Marsal
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2006
- Messages
- 1,304
What mechanics have been shown, bro? You finally recognize the problem? Except for one video, which was released quite recently, all we had the "pleasure" of seeing is some amateurish artwork and UI. Are you seriously telling me that pretty much every piece of "art" hasn't been laughably bad? From "dinosaur lady" to "crayon UI" it's all garbage. Post a single decent piece of DS artwork. Please. I fucking dare you. Can you even imagine how horrible the rest of it is, when what little they show to public is that bad?
Oh, and gameplay shown in that video is also embarrassingly bad both from design and technical perspective. Honestly, I'd be surprised they released that video at all, had I not seen the concept art. It's obvious their sense of good gameplay and aesthetics is way off. AoD is easily better in every way. Yeah, DS is that bad. :boom:
Let's go into double OT and settle this martyr complex you have going on. I've bitched (I'd call it giving high information value feedback, but bitching does have a nice ring to it) about AoD's mechanics, because you put couple of demos out. You have only yourself to thank. Here's how it went down and feel free to dig through my posting history (as if you need encouragement) to confirm. Seriously, you should be working for NSA, bro. You're wasting your talents making third rate RPGs. I'm on a roll!
I was pleasantly surprised at the combat demo and had some positive comments along with some suggestions. It was a solid foundation to build upon. As you kept putting out "improved" demos/betas/whatever it became more and more evident that you either have no idea what you're doing or that your concept of RPG is, in a word, dumb. Cue the "bitching".
Which part of the following is inaccurate/false/lie/slander/character assassination ("it's shit, but other games have done this too" is not a valid comeback):
Combat is static, repetitive and too random for a single character RPG (and I love RNG and think it adds greatly to games if used correctly).
Character system is too complicated for what it is (not complex, complicated). Synergies are "inelegant" (some kind of skill hierarchy, with cumulative improvement would be better).
Dialogue mini games are not engaging enough to be the main attraction, with binary checks and sudden death mode (yes, spitting in king's face in his court should be an instant death, failing a charisma check while trying to get paid more should maybe cost you only an arm... ok and a leg).
It feels like a big chunk of the game is missing (sneaking,
You built your game around save/load functionality and use it as a crutch for failed design, when it should be only used as a convenience for the player.
You've surely noticed I mentioned your writing only in context of too much profanity/edginess (entirely subjective and not relevant). That's because I can't complain about the writing/characters/setting/quests. All is, if not great, at least better than most RPGs have to offer. I see no need to participate in the circlejerk that serves only to further steer you away from the real problems the game has (sup likaq), just to mask my "bitching".
And here you can see why we disagree. Even though you do have interesting and potentially engaging writing/characters/setting/quests, your game on the whole is just not good. I'd liken it to Alpha Protocol. Very interesting quest structure/C&C, high replayability, good ideas, original setting (for an RPG), decent writing, mediocre graphics, shit gameplay and character system, overall... good for what it is? And that's not good enough for a game that's supposed to be a "hardcore RPG". I don't accept a disjointed collection of game mechanics, when I had been promised an RPG.
Does that settle the whole bitching thing? Can you accept the criticism like man or are you a fish?
This is getting a little repetitive... Let me change my approach.
Sure you could use Unity. There is a difference in using an engine/having access to source code/writing your own engine. Deciding to write your own engine is in most cases a stupid choice. However, if you take into account that he already wrote the engine and it seems to be a good engine, things change. You underestimate the overlap in skills between what he has and what he has yet to implement. Is it possible that he'll fuck it up? Sure, I'd even say it's probable. It'll probably end up like SR:R. Shit game, good engine. Mods will fix it and sequels should greatly expand and improve the game. And I think that's acceptable worst case scenario.
DS is going to have good writing, shit everything else. No mods will fix it, it will forever stay shit. Follow up games will have no base to be built upon. Everything will have to be scrapped.
Bro, don't go there. If you can't make a prototype with a fully featured RPG engine in 3 years, WTF are you doing making a game at all? It either means that the engine is shit and/or that the people working on the game are shit. And you claim your engine is fine.
But, let's just go with your theory: lack of time. Working full time should quintuple the development speed? Let's make it sextuple, I'm feeling generous today. So if it takes 3 years to produce almost nothing working part time, the game will be completed... on Thursday? Math checks out! I guess you were right all along! My bad!
On the subject of AoD, you do know you wasted all that time switching engines, building a 3D world and prettifying the graphics? Not only wasted, but I actually think it works against your design philosophy (or at least the current state of AoD). Teleporting and environmental interaction would be way less of an issue if there was no world to want to explore and walk in. And I'm the graphics whore here...
SG: "I must see everything!"
DS: "I don't need to see anything, some static is fine. Keep up the good work!"
The problem is you value bullshitting over technical expertise. Not surprising, but needless to say I disagree.
I don't think you're lots of things, but dumb isn't one of them. It's not really a question of what I think, there is quite a lot of evidence that you are far from dumb. I do think you are not qualified to judge everything and your opinion is invalid in same cases.
[Seriously, although I enjoy "bitching" about AoD, I don't hate you or your game. Your persistence is admirable. Of course, so is Cleve's. If you want me to stop bitching at you, but ignoring me is tabu, just say the word, I'll never reply to you again.]
What's not as easy as YOU think is implementing all that stuff he did show. That is his "collateral" that offers a guarantee he has the skills to deliver other elements.
DS has no such thing. There is no design document, no evidence of 3 years of work. You could say that Mistsodas' careers are a guarantee, but what have they exactly accomplished? This is not a rhetorical question. I love VTM:B, a great game. Just finished Tremere playthrough. But Mitsoda was only a writer/voice actor(?) AFAIK. He did a great job, but he wasn't exactly a project lead. Apparently these days you can't trust the very best RPG writer to even play a TB RPG, let alone design one.
Why do you keep repeating "good graphics" as if it was synonymous with a good engine? A graphics engine is only a part of a game engine. You know this! You make games for a living. I'm all for quote battles and "augmenting" your arguments, but this is getting a little old, bro. Mix it up a bit!
You do realize that my point is that DS didn't show anything AT ALL. Something beats nothing. Why are you convinced Mitsoda is a good designer? Because he said so? What has he designed? Until design is implemented, it's just empty talk.
Not everyone shares your thirst for digging through obscure forums, VD. So he blogged about his game? Who gives a shit! I'm not a DS scholar. There was never a cohesive vision expressed in a form of a design document, that would make me believe his talk was anything but empty. Let's stop pretending DS Kickstarter was anything but a quick cash grab. You feel obligated to defend your pals, but we both know the game was on its death bed when Kickstarter suddenly came crashing in with a defibrillator.
"Good" game design is not something you can conjure via mental acrobatics. It's a journey, not a destination
You can't always predict how different mechanics interact. "Standing on the shoulders of giants" helps, but you need to iterate, tweaking and cutting features to approach your ideal design goal. The faster you iterate, faster you converge. Knowing your engine and being a capable programmer => very conductive to good design.So hardcore RPGs are the ones with numbers? Diablo 3, the most hardcore of them all! Just kidding, but that's how your arguments usually go (You criticize graphics, you graphics whore! Repeat 10x so it can sink in.).
I don't really see a problem with SG being an "action RPG" (I guess that's every RPG with RT combat?). I'd actually like to play a good action RPG, with decent exploration and non click-click-click combat for a change. After all, Dark Souls is a good game, if we disregard the whole porting to PC fiasco.
You omitted to answer what hardcore RPGs were made on Torque 3D, that you decided to use it? Just an oversight, I'm sure. A second chance!
Depends on the licence. A year to learn Torque? So your team has complete mastery of your engine by now? Really? Maybe you should make them apply their skills to AoD? :boom:
What makes you think he needs years? How did you arrive to that conclusion? At least he already saved "a year" for learning the engine and he can iterate on the design faster than DS guys can.
OMG! Me too! Did we just become best friends?!
And the best thing is I've got loads of them left! It really speaks volumes about the majesty of your creation, that I'd have so much ammo left after "bitching" for so long!
