Interview Van Buren corpse robbing with Sean over at DAC

[Crazy Tuvok]

fallout is more suited to winding up on a spacestation than it is to revisiting the den.

Just because FO is more suited to a Spacestation than DnD does not make it a good idea. As there were no spacestations before the War in the FO universe than obviously it was built afterwards. Imagine the tech involved in undertaking a project like construction launch and upkeep of a spacestation. In the real world now in the 21st century it is a massive international effort to construct and maintain the crummy (by gaming and sci-fi standards) little ISS with our tech. Therefore the tech in FO3 would have had to be quite impressive; at least as good as our current tech and probably beyond it.

Now however we are no longer talking about FO but about a sci-fi RPG. Great idea, lord knows the market is dying for a good sci-fi RPG, but FO is supposed to be about survival in a post-apoc world, which by defintion should not include certain sci-fi elements.

Should settings change and and designers challenge us? Sure, but not for the sake of "hey this is new, we have never had this in an FO game let's throw it in - consistency or setting appropriateness be damned" . I sure wouldn't want to see pulse rifles and robots in my DnD.

I can assure you what my reaction would have been to finding out that there is a space station I can go visit in FO3 - what the fuck is this piece of shit idea?!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

no cars, one car, five cars... each game does happen close to eighty years after the previous installment though. god forbid the game world evolve. i've never seen a human adapt and overcome, either. in two hundred years, america went from being a piss-poor colony of the british to the biggest badasses on the block. to say that the people in fallout's universe would have done any less is a disservice to the species.

Humans don't tend to overcome much after some major catestrophe that wipes out civilization. Check how long the dark ages lasted after the Roman Empire fell apart.

 

[Briosafreak]

As there were no spacestations before the War in the FO universe

No, it was from before the war, please read my posts with details on it before making assumptions.

I can assure you what my reaction would have been to finding out that there is a space station I can go visit in FO3 - what the fuck is this piece of shit idea?!

By that time you would see that it fitted perfectly on the story, so i don´t think you would say that. Even if you don`t agree remember Tim Cains words:

The fan base is great in keeping you true to the spirit of the work. Some of them spend more time thinking about the “rules of the Fallout universe” that we do. But sometimes, this can be a bad thing, especially when someone wants to change something and the fans hate it just because it is a change. Not everything in the first Fallout games was intended to be canon. There must be room for some innovation, as long as it is true to the spirit of the original games, if not the letter.

 

[mr. lamat]

Humans don't tend to overcome much after some major catestrophe that wipes out civilization. Check how long the dark ages lasted after the Roman Empire fell apart.

they still used the aqueducts and roads. they still made iron armour. that was some hi-tech gear, back in the day, so to speak.

were the dark ages 'dark' due to the fall of the roman empire, or a fascist theocracy that was directly opposed to anything new? probably somewhere in between.

it's kind of kicking a dead horse, but i think the idea was fresh, intruiging and most certainly fit the setting. we don't know how it was introduced, nor how it placed into the game world. you can't really say it doesn't work, or 'what the fuck is this piece of shit idea?!' (the latter cuz it makes you sound like a shortbus frequent rider).

just because it isn't a shade of brown doesn't mean it's not fallout.

 

[plin]

OM NOT CANON AS< ,aS<<DFJSDJFJGGJGJGJGJ

NOT CANOnNNNNNNAAAAAAAA
WO

 

[errorcode]

i think plin just popped.

 

[undead dolphin hacker]

Oh no. A dead, rotting game you'll never, ever, EVER get to play might have had more than one working car in it (note that this game series included "Laser Gattling Guns" and "Stealthboys," aka cloaking devices... but god forbid over 80 years after the Vault Dweller left V13 that someone found a working car, or at least one that only needed minor repairs).

SH!T BONERZ THOS GUYS R DUM!!!!1111 LEWL FO3 U SUX. ROOFLES.

Is this really what passes for news at RPG Codex nowadays? That's so fucking sad.

 

[manco]

no cars, one car, five cars... each game does happen close to eighty years after the previous installment though. god forbid the game world evolve. i've never seen a human adapt and overcome, either. in two hundred years, america went from being a piss-poor colony of the british to the biggest badasses on the block. to say that the people in fallout's universe would have done any less is a disservice to the species.

Humans don't tend to overcome much after some major catestrophe that wipes out civilization. Check how long the dark ages lasted after the Roman Empire fell apart.

Well, if we ae getting nitpiky, an full on "money shot" atomic war wouldn't be a major catestrophe, it would be the end of mankind. We wouldn't be crawling out of vaults in 80 or 100 years. The radiation would see to that.
That's why I'm always curious about selective arguements when refering to, say, fallout.
Like, I will buy that people can survive more than 2 days outside the vaults, I buy that people can make power armor, I buy that ghouls and mutants roam the wastes, not cancer infested husks of the dead. BUT NO CARS DOOD!
Fallout 1 and 2 were glorious, intresting, and far fetched games. The atmosphere, art direction, sound design, packaging (50's ahoy) and wonderful writing made us enjoy, and buy, the far fetched post apoc setting. This is partly because we have seen many cool movies from the 80's, as well as a then fresh 50's nostalgia creeping into our noggins from the moment the intro movie played.
So, we bought it, lapped it up like so much thirsty ponys.
But, out of context, if told about one or two sections of fallout 1 and 2, would we have accepted so throughly?
"Well, there's a ghoul dood with a plant on his head. A zombie town with a totally bad ass church, a kung fu town, robot armor, and slaves!".
The whole point of a game is to enjoy it, and I fear one problem of the internet's (and more importantly, RPG codex's) game coverage, is that I learn so much about upcoming games, that I go into them with a predisposition to metagame. IE: if van buren really were coming out as planned, I would need a few points in science/repair, cause I know there's cars, and a space station to come.
Oops, that's not where I was gonna take this.
I meant to say, sci fi games are fucking weird, and the only reason we accept all the crazy shit in FO, was because it was sold/told to us so well. Why not trust the devs to sell us these new ideas as well, instead of jumping on them out of context?
Again, using fallout3 pre bethesda as an example, there could be cues amping us up to space from the intro movie. Perhaps the bloodred horizon being peirced by a falling star (in the bg, not too obvious)? Later, an odd reference, read on the pipboy or two setting up the possibility? A crazy old ghoul telling tales?
What I mean, is if the story tells it right, we will buy anything. But when jaded early, perhaps 2 years before even touching the game, the thril of discovery is tainted by the expectations we have set up from internet coverage.
I played fallout all the way thru, back when my internet was used for email and porn. I had no idea about dogmeat, and needless to say the last encounter/area. I wonder if I dug it more because I went in blind?
Debating anything about games in preproduction is risky at best, as happy or not with what's coming, you know it's coming.
Sorry, I broke the internet with this long ass post!
(and I do read gaming sites like gangbusters, I just wish I didn't sometimes, so I could be astonished by a game, instead of "hrmph, that barely met my 2 year old expectations that I formed from screenshots and spoilers")

 

[almondblight]

Eh, I understand that it's possible for people to rebuild. In 160+ years, they could probably rebuild a lot too. The thing is, having a car, especially having 5 (well, 3 and a train and bike), for one person, and being able to use it, means that humanity has rebuilt a certain amount, much more than has been seen in the previous games. And don't get me wrong, it would be interesting to have a post-post-nuclear adventure, to see how humanity has rebuilt. But then you get kinda far from the feeling of Fallout, which is humanity as seperate and small groups still trying to piece things back together.

Now if you don't have the degree of civilization as mentioned above, as i believe they say van buren didn't, having a car is kinda jarring, none the less having 5. Somehow the player can find cars from all over the place, find equipment to put them together, find fuel and maintain the cars, yet bullets are scarce? If the player can find 5, wouldn't we assume that other people could find at least one, and set up stable trade routes? And if cars are so easy to find, how about guns? I would bank good money that you would see gunsmithing advance well before you saw auto mechanics make a comeback. And the materials needed for bullets are gonna be a lot simpler than those needed to fuel and mantain a car. No matter what universe we can argue about Van Buren being in, it should at least stay true to it's own. It bothers me that we have "In all this time, OF COURSE people would be able to put together cars, it'd be crazy to think they wouldn't have been able to...well, the player at least would, but no one else would have in the 160 years...but the player could because he is skilled enough in science...but not enough to make bullets, and neither is anyone else..." The whole thing doesn't seem to flow well, it seems to be more of a cool gimmick attached to a game world already there.

The other problem with a car and a space station and rockets is it sort of breaks the whole "you're wandering through the vast wasteland after the end of the world" thing. In the first game you felt really small, and the world seemed to be a vast unknown. At the point where you are cruising around and flying into space, the desert stops seeming so large and mysterious, and the world starts feeling a whole lot more civilized.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Oh yeah, this interview is gold. Pure shiney gold.

Space stations? There are space stations in orbit right now; in the 73 years between now and the bombs dropping you'd think that there would be continued research in space exploration and habitation

Well gee... Not really, no. Given that our timeline != Fallout's timeline. I think that's fairly apparent.

specially as modern rockets don't even use petroleum fuel so the gas crisis of the mid-21st century wouldn't even apply to them (other than the need for petroleum to make plastics and such, which can be made from recycled plastics quite easily)

See! Why even bother having a Great War all over resources? Oil!? PAH! We don't need that! Uranium? PAH! No need for that either. These numbchuckles need to go back through Fallout and read all the clues about the whys, wheres and hows of the Great War. Watch the intro. *Listen* to the intro. That's the reason people aren't flying into space or driving around in cars.

What's the point in having a resource war if you've still got plenty of resources?

 

[Jinxed]

What's the point in having a resource war if you've still got plenty of resources?

America recently went to war in Iraq because of weapons of ASS destrucion, did they find any?

I think discussion about wether a car would be in FO or not isn't a killer. I would worry about many other things that could be much, much worse. But then again, from the info we got:

Prison with robotz + working railway system + Dune buggy + Space Station + DON'T WORRY, IT WOULD ALL WORK TOGETHER WITH THE SETTING AND STORY!! = Fo 3

 

[Human Shield]

Once all these factions started pulling tech out their asses in Fallout 2, things went downhill. It could make sense if they found new sources of materials but every where was mostly fried in Fallout 1. Chinese sub crew builds a science lab and supercomputer from ruined city. Sandy Sands builds force fields from adobe huts. Where the fuck did they get everything. Vault city can be justified, if it was the only high-tech place things would be more interesting. NCR should have been a more organized HUB, San Fan should have been a more controlled LA Boneyards.

Post-apoc settings should advance into more control from collected groups, not higher quality of life and magical increase in resources.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Humans don't tend to overcome much after some major catestrophe that wipes out civilization. Check how long the dark ages lasted after the Roman Empire fell apart.

they still used the aqueducts and roads. they still made iron armour. that was some hi-tech gear, back in the day, so to speak.

The aqueducts fell in to ruin because no one knew how to maintain them or make knew ones. The development of roads pretty much stopped, and most places in Europe didn't have any. Most roads crumbled and were reclaimed by nature.

Blacksmithing remained, sure, but astronomy, mathematics, physics, and most everything else disappeared. The only scholars at the time were cloistered up monks who only knew what they did because they were translating and preserving the old Greek and Roman texts.

were the dark ages 'dark' due to the fall of the roman empire, or a fascist theocracy that was directly opposed to anything new? probably somewhere in between.

The "fascist theocracy" is the only reason we have a lot of that stuff. In fact, it was the "fascist theocracy" that actually started promoting the development of math and science again. Even Gallileo was funded by the Church, and the Church's head of science agreed he was right about Earth not being the center of all things. Of course, that Pope died, and a new Pope came to power that decided Gallileo was wrong and decided to fund Tycho Brahe's model of the solar system instead of Copernicus's continuation of Gallileo's work.

 

[mr. lamat]

no offense, but gallileo wasn't born until the mid 1500's. that's about 300-500 years after the dark ages, and i'm being generous with the timeframe. i won't deny that specific orders of cloistered monks were deeply involved in recording and expanding the knowledge of greek and roman schools. there's a great book called 'how the irish saved civilization' on the subject... well, maybe not great, but i'm biased.

we're talking about dirty, powerhungry dark ages christianity... when the churches became so fabulously rich. instead of rebuilding those aqueducts (some of which were still in constant use up til this century) money and workforces were diverted into building churches and new houses for their lords.

wow... fucking proper thread derailment, hoss :D

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

The fact that Gallileo was around after what you call the dark ages is rather meaningless, since it took all that time to figure out, yet again, something as simple as the earth wasn't the center of everything. Heck, it wasn't until Columbus in 1492 that civilization knew the Earth was round, something the Greeks knew and even calculated the circumference of the Earth. All that because some nasty Germanic folks pillaged an Empire's capitol, which is a lot less severe than a global nuking.

 

[Briosafreak]

Er nope it was with Vasco da Gama trip to India actually.

 

[mr. lamat]

the greeks didn't prove the earth was round, it was a theory. a theory that wound up being varified some... 2000 years later.

look at the distribution of knowledge and how it was applied throughout most of the dark and middle ages (current accepted use of the term 'dark ages' refers to the period of the fall of rome, 496 ad and the invasion of england in 1066). if you wanted a bridge built, you hired a monk. if you wanted a castle built, you hired a monk. this is how the early christian church became so powerful, they sold the knowledge of greek and roman stone building techniques, which were the main resource of most orders. this was closely guarded, hi-tech information, not unlike the brotherhood of steel to draw a comparison. top secret, but still wound up proliferating across europe. copied and knocked-off again and again by the peseants and nobles who watched how these stone structures were built.

even with attempts to hold these secrets close to the vest, this technology spread like wildfire. towards the end of the dark ages, stone had replaced wood in most parts of the continent for bridge building and even the most minor of lord had ditched the moat and bailey for a new stone keep.

that's four hundred years between the destruction of the roman empire to massive improvement and continent wide dispersion of their technology.

 

[AlanC9]

The aqueducts fell in to ruin because no one knew how to maintain them or make knew ones. The development of roads pretty much stopped, and most places in Europe didn't have any. Most roads crumbled and were reclaimed by nature.

Blacksmithing remained, sure, but astronomy, mathematics, physics, and most everything else disappeared. The only scholars at the time were cloistered up monks who only knew what they did because they were translating and preserving the old Greek and Roman texts.

So theoretical science more or less collapsed, as did porjects requireing large-scale organization. But other technologies did quite well in the Dark Ages. Agriculture, for instance, did much better, probably because Roman society didn't exactly reward improvements in that area.

I don't know what this implies for a post-apocalyptic world. Presumably gunpowder weapon production would be easy enough to resume. I don't see how you manufacture micro fusion cells without a fairly well-established industrial base, or at least an operating nuclear reactor (power's gotta come from someplace before you put it in the cell). As for other kinds of manufacture, at some point you hit a division-of-labor problem. Manufacturing something like Power Armor or a Vertibird would require an awful lot of different functioning industries.

Even Gallileo was funded by the Church, and the Church's head of science agreed he was right about Earth not being the center of all things. Of course, that Pope died, and a new Pope came to power that decided Gallileo was wrong and decided to fund Tycho Brahe's model of the solar system instead of Copernicus's continuation of Gallileo's work.

Which wasn't an unreasonable position, considering Brahe hadn't been able to pick up any evidence of stellar parallax. If he had had better instruments, maybe the whole sorry business of trying Galileo could have been avoided.

 

[JJ86]

Maybe a car can be kept working for over a hundred years given a machine shop to fabricate parts. But how in the hell do you keep steel belted radials and any other rubber hose, belt, etc operable for that time period? The contiguos US has no rubber plantations as a base resource to manufacture tires. And even if they did, could even a genious mechanic make a tire?

There is only so much you can do without the manufacturing might of civilized society. Basic survival concerns overtake the R&D and extensive network of industries which allow for advanced technologies to exist. In the early years of America, colonies regularly disappeared because they could'nt sustain a surplus food supply in a harsh environment. We take for granted the most basic industries which support our societies but the manufacture of anything is dependent on refined oil, mined minerals, and a host of other products which must be continuously replaced. Operating a large scale power plant necessary to enable any production facility is a difficult, specialized operation which cannot happen in a PA society. Once civilization is interrupted by a devastating, long-term problem, there will be some dark times for a quite a long time. It's a sad fact.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

the greeks didn't prove the earth was round, it was a theory. a theory that wound up being varified some... 2000 years later.

Since the thread has been derailed anyway.

The Greeks absolutely *did prove* the earth was round. It was a mathematical proof not the experiental one of the later day explorers. And when it come down to it the mathematical proof is not only all you need, but immeasurably more reliable.

FO as DU states, is set in an alternate timeline and tho that gives you latitude, there must still be internal consistency. Just becasue FO is a sci-fi setting that does not make it a dumping ground for every sci-fi convention. Or it shouldn't.

My problems with there having been a spacestation are less practical (as in would this have been possible knowing what we know about spacesations and their development and upkeep) tho these still undermine the notion entirely, and more that it does not jive with me for a post-apoc/FO setting. This is not resistance to change because all change is bad nor is it blind adherence to canon (as if there is even such a thing as a coherent FO canon) as many like to trot out whenever FO discussions ensue. Most objections to the radical changes proposed for new FO games are attacked not because they are radical but because they are bad.

Think of the operation involved in an endeavor such as a spacestation in its upkeep alone. (Brios my bad for missing the bit that the station was built before the War) The organization/tech necessary is impressive enough that the Wasteland is truly disappearing. This may make a cool game but I like FO to be a the stuggle for survival in a post-apoc world, not the struggle to play SimCiity/Civ in a post apoc world. Again, maybe cool games, just not FO.

Mr. Lamat - didn't mean to set off your apparently delicately tuned sensibilities with my coarse language. A thousand pardons. You are right. I should follow your example as the ad hominen makes you sound like a fuck...oops I mean a freak..oops I mean a genius.

 

[Spazmo]

JJ, the point here is that yeah, most of those rubber bits are gone, but you manage to find just four vehicles where those parts have survived. Looking through four states, it's not so implausible.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

It is if you think the rubber would still be good <3

 

[mr. lamat]

The Greeks absolutely *did prove* the earth was round.

you can use theoretical math to prove that an elephant can walk a 16 guage wire tight-rope. it's voodoo, hoss. they proved the theory. without objective evidence, other than a long equation, it's just a bunch of numbers that only make sense from a subjective viewpoint.

what's with the name calling? why are you so hostile? you don't 'set me off', you're just a dood who thinks he knows more about how a gameworld should function that the people who worked on it. you think you know more about a story, without having read it, than the people who wrote it. granted, that's not uncommon behaviour around this degobah of the interweb, but this antagonistic attitude you've taken in regards to me is really something you should be working on in therapy. don't let the interweb people inspire real emotions in your life and you'll be a happier person for it.

:group hug:

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

The Greeks absolutely *did prove* the earth was round.

you can use theoretical math to prove that an elephant can walk a 16 guage wire tight-rope. it's voodoo, hoss. they proved the theory. without objective evidence, other than a long equation, it's just a bunch of numbers that only make sense from a subjective viewpoint.

Artisotle knew the Earth was round by astronomical events, the round shadow of the Earth on a moon during an eclipse and star charts from Egypt differing from those in Greece. Those two combined indicate a spheriod Earth.

Eratosthenes actually computed the diameter of the earth, which was pretty close considering the tools used. He took two wells in two cities and measured the angles of the shadows at the same time. He then estimated that the degree arc along the surface was 7.2 degrees, and the diameter was 250,000 stadia.

Neither of those is math theory. It's observation, measurement, and calculation.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

you can use theoretical math to prove that an elephant can walk a 16 guage wire tight-rope. it's voodoo, hoss. they proved the theory. without objective evidence, other than a long equation, it's just a bunch of numbers that only make sense from a subjective viewpoint.

Mathematics is neither subjective nor voodoo. It is the *only* heuristic that gurantees truth. If a theory or worldview contradicts the laws of math it is not just another subjective interpretation of the universe, it is wrong. There is no possible world in which the laws of mathematics do not apply. And contrary to your statement the beauty of mathematics is that it make sense from an *objective* point of view. No matter one's bias or predisposition the math stands. It can be proven or disproven by *anyone* irrespective of what they may want the outcome to be. This is why *properly done* mathematics is the best tool to understand what is, it is utterly immune to prejudice.

you're just a dood who thinks he knows more about how a gameworld should function that the people who worked on it. you think you know more about a story, without having read it, than the people who wrote it.

So because the devs had an idea and they are designing the game that makes the idea a good one?! I don't think I know more about the stroy than the people writing it, that would of course be impossible. But their working on it does not shield them from criticism nor does it ensure that all of their ideas are good ones. So far we have the ad hominem and now the appeal to authority. Throw a littlle circular reasoning in and we can call this session of Fallacies 101 closed.