Community VtmB patch controversy quelled and patch reboot

[denizsi]

Is contacting Troika people, Tim Cain, Jason Anderson, Steve Moret, whoever, an option for consulting about specific fixes and additional interpretations? If so, why hasn't it been done before? If not, well, why not?

 

[Zero Credibility]

I'll see if I can find a place that would look okay...

Here's a (possibly lame) idea. Put it on one of the chandeliers - either on top of one or impaled in one of the bodies. As he shows in combat, Andrei doesn't have problems with jumping that high (and besides, how else did those bodies get there in the first place). That way the blade would be much harder to notice - not every player would remember to look up - making an inspection feat useful in finding it. And the only way for the player to reach the blade would be to shoot it down with a ranged weapon - hope he picked one up earlier in the hotel. As this isn't exactly easy to do in the middle of combat, that would also make using the blade against Andrei much less likely.

Hmmm, I don't know if I can solve that one either but thanks for the hint...

I guess one way to solve it would be to make the currently equipped armor impossible to put in the container (by disabling the "give" option for it like it is done for the light clothing). But I'm afraid I don't know how this can be done (or if it can be done at all).

Found another Heather related bug. When I find her Downtown after the ship, I tell her to leave - don't know what lines I used. And unlike the first time, when I return to my haven she isn't there and she never shows up - looks good so far. But for some reason the game behaves as if the Heather storyline is running normally - when I get a new haven from Strauss, there is a line that mentions her. And when I'm in the hotel, I get to see her die. Strange.

 

[RGE]

Also some people actually liked the placing of the Ra blade in the last patch .

Yeah, I still think your reasoning that the Mandarin could've gotten hold of it is still the best option. Even if the PC is only the second vampire he's ever dealt with, his benefactor has certainly dealt with many more, and any kind of artifact could've been acquired by someone way back when, far away in Asia or the middle east, and then passed along until it ended up in the Mandarin's possession. Doesn't seem impossible to me. Bloody Sabbat and secret cults are everywhere, aren't they? I don't see why an incompetent blowhard like Andrei would have first dibs on the blade just because the Sabbat would be the puppets of Black Hand, or whoever. (I know only the basics of the World of Darkness, so up until now I hadn't heard of the Black Hand in WoD.)

 

[Wesp5]

Here's a (possibly lame) idea. Put it on one of the chandeliers - either on top of one or impaled in one of the bodies.

I haven't thought of that and I doubt it would be possible as objects drop into the world and I would have to get it exactly right to stay on the chandelier. At the moment I placed it near the corpse at the end where Andrei appears and it looks as if he used it to carve the body up which makes sense to me.

I guess one way to solve it would be to make the currently equipped armor impossible to put in the container (by disabling the "give" option for it like it is done for the light clothing).

That's the first thing I tried and it's easy to do but I don't like the idea that you need to carry around all the clothes even with no weight limit. I'm favouring another more subtle version, namely giving heavy clothes a -1 dexterity penalty and raising that for the heavy leather too. This would be consistent and should be an easy way to stop that exploit !

Found another Heather related bug. When I find her Downtown after the ship, I tell her to leave - don't know what lines I used. And unlike the first time, when I return to my haven she isn't there and she never shows up - looks good so far. But for some reason the game behaves as if the Heather storyline is running normally

Found one missing condition and fixed it for the next release, thanks for the tip!

 

[Wesp5]

Also some people actually liked the placing of the Ra blade in the last patch .

Yeah, I still think your reasoning that the Mandarin could've gotten hold of it is still the best option.

I'm torn between both places right now but in Andrei's lair has the advantage that the blade is much nearer to the original location while the disadvantage is it's available for that fight. But then maybe it will save some characters because of that in the first place !

 

[Zero Credibility]

That's the first thing I tried and it's easy to do but I don't like the idea that you need to carry around all the clothes even with no weight limit. I'm favouring another more subtle version, namely giving heavy clothes a -1 dexterity penalty and raising that for the heavy leather too. This would be consistent and should be an easy way to stop that exploit !

I don't think that you should disable putting all the armor away (maybe only as a last resort) - only the one that is currently equipped on the character (don't know if that is possible). But I also think that making a major game balance change (such as changing the armor effects) to stop this exploit is an overkill. Sure, it's possibly game breaking, but it's also pretty obscure - I tried looking if somebody found it before me and found nothing. And in the end this won't actually prevent the exploit (who cares about dexterity when you can just blood buff it to 5 when needed), it will just cause more grief to players that accidentally get a dexterity penalty this way.

 

[Wesp5]

I don't think that you should disable putting all the armor away (maybe only as a last resort) - only the one that is currently equipped on the character (don't know if that is possible).

It is not so either it's all or nothing. So you would prefer something like this?

 

[Wesp5]

Is contacting Troika people, Tim Cain, Jason Anderson, Steve Moret, whoever, an option for consulting about specific fixes and additional interpretations? If so, why hasn't it been done before? If not, well, why not?

I wouldn't know how to reach them and as they never bothered to show any signs that they are aware of the unofficial patches I don't really think they are interrested ...

 

[Zero Credibility]

It is not so either it's all or nothing. So you would prefer something like this?

Damn. I guess it's all for me then - as I said, changing the armor effects will not prevent the exploit anyway. It will only serve to hurt the players that used it unknowingly (a quite likely scenario). Is there no alternative? Some way to remove the equipped armor effects when putting it away (similar to what happens when putting away the occult items)?

 

[denizsi]

I wouldn't know how to reach them and as they never bothered to show any signs that they are aware of the unofficial patches I don't really think they are interrested

Or maybe they are so shoved up in work, they simply aren't aware of the intricacies going on with the unofficial patches? Ask VD, Role-Player or whoever, some Codexers ought to know. At least some of them have profiles here, check the company DB.

 

[Wesp5]

Is there no alternative? Some way to remove the equipped armor effects when putting it away (similar to what happens when putting away the occult items)?

Hmmm, there may be one variable that could be the reason for this. I will check it out as soon as possible, also I noticed that you can't sell the clothes which is strange as well.

 

[Wesp5]

Or maybe they are so shoved up in work, they simply aren't aware of the intricacies going on with the unofficial patches?

That's what I would think. Also regarding the trouble with Bloodlines and Troika going under over it, with or without Valve intervention, may be reason enough to try to forget all about it...

 

[Zero Credibility]

Hmmm, there may be one variable that could be the reason for this. I will check it out as soon as possible, also I noticed that you can't sell the clothes which is strange as well.

Hope you find something. If the permanent_inventory option is the only way to fix this, then I think it would actually be better to simply call it a lost cause, rather then remove the ability to store the armor completely. Maybe doing some damage control in the form of a vague (to limit the abuse) warning in the readme file would help in preventing players from accidentally screwing up their characters.

 

[Wesp5]

If the permanent_inventory option is the only way to fix this, then I think it would actually be better to simply call it a lost cause, rather then remove the ability to store the armor completely.

I didn't find another way but I noticed that the dexterity penalty of the heavy leather wasn't set correctly according to the original description in the first place, so I'll go with the penalty solution for now.

 

[Zero Credibility]

I didn't find another way but I noticed that the dexterity penalty of the heavy leather wasn't set correctly according to the original description in the first place, so I'll go with the penalty solution for now.

So the dexterity penalty for heavy leather should be -2? Sounds excessive - it's the same as the penalty for the body armor. Maybe you should leave it as it is. The dexterity penalties for the given soak bonuses are now as they are in the P&P setting: no penalty for soak 1, -1 for 2&3 and -2 for 4.

I don't think that raising the armor dexterity penalties will help at all. It might actually make things worse. Since players will be getting a heavier dexterity penalty anyway (and the now known exploit will not be fixed at all), more of them might decide to use the exploit and simply drop the dexterity all the way to 0 to gain huge soak bonuses. And when dexterity is needed (for the occasional difficult lock), there's always blood buff.

As I said, I think it is best to leave things the way they are and just give a bug warning to prevent players from accidentally acquiring dexterity penalties. If somebody really wants to cheat, then there's nothing anybody can do to stop him anyway. Alternatives are to completely disable the storing of armor (which will certainly fix the exploit) or to disable storing of heavy clothing only (which will possibly discourage players from using the exploit without changing any armor effects).

 

[Wesp5]

So the dexterity penalty for heavy leather should be -2? Sounds excessive - it's the same as the penalty for the body armor.

It was mentioned as -2 in the original description and is indeed still stated as "hinders movement" compared to "hinders movement slightly" of light leather. But then originally it was described as offering +4 armor so the description and the effects never fitted.

Maybe you should leave it as it is. The dexterity penalties for the given soak bonuses are now as they are in the P&P setting: no penalty for soak 1, -1 for 2&3 and -2 for 4.

Now that is interesting and fits well to the original value planned for heavy leather of 4! So I'll leave this like it is and change the description instead.

disable storing of heavy clothing only (which will possibly discourage players from using the exploit without changing any armor effects).

This is a great idea I haven't thought off. I guess that will be it then...

P.S.: I checked the other armors and the original description has them all +1 which fits exactly to your PnP table without any need to make another one permanent. What do you think? Would this make the game to easy? I changed the descriptions in an earlier patch to fit the ingame values but maybe they intended it the other way round?

 

[Zero Credibility]

P.S.: I checked the other armors and the original description has them all +1 which fits exactly to your PnP table without any need to make another one permanent. What do you think? Would this make the game to easy? I changed the descriptions in an earlier patch to fit the ingame values but maybe they intended it the other way round?

Not sure I follow. I meant that the appropriate dexterity penalties for the given soak bonuses are in accordance with the P&P game now.
Heavy clothing 0 dex penalty; 1 soak bonus
Light leather -1;2
Heavy leather -1;3
Body armor -2;4
The numbers match perfectly. I was not counting light clothing as an armor as it has no gameplay effect (and it doesn't give anything in the P&P either). If the original ingame values were like this, that would be an argument for the case that the original descriptions indeed were flawed. So I think this works just right in your last patch already.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I predict hot and steamy manlove by page 20.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

I predict hot and steamy manlove by page 20.

Wait, hasn't that already happened? I haven't been paying much attention.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

It's still all foreplay.

 

[Zero Credibility]

So a few bugs get fixed as a result of this thread. Where is the problem?

 

[RGE]

He's not getting any more from Tessera, so he's feeling left out. Best way to get in on something is of course to 'casually' drop hints like that. :wink:

 

[Wesp5]

Not sure I follow. I meant that the appropriate dexterity penalties for the given soak bonuses are in accordance with the P&P game now.

Heavy clothing 0 dex penalty; 1 soak bonus
Light leather -1;2
Heavy leather -1;3
Body armor -2;4

The ingame values were like this, but the original descriptions were like that:

Heavy clothing 2 soak bonus (nothing else mentioned)
Light leather -1;3
Heavy leather -2;4
Body armor (no stats mentioned at all but the graphic is from the riot gear and that is -3;5 in the traiteffects file)

So all armors were planned to be +1 more effective with the correct PnP penalties (if mentioned) which would render the exploit useless and restore original content. For people don't liking this of course I'll include the release state armor values in the basic patch...

 

[Zero Credibility]

So all armors were planned to be +1 more effective with the correct PnP penalties (if mentioned) which would render the exploit useless and restore original content. For people don't liking this of course I'll include the release state armor values in the basic patch...

Good news about the release of the basic patch. To be honest, I must put myself in the "doesn't like this" group.

Either by accident or design, the original armor effects were in complete accordance with the P&P armor effects, and the descriptions are not in the case of heavy clothing. Also, the armor is clearly divided in groups both by name and by the original effects - clothing (both no dex penalty), leather (both -1) and body armor - coincidental or not?

And besides that, I think that the game is not challenging enough as it is (with the exception of a few places like the zombie graveyard and the werewolf encounter). Improving the armor soaks would make combat even easier, and the dexterity penalty is largely irrelevant in the gameplay anyway (player can use blood buff or simply take the armor off when lockpicking or sneaking). And I'm not sure it was planned that way either. It is just as possible that playtesting (what little there was) the game showed that the armor was overpowered and they just never changed the descriptions. In any case, the fact that all the armors were effected so shows that this is not a simple mistake.

As for the exploit, as I said unfortunately nothing short of completely disabling the storing of armor will make it go away. So what if the character's dexterity hits 0? It is only used for lockpicking (and that's what the vastly overpowered blood buff is for) and sneaking (unnecessary when you are practically immune to damage, and if you do need it there's always blood buff).

 

[Wesp5]

Also, the armor is clearly divided in groups both by name and by the original effects - clothing (both no dex penalty), leather (both -1) and body armor - coincidental or not?

Looking at it that way seems to make sense, but the original descriptions state otherwise and so it's three files pointing in one direction and only one in the other. Did they really get three files wrong or just one?

It is just as possible that playtesting (what little there was) the game showed that the armor was overpowered and they just never changed the descriptions. In any case, the fact that all the armors were effected so shows that this is not a simple mistake.

Normally if things were changed during playtesting the old values were retained with some remarks in the files. There is nothing there in case of the armors as if the guy doing the effects did a simple 1,2,3,4 row while the one doing the descriptions did a 2,3,4,5 row. Are there any official infos from the WoD what armor class e.g. light leather has?