuff like that.

Wasteland is clearly going for an approach which simulates the WL ruleset.
 

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
I can understand what they are going for. It just does not seem like particularly good game design to me. I don't actually think a toaster repair skill is something thats particularly awesome, for example. They could have taken a tip from Fallout and had that be a perk.

Investing a ton into a skill only to have it be used a few times is silly. What would it feel like for a player to invest a bunch in a skill only to have it be used once every few hours? That would seriously make me pissed at the game, imho. Moreover, unless you metagame, what happens if you invest heavily in a skill but not enough at the right time for one of the few instances where its useful? This design is very filled with flaws and I hope they do not go this way with Torment.

*edit:
Also, forgoing attritube checks just because WL1 didn't have attribute checks is silly. Changes have already been made to core WL gameplay (the combat, for example). Stat checks would have been another welcome change in my book. Deeping the meaning of character development choices and having character stats mean something are good things. The notion that a person of maximal strength cannot break down a door because he is not skilled at it is ludicrous.
 
Last edited:

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,548
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Think of him not as being of "maximal strength", but rather having maximal strength potential.

What about the difference between a low-level character and a high-level character with the same strength value? Why is the low-level character with "maximal strength" weaker than the high-level one? It's basically the same thing.
 

Mantic

Educated
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
87
I can understand what they are going for. It just does not seem like particularly good game design to me. I don't actually think a toaster repair skill is something thats particularly awesome, for example. They could have taken a tip from Fallout and had that be a perk.

Investing a ton into a skill only to have it be used a few times is silly. What would it feel like for a player to invest a bunch in a skill only to have it be used once every few hours? That would seriously make me pissed at the game, imho. Moreover, unless you metagame, what happens if you invest heavily in a skill but not enough at the right time for one of the few instances where its useful? This design is very filled with flaws and I hope they do not go this way with Torment.
Well, I don't think of game design as some kind of mathematical science, I think it's more akin to a creative and artistic thing. If it's cool in game, if it adds to the uniqueness and charm, I don't think it matters if it's balanced, many old RPGs followed a similar logic which many modern designers would think "What were they thinking", like in insidiously hard dungeon maze designs, or puzzles, or in Wasteland's case strange skills like Cryptology or Confidence which might only get 1 or 2 uses in the whole game, yet the player in his imagination might always wonder where that one use for the skill actually was, and what (possibly) huge and valuable benefit it might give you. I mean I never took Toaster Repair in WL1 but as I understand you could only use it to repair toasters in the Sleeper Base.

I think this newfangled obsession with "balance" in game design is pure bullshit and has no place outside out competitive multi-player gaming, it appeals to those of the most banal and unimaginative minds who need everything in the system to be 100% mathematically balanced or their brain overheats or something. No room for flavor or anything. They should all be forced to play Realms of Arkania series until they understand the concept of flavor and simulation in cRPGs.
 

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
Think of him not as being of "maximal strength", but rather having maximal strength potential.

What about the difference between a low-level character and a high-level character with the same strength value? Why is the low-level character with "maximal strength" weaker than the high-level one? It's basically the same thing.

Still doesn't make sense to me. This guy (see below) does not need skill to break down a door or smash a box. I dont care if he has never tried to break down a door or smash a box. I am willing to bet he can get it done. Doing it many times may help him do it FASTER in the future. He may be able to splinter the wood into finer bits. But, regardless of his experience, that door is going down.

Arnold-Schwarzenegger-Young-Photos-40.jpg


Mantic:
Balance is a good thing. While I concur that players should be given enough rope to hang themselves, I disagree with the idea of fluff skills. Choices should be meaningful. Being able to get goats to run into mines twice in a 30 hour game or being able to fix a toaster a couple of times does not seem terribly meaningful. Skills should be used often to afford the player a sense that their choices matter. The notion of low use skills flies right in the face of their supposed focus on reactivity.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,548
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I think this newfangled obsession with "balance" in game design is pure bullshit and has no place outside out competitive multi-player gaming, it appeals to those of the most banal and unimaginative minds who need everything in the system to be 100% mathematically balanced or their brain overheats or something. No room for flavor or anything. They should all be forced to play Realms of Arkania series until they understand the concept of flavor and simulation in cRPGs.

Just so you know, this is a strawman argument. When people talk about "balance" in a single player RPG, they're not talking about PvP balance, class versus class, that kind of thing. It's more about not designing blatantly useless stats, skills, etc, that trap players.

Now, what is useless and what isn't depends on the designer's interpretation. For example, Josh Sawyer believes that any skill that doesn't help you in combat isn't useful enough. Chris Keenan disagrees with that definition of usefulness, but I can assure you he's not adding anything to Wasteland 2 that he sees as useless according to HIS definition.

Still doesn't make sense to me. This guy (see below) does not need skill to break down a door or smash a box. I dont care if he has never tried to break down a door or smash a box. I am willing to bet he can get it done. Doing it many times may help him do it FASTER in the future. He may be able to splinter the wood into finer bits. But, regardless of his experience, that door is going down.

Arnold-Schwarzenegger-Young-Photos-40.jpg

No, think outside the box. The guy isn't actually that strong. Not yet. Just like a low-level character in D&D with 18 Strength is still weak as hell and can be killed by kobolds.
 

Mantic

Educated
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
87
I think this newfangled obsession with "balance" in game design is pure bullshit and has no place outside out competitive multi-player gaming, it appeals to those of the most banal and unimaginative minds who need everything in the system to be 100% mathematically balanced or their brain overheats or something. No room for flavor or anything. They should all be forced to play Realms of Arkania series until they understand the concept of flavor and simulation in cRPGs.

Just so you know, this is a strawman argument. When people talk about "balance" in a single player RPG, they're not talking about PvP balance, class versus class, that kind of thing. It's more about not designing blatantly useless stats, skills, etc, that trap players.
And I honestly do not see the issue with skills that have limited uses, or even extremely rare uses. There's such a thing as flavor, a player could focus in more obscure utility skills and not be great in combat, what does that matter, it could result in some extremely awkward (and lethal) playthroughs in which your eccentric team of mechanics, diplomats and toaster repairers have to narrowly avoid combat and search out for that rare opportunity to level up those skills.

I think it's a proper old-school design mentality to put things into a game which might not be used much, or at all, even if they find reveal great treasures unseen to most players. It's the difference between making games for the masses, ppl who only play a game once, and hardcore players who appreciate depth.

Now, what is useless and what isn't depends on the designer's interpretation. For example, Josh Sawyer believes that any skill that doesn't help you in combat isn't useful enough. Chris Keenan disagrees with that definition of usefulness, but I can assure you he's not adding anything to Wasteland 2 that he sees as useless according to HIS definition.
Yeah well, PE is going to be banal party-based Diablo, so I couldn't care less.
 

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,017
But, regardless of his experience, that door is going down.

Arnold-Schwarzenegger-Young-Photos-40.jpg
Instead I am certain that the door will stay there unscathed, only imbeciles believe that bodybuilders are not only strong but superstrong, are you twelve years old?
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,548
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I think it's a proper old-school design mentality to put things into a game which might not be used much, or at all, even if they find reveal great treasures unseen to most players. It's the difference between making games for the masses, ppl who only play a game once, and hardcore players who appreciate depth.

OK, but I bet you there are people on this forum who are okay with skills that don't even do that. Skills that really are useless, without even rare "great treasures". If you disagree with that, then you care about balance too. You just have a different definition of it.
 

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
No, think outside the box. The guy isn't actually that strong. Not yet. Just like a low-level character in D&D with 18 Strength is still weak as hell and can be killed by kobolds.

It seems that the strength stat affects carry weight directly from what they state. So, does carry weight increase over time? There is no "Carrying" skill is there? Why does speed affect your movement rate? Why isn't there a movement skill that is capped by the speed stat? If the stats were simply "potential" or how the genetic lottery limits your character, then they shouldnt be giving ANY bonuses and should only affect skill caps. This does not seem to be how their system works, however.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
3,438
Location
Lost Hills bunker
Instead I am certain that the door will stay there unscathed, only imbeciles believe that bodybuilders are not only strong but superstrong, are you twelve years old?

Sure, maybe the primary goal of bodybuilding isn't strength, but bodybuilders such as shown in the picture are much stronger than the average person, and they do use weight progression for hypertrophy. Didn't you know Arnold competed in powerlifting and his godfather Franco Columbu was the winner of several strongman competitions? Also have you heard of Stan Efferding? He currently holds the all-time raw world powerlifting records in the 275-pound-class in the Total with and without knee wraps (/w 2,303 lbs; w/o 2,226.6 lbs) and in the Squat without knee wraps (854 lbs).

So your disdain for bodybuilders doesn't mean they aren't much stronger than you.
 

GlutenBurger

Cipher
Joined
May 8, 2010
Messages
644
Investing a ton into a skill only to have it be used a few times is silly. What would it feel like for a player to invest a bunch in a skill only to have it be used once every few hours? That would seriously make me pissed at the game, imho. Moreover, unless you metagame, what happens if you invest heavily in a skill but not enough at the right time for one of the few instances where its useful? This design is very filled with flaws and I hope they do not go this way with Torment.
It's not as big a deal when you have a party. You just distribute your chosen silly skills amongst a few members, make those characters more consistently useful in other ways, and hope the decision pays off. It's not as harsh a sacrifice as wasting points on Gambling for your single character in Fallout.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom