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Fallout Underwhelmed by Fallout :(

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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The problem with Fallout 1's devoted fan around here is that it's a cult thing to them. They will never ever accept to lower their devotion to it. No matter the analysis, no matter the deep thinks. It's a semi-religious thing to them.

And precise of it that they will never ever accept that Fallout 2 is better than F1, that Fallout 2 build on the foundation that F1 set, build it better, build it well, polish the faults of F1.

That's why the blandness, the scarcity of quests, of things to do in F1, to them, is the tight focus of story. Bitch please~
So why do so many people prefer FO1 to FO2 or downright dislike FO2? Because they want to be cool and edgy?

I couldn't wait to get my hands in Fallout 2. I expected it to be bigger and better (turned out it's bigger, WAY bigger, but not better). For me the magic of Fallout, the magic that set it apart from generic fantasy RPGs was in its setting. Coincidentally, it was the setting that ruined Fallout 2 for me. It was disjointed and disconnected. What's worse is that it shat all over Fallout's much more coherent and focused setting, starting with the gangster town and ending with "it was a social experiment lol!"

Why LA's chinatown? Because most of the survivors there is Chinamen, and you know that chinamen build chinatowns everywhere they live outside of China, with Kung Fu clubs/dojo in them.
:that's wacist:

Why Scientologistic town? Because the cult survived.
But would it survive after a war that wiped out almost everyone? Would it have the same influence it once had? It's easy to brainwash decadent people looking for meaning and using celebrities to influence them. It's much harder (if not impossible) to do it when the world fell apart and looking for meaning is no longer a top priority.

Why gangster town? Because the gangster culture is steeped in Yankees. IT's a thing call cultural heritage. If they are no longer pressed by survival as in F1, they will build the cultural heavens that their mothers told them in cradle.
Yeah, I can see it. A bunch of rednecks gathers 'round and start wondering which of many cultural paradigms they should recreate. A cowboy town with gunslingers and whores? Nah, westerns are dead (even though it would fit the setting much better). A city dedicated to the American Imperialism? It's sorta the Enclave thing, plus they have that president douche and all. How about gangsters? With the hats and the suits and the guns and the toothpicks. Everyone loves gangsters!

But F1 fans will close their eyes and ears about all that. They refuse to see the greatness of F2, because to acknowledge it is to acknowledge its greater status than 1. I frankly give up on convincing fanatics a long time ago. Ranting like this is just a way to check if my old assumtion is still true or not.
What a great closing argument. Where did I hear it before? The Codex refuses to see the greatness of NWN/Oblivion/Mass Effect/etc because to acknowledge it is to acknowledge its greater status than Fallout/Arcanum/Planescape, etc. I mean, there is absolutely no way that people who like X more than Y have a legitimate reason for that or at least different preferences. Fanatics, all of them.
 

Grim Monk

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How about gangsters? With the hats and the suits and the guns and the toothpicks. Everyone loves gangsters!

Did you fail to read what I & laclongquan just posted about New Reno?

Also:
You know what this "Fall of the Roman Empire" game really needs...
crossbow_zps1691f3d8.jpg


..................

:troll:
 
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felipepepe

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But would it survive after a war that wiped out almost everyone? Would it have the same influence it once had? It's easy to brainwash decadent people looking for meaning and using celebrities to influence them. It's much harder (if not impossible) to do it when the world fell apart and looking for meaning is no longer a top priority.
Here I must disagree. The apocalypse happened a while by them, so people in Fallout manage to survive well enough, but they have no prospects for the future. More than meaning, they want hope. In a scenario like this would be very easy to promise them an easy solution: SPAAAAACE!

Of course, would be way cooler if it was just a ruse, con artists preying on post-apoc fedora-wearing atheists... having an actual spaceship does kill the charm.

And a Italian mafia system (the "family" part, not the shady business) would work well enough, its just the silly suits, tommy guns & casinos that make them ridiculous.
 
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Grim Monk

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Here I must disagree. The apocalypse happened a while by them, so people in Fallout manage to survive well enough, but they have no prospects for the future. More than meaning, they want hope. In a scenario like this would be very easy to promise them an easy solution: SPAAAAACE!

And a Italian mafia system (the "family" part, not the shady business) would work well enough, its just the silly suits, tommy guns & casinos that make them ridiculous.

"Gizmos Casino" & the "Maltese Falcon" in Fallout 1.
Truly "Casinos" are a fundamental violation of the fallout lore & canon...

The buildings New Reno are prewar leftovers (since the city apparently wasn't directly nuked), why not use them?

SIX "silly suit & tommy gun" dudes for the entire city, as an attraction to draw in Casino customers...
Does Gizmos "9mm Mauser" also ruin Fallout 1?
 
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Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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What I never got are all these complaints about New Reno being horribly unrealistic...

Its a “Vice Provider”, it peddles “drugs”, “sex”, “alcohol” to other waste communities.
Plenty examples of such in the real world (ever heard of Narco Economies)...
Narco Economy is a developed world thing. It wouldn't exist without it.

NCR is stated to have a population around 700,000 people, you really think there is no economic basis for “Providing Vice”.
Not bad, eh? From a shitty little village to 700,000 people in 80 years. They were gaining roughly 10,000 people a year. Not only they managed to feed and employ them all but they also managed to build a huge city with laser gates and invent Gauss technology.

Give them another 80 years and nobody would even remember there was a war once. Why? Because America Fuck Yeah! Not even a nuclear Armageddon can stop it, only set it back by a few years.

Even in the Fallout 1 time period you had bars, prostitutes, and gambling.
The issue is the scale.

“OMG PORN STUDIOS”
Porn is a long standing part of the “Vice Economy”, and has been produced for ages.
You use Vice Economy as an excuse, even though a post-apoc world would have very different needs and economies. There is a reason why visiting whores was a very popular and common pastime in the wild west and porn (as in producing sexual images and movies for monetary gain) didn't develop until the Victorian era. The social prerequisites simply didn't exist before that and wouldn't exist in a post-apoc society with cheap and socially acceptable sex with whores or sex as payment. Imagine asking a man who's about to hit a brothel to have his dick sucked for a couple of coins if he'd rather watch a shitty porno on some dusty old screen and jerk off.

"Tommy Guns"
IIRC, you had only like 6 dudes with Tommy Guns in the whole of New Reno.
The four bouncers at the "Shark Club", and two bouncers at the "Desperado".
Everybody else was armed with regular guns you find out in the Wastes...
I'd buy that a Casino might arm its Doorman/Bouncers with exotic weapon, its "flashy" and "draws attention".
Good to stand out in front of potential customers.
(Also, how and why did Gizmo own :? a Mauser in Fallout 1?)
It's the whole thing. The clone casino bouncers wearing suits, hats, and armed with tommy guns. It becomes a theme (park) not an isolated thing where you have some thug with an old tommy gun. Gizmo's mauser is a thing. He isn't dressed as a WW1 German officer in a "ze Germans are coming" theme park.

Did you fail to read what I & laclongquan just posted about New Reno?

Also:
You know what this "Fall of the Roman Empire" game really needs...
crossbow_zps1691f3d8.jpg
Except for it's not a fall of Rome game and it's a modified "gun" shooting crossbow bolts not lasers. The icon does look like a futuristic gun for which I apologize. We'll tweak it later if we have time.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The music I'm hearing in my head while reading this thread:



Don't fight it, revel in it. :dance:

Before this thread becomes permanently derailed, let me just say I hope roshan hasn't been completely discouraged from continuing. It Gets Better(tm) in the Hub.
 

Renegen

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After playing Wasteland 2 I realized how contrived the Fallouts, even the first, really are. I appreciated that everything you fought for in Wasteland 2 was far more realistic in a post-apocalyptic setting, farms, communications, trade nodes. One of the reason that game ranks really high up for me, despite its weaknesses.
 

Athelas

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After playing Wasteland 2 I realized how contrived the Fallouts, even the first, really are. I appreciated that everything you fought for in Wasteland 2 was far more realistic in a post-apocalyptic setting, farms, communications, trade nodes. One of the reason that game ranks really high up for me, despite its weaknesses.
672513710607072805.jpg
 

hiver

Guest
You are aware that Fallout was never meant to be realistic, eh gramps?
That from the get go it was the alternate history retro 50s setting, and that one location doesnt ruin the whole game, especially since for its meager stylish sins it made up more then enough with the best gameplay in the game?

... not to mention the hypocrisy of hating on Fallout 2 while proclaiming a game that is one big retarded mess of fake post apocalyptic circus schlock to be worthy successor to Fallouts? And that it was awesome?

game and it's a modified "gun" shooting crossbow bolts not lasers. The icon does look like a futuristic gun
Its a modified gun that looks like a gun? And thats a problem? In a setting that did have advanced technology before apocalypse?
Shooting crossbow bolts without any strings or bow limbs isnt?

Sound logic there. harrumph
 

Grim Monk

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Narco Economy is a developed world thing. It wouldn't exist without it.

Rubbish...
Some people focus on provided stuff like drugs throughout history, plus already you had it in Fallout 1:
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vance_(Fallout)


Not bad, eh? From a shitty little village to 700,000 people in 80 years. They were gaining roughly 10,000 people a year. Not only they managed to feed and employ them all but they also managed to build a huge city with laser gates and invent Gauss technology.

Give them another 80 years and nobody would even remember there was a war once. Why? Because America Fuck Yeah! Not even a nuclear Armageddon can stop it, only set it back by a few years.

Firstly they absorbed surrounding communities like "The Hub", its not only Shady Sands by itself...
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline#2189

Secondly they didn't probably it invent, but rather rediscover it.
Vaults, abandoned research facilities (like West Tek) etc.


There is a reason why visiting whores was a very popular and common pastime in the wild west and porn (as in producing sexual images and movies for monetary gain) didn't develop until the Victorian era. The social prerequisites simply didn't exist before that and wouldn't exist in a post-apoc society with cheap and socially acceptable sex with whores or sex as payment. Imagine asking a man who's about to hit a brothel to have his dick sucked for a couple of coins if he'd rather watch a shitty porno on some dusty old screen and jerk off.

Because people couldn't possibly want a "portable" & "personal" option...
Every little village, mine, and prospecting site is important enough to warrant its own brothel.
Every caravan always includes a prostitute...

It's the whole thing. The clone casino bouncers wearing suits, hats, and armed with tommy guns. It becomes a theme (park) not an isolated thing where you have some thug with an old tommy gun. Gizmo's mauser is a thing. He isn't dressed as a WW1 German officer in a "ze Germans are coming" theme park.

Well... It did :troll:have:



Except for it's not a fall of Rome game and it's a modified "gun" shooting crossbow bolts not lasers. The icon does look like a futuristic gun for which I apologize. We'll tweak it later if we have time.

I know.
It was mostly a joke.
Crossbow/Gun doesn't look that bad "as is".
Still looking forward to playing the :salute: game...
 
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Tigranes

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Vault Dweller

If we accept your assumptions that a narco economy is a developed world thing exclusively, and that a vice town of this style and scope could not be motivated to exist in the FO2 universe, what kind of things would? Surely prostitution and gambling would exist in some form, for instance, as would hired muscles, and people who run these things being inspired by and really getting into pre-war pop culture imaginary is also reasonable (since the entirety of FO is based on that). So what would a reasonable New Reno look like?
 

roshan

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Messages
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The music I'm hearing in my head while reading this thread:



Don't fight it, revel in it. :dance:

Before this thread becomes permanently derailed, let me just say I hope roshan hasn't been completely discouraged from continuing. It Gets Better(tm) in the Hub.


At the Hub now and you are right, it most certainly is picking up.
 

hiver

Guest
From a shitty little village to 700,000 people in 80 years. They were gaining roughly 10,000 people a year. Not only they managed to feed and employ them all but they also managed to build a huge city with laser gates and invent Gauss technology.

Give them another 80 years and nobody would even remember there was a war once. Why? Because America Fuck Yeah! Not even a nuclear Armageddon can stop it, only set it back by a few years.

This is actually the only thing in the F2 that was completely out of the setting theme and style and that affected the game negatively so much that it practically started to destroy the sense of post-apocalypse. Even post-post-apocalypse.
NCR turned Fallout into reversing backwards into civilization that destroyed everything in the first place.


But it isnt as if this thread is about logic and reason, anyway.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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Rubbish...
Some people focus on provided stuff like drugs throughout history, plus already you had it in Fallout 1:
People and economies are two different things. For example, the hillbillies have been brewing their own booze like crazy but it took the prohibition laws and suddenly created and starved market to turn it in a proper economy.

Firstly they absorbed surrounding communities like "The Hub", its not only Shady Sands...
Absorbed or not, it's an insane level of growth and prosperity.

Secondly they didn't probably it invent, but rather rediscover it.
Vaults, abandoned research facilities (like West Tek) etc.
Hell of a feat for ex-villagers.

Because people couldn't possibly want a "portable" & "personal" option...
Every little village, mine, and prospecting site is important enough to warrant its own brothel.
Every caravan always includes a prostitute...
Local demand would be met by local supply (i.e. women willing to sell sex for money/goods/services have never been in short supply). If the demand grows, it will be satisfied by out-of-towners moving in and setting up shop. See Deadwood, which had a fairly realistic portrayal of a growing town. At first, the local shithole and dirty whores handle the demand, when it grows and/or the need for classier, cleaner whores arises, they move in.

Vault Dweller

If we accept your assumptions that a narco economy is a developed world thing exclusively...
I believe it serves the developed world, thus can't exist without it.

... and that a vice town of this style and scope could not be motivated to exist in the FO2 universe, what kind of things would? Surely prostitution and gambling would exist in some form, for instance, as would hired muscles, and people who run these things being inspired by and really getting into pre-war pop culture imaginary is also reasonable (since the entirety of FO is based on that). So what would a reasonable New Reno look like?
Some form - yes, absolutely. Things like drugs, whores, gambing, hired muscles are as old as mankind. The question is what form it should take. Take organized crime, for example. Bandits, smugglers, gangs have always existed but the concept of organized crime (as we understand it and as it was presented in Fallout 2) is only a few centuries old. Even the famous Sicilian mafia is a product of the 19th century. Why? They had the concept of clans, they had weapons, bandits, hired thugs, but the prerequisites didn't exist and neither did the mafia.

Anyway, Fallout set up the scene: the world ended, dust settled, mankind has crawled from under stones and ruined it waited out the apocalypse and the repopulation begins. We see villages, old vaults, ruined cities, old military bases, etc. Nothing is out of place or ahead of the timeline. Basically, it's the Great Beginning.

Fast-forward 80 years, which isn't a lot of time to develop fully blown societies and cities with parks but enough to build something. Shady Sands could have grown into a town. Den could have been rebuilt into a proper town (no longer squatters living in ruins). The next logical step should have been about the ethics. Mankind survived, dodged the mutant threats, and built the first towns. Now what?

Let me quote from an old Deadwood article:

Although the series touches on a variety of issues including race, prostitution, misogyny, violence, politics and immigration, most of the major story lines are grounded in this issue of bringing order from chaos. The series can be conceptually framed by the major plot points that govern the changing status of the city:

Law in Deadwood: In the first season, the major focus of the story is on the rivalry between Swearengen and Bullock. Swearengen governs the city like a warlord and Bullock is the only significant opposing voice. By the end of the season, a compromise is brought in where law stands in the town, albeit with concessions.

Politics in Deadwood: Toward the end of the first season and governing the second and third seasons, the status of Deadwood within the United States becomes the most critical issue. A variety of business and political forces repeatedly push for either sovereignty or absorption into other territories or towns. The show takes great pains to show the corruption of the political interests and their ability to employ a level of violence matching Swearengen's.

Business in Deadwood: Initially foreshadowed by Cy Tolliver's arrival in Deadwood in the first season, business interests from beyond are studied at length. As with politics, the show juxtaposes Swearengen's violence with that of Tolliver and George Hearst. Whereas Swearengen is overtly brutal, Hearst masks his involvement in apparently random attacks and violence.

Architecture in Deadwood: The buildings progress from crude walled tents at the outset of the first season to more elaborate buildings by the second season with key structures getting fitted with window glass.

Power in the United States: In short, the series accurately depicts the role of entrepreneurial vice lords in generating political communities. Swearengen is shown dispensing patronage like a typical "political machine boss" which is not as far-fetched as it may seem. Saloons were sometimes used for political debates, criminal trials and assorted other gatherings. Infamous councilmen in Chicago's Levee District, for example, were concurrently saloon owners, gang bosses and pimps. Gangs could be counted on to "get out the vote" of whichever immigrant community with which their boss had sympathies or connections.

The changing nature of the American West: The series follows the dying days of the 'Wild' West, as the rugged individualism that drove people like Seth Bullock to set up in the camp is undone and replaced by corporate capitalism, bigger government and the corruption inherent in either structure. Eventually, the camp is changed entirely, with individual prospectors moved out and all the local gold mining consolidated into George Hearst's holdings.
This methodical development is what's missing in Fallout 2. Instead they borrow a page from Bethesda and jumps straight to theme parks for your amusement.
 

hiver

Guest
The question is what form it should take. Take organized crime, for example. Bandits, smugglers, gangs have always existed but the concept of organized crime (as we understand it and as it was presented in Fallout 2) is only a few centuries old.
So?

50s of the 20th century?



methodical development is what's missing in Fallout 2. Instead they borrow a page from Bethesda

:whatho::what: :hearnoevil:


could be Alzheimers...
 

tuluse

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Grim Monk

Fire up Fallout 2 and watch how long it takes to walk from the NCR to New Reno on the game calendar. Then remember there are no horses, cars, or other associated modes of transport for the average person in Fallout 2.

The NCR having a vice city right next door might make sense, but not a one a few weeks away over dangerous ground. A vice economy makes some sense, but not a tourist economy.
 

Tigranes

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Grim Monk

Fire up Fallout 2 and watch how long it takes to walk from the NCR to New Reno on the game calendar. Then remember there are no horses, cars, or other associated modes of transport for the average person in Fallout 2.

The NCR having a vice city right next door might make sense, but not a one a few weeks away over dangerous ground. A vice economy makes some sense, but not a tourist economy.

You'd think the natural thing to do was make the NCR even bigger, either containing a kind of vice economy inside their own fences in the Vault (accessible to full citizens) or just outside in the slums. This could potentially legislate for some, though not all, of New Reno's flamboyancy and excess, because if we accept that NCR is the most advanced, prosperous and populated area around by far (even if 700k is a number out of thin air), and that it is clearly governed in rather draconian ways, then it makes sense for prohibition era-style pressures to create a thriving underground market, and for various gang leaders to vie for supremacy, for them to use drugs as a clientele dependency tactic, etc. Of course, you wouldn't see such areas filled with tommy guns and suits and all, as it'd be more tucked away.

I remember one of the standard NMA arguments was that if you played FO2 first, you can't help but like it, and you can't really take the setting criticisms to heart. I enjoyed FO2 and I think, this still being only the third or fourth CRPG I played, I was willing to run with most things - and subconsciously ignore things like Scientology and Chinatown (that whole place is pretty badly designed I think, even without the setting criticism).
 

t

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Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
What can I say, VD never fails to deliver. Hope small skirmishes like this act as a relaxation tool and help him focus more on Ganezzar later on :)

On topic edit: there was a fuckton of bouncer-looking tommy gun-weilding jackasses in the random encounter around New Reno, so not "6" dudes.
 

Grim Monk

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People and economies are two different things. For example, the hillbillies have been brewing their own booze like crazy but it took the prohibition laws and suddenly created and starved market to turn it in a proper economy.

.......................

Some form - yes, absolutely. Things like drugs, whores, gambling, hired muscles are as old as mankind. The question is what form it should take.

I absolutely don't see why is New Reno so unbelievable...
How is it different to "Junktown" or to the seedier aspects of "The Hub"?

Both dealt in already "Vice"...
Do I really have to list every occurrence of prostitution, gambling, drugs, selling of alcohol in Fallout 1?

If it was already part of the economy back then, why would it not be 80 years later...


Local demand would be met by local supply (i.e. women willing to sell sex for money/goods/services have never been in short supply). If the demand grows, it will be satisfied by out-of-towners moving in and setting up shop. See Deadwood, which had a fairly realistic portrayal of a growing town. At first, the local shithole and dirty whores handle the demand, when it grows and/or the need for classier, cleaner whores arises, they move in.

I don't agree that prostitution would necessarily cancel out all demand for pornography.
Having one local hooker doesn't mean everybody would throw away their pinup poster.
Idealized Fantasy vs reality.
And lets not even get into people having different Fetishes/Kinks/Preferences.


So I don't see your above post contradicting what I previously said...


Take organized crime, for example. Bandits, smugglers, gangs have always existed but the concept of organized crime (as we understand it and as it was presented in Fallout 2) is only a few centuries old. Even the famous Sicilian mafia is a product of the 19th century. Why? They had the concept of clans, they had weapons, bandits, hired thugs, but the prerequisites didn't exist and neither did the mafia.

What would you call Decker's mob in the Hub then, and to a lesser extent Gizmo's gang in Junktown..
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Underground

The guys over in New Reno are no "National Crime Syndicate" either, I see them as a reasonable progression from what was seen in Fallout 1.

To me New Reno was basically "the Hub" 2.0




This methodical development is what's missing in Fallout 2.

To an extent I agree.

Fallout 1 was very "elegant" in its design, 2 is considerably less so.

How ever I take exception people bashing Fallout 2 like its proto-3.
Most concepts in 2 are sound, and with a bit more polish/better framing would have be excellent.
Stuff like:
Enclave
[Excellent]
Tribals. [Solid Idea]
Rivals societies/City States arising out ashes, and competing with each other. [Excellent]
A more developed frontier economy with "scavenger" elements due to the PA setting. [Excellent]
NCR. [Agree with you that its shown rather poorly.]
San Francisco "Chinese Society" [While an interesting concept its very disappointingly implemented & underdeveloped.]


Fallout 3 on the other hand (outside of possible its art style and the occasional "flash in the pan" moment), showed complete inaptitude at every level.

In conclusion, IMHO Fallout 2 is "great for what it is", and still one of the best RPG's out there.



On topic edit: there was a fuckton of bouncer-looking tommy gun-weilding jackasses in the random encounter around New Reno, so not "6" dudes.

I know, and I'll make no :negative: excuses for that...

Nor do I make excuses for the :? "Yakuza".
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Yakuza

My main point was that New Reno itself was not the horrible design aberration that its often made out to be...
 
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Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Messages
28,035
I absolutely don't see why is New Reno so unbelievable...
How is it different to "Junktown" or to the seedier aspects of "The Hub"?
As I said before, people doing some shit and an organized effort to do it on a large scale are two different things. For example, why Las Vegas was developed? Because it provided legitimacy to the mobsters - a way to operate openly, launder money on a large scale, etc. These reasons don't exist in a post-apoc world. Armed groups don't need cover to operate openly, don't need the pretense of legitimacy, don't need cash businesses to launder money, etc.

Gambling would exist, of course, but it won't grow into a Vegas-like enterprise. Again, there was a reason why it was a low-key thing in the wild west. Those who had the power didn't need the casinos. They seized land and towns becoming cattle barons, land owners, building rail roads, fighting for political power, etc - simpler, old-school ways of becoming rich and powerful. Basically, becoming local lords.

Do I really have to list every occurrence of prostitution, gambling, drugs, selling of alcohol in Fallout 1?
Again, the issue isn't the activity but the scale.

If it was already part of the economy back then, why would it not be 80 years later...
See above.

I don't agree that prostitution would necessarily cancel out all demand for pornography.
Having one local hooker doesn't mean everybody would throw away their pinup poster. Idealized Fantasy vs reality.
And lets not even get into people having different Fetishes/Kinks/Preferences.
Nothing local whores can't satisfy.

Sure, maybe there is a dozen of really weird guys who'd rather watch porn and jerk off than have sex, but that's not enough of a demand to open a porn studio. The reason porn is doing so well today is because the number of people who want to have sex but can't at the moment (too young, too old, too geeky, too afraid to cheat even on a girlfriend not mention visit a whore, plus the fear of catching something) is infinitely greater than the number of people who can pay for sex.

What would you call Decker's mob in the Hub then, and to a lesser extent Gizmo's gang in Junktown..
I'd call it a gang. Gangs existed for thousands of years but only in the last two hundred years they evolved into organized crime.

Fallout 1 was very "elegant" in its design, 2 is considerably less so.
Pretty much.
 

Darkzone

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2,323
@VD
While i overall agree with your statements, i have a little problem to brofist your posts, because there are always something that is not quite. Let us take a look at Shady Sands and its citizens.
Assuming 10 citizens that are in the right age to reproduce, the 80 years and no problems. And we have 4 generations, and if there is enough food, we can have 6 children pro generation and family, and a life expectancy of around 60 years. This concludes to:
20 years later: 10+30 = 40 people. 40 years later: 10+30+90 = 130 people. 60 years later: 30+90+270 = 390 people. 80 years later: 90+270+810 = 1170 people.
From 10 to 1170 people within 80 years and without any immigrants and not including surrounding villages. How about only 2 immigrants pro year?
20 years later: (10+30)+(40+40) = 110 people. 40 years later: (10+30+90)+(40+40+120)+(40+40)= 410 people. 60 years later: (30+90+270)+(40+120+360)+(40+40+120)+(40+40)=1190 people.
80 years later: (90+270+810)+(120+360+1080)+(40+120+360)+(40+40+120)+(40+40)= 3530 people. Such a town could dominate the surrounding villages and even swallow smaller city states.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Assuming 10 citizens that are in the right age to reproduce, the 80 years and no problems. And we have 4 generations, and if there is enough food, we can have 6 children pro generation and family, and a life expectancy of around 60 years.
Except for:

- Remember what the mortality rate for kids was in the Middle Ages? Why do you expect it to be any different in a post-apoc world? No antibiotics, vaccination, basic meds, plus natural hazards, not to mention raiders and radiation. 6 kids? You'd be lucky if 2 make it to adulthood. In fact you'd be lucky if women don't die during the second or third childbirth.
- If there is enough food? That seems like a big IF right there.
- Life expectancy of 60 years? In the middle ages it was around 35.

You painted some kinda cottage life utopia not a harsh post-apocalyptic world.

80 years later: (90+270+810)+(120+360+1080)+(40+120+360)+(40+40+120)+(40+40)= 3530 people. Such a town could dominate the surrounding villages and even swallow smaller city states.
How many surrounding villages and small towns would it have to swallow to have 700,000 people?
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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A discussion of whether or not such-and-such element of FO2 or FO1 is "logical" or "plausible" based on real-world standards is the wrong question. Both games are full of magic and pulp science. The issue is that in FO1, for the most part (not counting Easter eggs and a few small exceptions), these elements are thematic and consistent with the specific pulp genre the game is trying to evoke. With FO2, I'm less concerned with whether we can gin up a just-so story for why NCR has grown so fast or how Reno supports its economy. Instead, the question is, how do Prohibition-era gangsters in a pseudo-Las Vegas, gauss technology in NCR, Scientologists, kung-fu, time travel, etc. enhance the core themes and develop the mood of a post-apocalyptic setting.

By stuffing the setting with big, thriving cities and the kind of parasites that a big, thriving society has (Scientology, a pornography industry, etc.), it undermines the sense of marginal, frontier, risk-of-oblivion feel that is critical to the genre. Aspects of San Francisco feel more like cyberpunk than post-apocalyptic. Etc.
 

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