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Ultima Ultima 7=Decline?

erthia

Educated
Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Messages
49
Ultima VII is an exellent game. It's all about the world, the characters, the exploration, and the entire atmosphere. I think the real-time combat worked great. Sure, it didn't give you the same control that you have with a turn based rpg, but it was just fun. You can interact with the world like taking chairs and moving them somwehere else, that was pretty cool, or even being a bad guy and robbing people or doing other bad things. The game gave you a choice to be who you want to be. The music was great, the world was great, and it just captured you. Who cares about an rpg with a hundred different skills and stuff to figure out when you got something that is simple, fun, and just again... captures you! Ultima VII is great, it's a fun game to play!
 

pippin

Guest
Ultima 7 was a great game, and one of the best games of 1992. Still, not a true rpg imo. More like the biggest template for the contemporary open world arpg, in the vein of Gothic or The Elder Scrolls.
 

Neanderthal

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Yeah I can see why OP thinks this is start o decline, in many ways I think it were, lack o character creation, lack o classes, lack o deep stat relevance such as you see in Torment, Arcanum an Fallout, even lack o camping mechanic that we saw in V, lack of morality meter etc.

Then again the positives are equally strong, living world that makes even modern Elder Scrolls look a bit shit in comparison, day and night schedule that actually had enough shit happening to merit your downtime being rewarding, NPC schedules and characterisation that once again piss all over Bethesda, environmental interaction whereas most modern games are just characters on painted backdrops, masses o interesting things to do outside combat, themes and narrative that are both interesting and philosophically quite fucking deep, spells that change how you can play game and are interesting and mighty, no loading screens, magical items that are useful and once again change gameplay, masses o methods o getting around from various forms o teleportation to magic carpets, wagons, and o course shanks mare.

Another thing that I loved were inventory, simple an intuitive because it were almost exactly like reality, so it came easy to anybody who used it. You carry shit in your hands if you've got nowhere to put it, but put on a backpack an you've got a ton o space to use, add a few bags and you can further sort your inventory. Requires management to keep on top of it but preparing yourself for all shit that comes wi trudging off into wilds o Britannia is only fair and reasonable, an you'd be an idiot not to. That an you could craft a homebase organically, you dint get given a stronghold or owt, but you could collect chest and keys to lock em, store your gold an artifacts in em, an create a supply depot wi food, drink, an all your needs to stock up on.

Also exploration in U7 were fucking top notch, heading off into Deep Forest, from Iolo's Hut was an adventure and a challenge, and you found interesting shit. An plumbing all the old dungeons was great, especially ones that weren't on critical quest path, just optional content that'd be cut on a modern game. An this exploration an adventuring, no fucking quest markers, no mini map, you had a simple feature once again taken from reality, a map o realm an a sextant to pinpoint your position that dint do shit in a dungeon. Players were not treated like a fucking incompetent child for once, they were trusted to be able to do shit an think.

Mixed things i'm not sure are decline or incline are romances, an U7 were fucking chock full on em, an years before Bioware trumpeted about its characters being able to be bi, gay, lesbian or whatever, U7 had your Avatar free to screw who he or she wanted to in various places and it dint even raise a single eyebrow, it were taken as normal and not even commented on. It were treated like sexuality were in Obs NV, no big fucking thing, but did it spawn Biowares sickening and cloying insistence on everybody forcing themselves on you an trumpeting their private shit all over, who knows, might have.

All told i'd say positives outweigh negatives, and I fucking wish a lot o modern games'd try what U7 did, cause they seem to be stripping down an abstracting almost everything outside combat an graphics, an being cheered on for delivering less an less content. Wow wrote a lot.
 

Aenra

Guest
Neanderthal Ye lost yer accent ye domb prick!
/decline

Ultima VII was a great game. The combat sucked, yes, the respawns winked at other .. game approaches.., yes; but such was the strength of its merits that i can call it a great game despite the above. OP is a faggot :)
Exploring avenues that were not combat-centric is not a fault. Fleshing out the world in ways that only those who care for detail would ever acknowledge is not a fault either (everyone was welcome to ignore them and stick to the 'meat' of the game). Nor is attempting to add a depth to what most leave superficial. I'm not gonna blame U7 for the shit that happened to have come out decades later. Same with LB in person, if i wanna blame him, it sure as hell isn't about U7.
 
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Alex

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São Paulo - Brasil
Ultima 7 was a great game, and one of the best games of 1992. Still, not a true rpg imo. More like the biggest template for the contemporary open world arpg, in the vein of Gothic or The Elder Scrolls.

I would argue with you about this, but I don't see the point. We would end up just arguing about what is an RPG, and no one wants to argue that anymore, it seems. I still consider Ultima 7 better as an RPG than Planescape: Torment, and maybe even better than Fallout.
 

Beastro

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Messages
8,148
Another thing that I loved were inventory, simple an intuitive because it were almost exactly like reality, so it came easy to anybody who used it. You carry shit in your hands if you've got nowhere to put it, but put on a backpack an you've got a ton o space to use, add a few bags and you can further sort your inventory. Requires management to keep on top of it but preparing yourself for all shit that comes wi trudging off into wilds o Britannia is only fair and reasonable, an you'd be an idiot not to. That an you could craft a homebase organically, you dint get given a stronghold or owt, but you could collect chest and keys to lock em, store your gold an artifacts in em, an create a supply depot wi food, drink, an all your needs to stock up on.

Have to say even the tedium of it's design had a silver lining in that it was very realistic, having to rummage through shit in a bag not finding the thing you're after and resorting to emptying it only to find what you thought was in the bag wasn't there.
 
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RK47

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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Ultima 7 is not decline, but it´s a harbinger of it. Every new RPG tries to be ultima 7 and fail to achieve its level.

Would love some samples of 'bad rpg trying to be ultima7'
I played Dark Sun, Might and Magic, Realms of Arkania, they're really, really different from U7. Hell, I even finished BloodNet.
 

Kem0sabe

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Would love some samples of 'bad rpg trying to be ultima7'
I played Dark Sun, Might and Magic, Realms of Arkania, they're really, really different from U7. Hell, I even finished BloodNet.
Ultima name was thrown around way too much recently with divinity original sin, with terrible results.

Seems that modern game devs associate Ultima with moving furniture or having a big world, much to the detriment of game design.

Ultima vii was great because of the story, characters, writing and how that depth of storytelling was balanced with the amazing interactive world.
 

RK47

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Would love some samples of 'bad rpg trying to be ultima7'
I played Dark Sun, Might and Magic, Realms of Arkania, they're really, really different from U7. Hell, I even finished BloodNet.
Ultima name was thrown around way too much recently with divinity original sin, with terrible results.

Seems that modern game devs associate Ultima with moving furniture or having a big world, much to the detriment of game design.

Ultima vii was great because of the story, characters, writing and how that depth of storytelling was balanced with the amazing interactive world.

Yeah I kinda ranted about it in their forum but obviously they don't get why their tribute to their favorite RPG sucks.\
But really? Is that it? I asked for examples of games trying to be U7 and sucking and all you gave me is a recent RPG made by Larian?
 

Kem0sabe

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Would love some samples of 'bad rpg trying to be ultima7'
I played Dark Sun, Might and Magic, Realms of Arkania, they're really, really different from U7. Hell, I even finished BloodNet.
Ultima name was thrown around way too much recently with divinity original sin, with terrible results.

Seems that modern game devs associate Ultima with moving furniture or having a big world, much to the detriment of game design.

Ultima vii was great because of the story, characters, writing and how that depth of storytelling was balanced with the amazing interactive world.

Yeah I kinda ranted about it in their forum but obviously they don't get why their tribute to their favorite RPG sucks.\
But really? Is that it? I asked for examples of games trying to be U7 and sucking and all you gave me is a recent RPG made by Larian?

I dont recall anymore game developers talking about it recently.
 

RK47

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The new thing is open world in third/first person ala Witcher 3/Skyrim.
Hell, even Dragon Age gave up and went full retard in Inquisition, the result is a myriad of kill and fetch 20 boar balls to fill the void in space while lacing the main campaign with the same 'edgy and hip' fantasy like\ ;gnjangangouqnaghkladhnisnksdalbgngoan ghn jsan bhjnaigpifjaohnladshnohagldsnhoioidsLKoahinf;lkfnoindfkbaonh
 
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Would love some samples of 'bad rpg trying to be ultima7'
I played Dark Sun, Might and Magic, Realms of Arkania, they're really, really different from U7. Hell, I even finished BloodNet.
Ultima name was thrown around way too much recently with divinity original sin, with terrible results.

Seems that modern game devs associate Ultima with moving furniture or having a big world, much to the detriment of game design.

Ultima vii was great because of the story, characters, writing and how that depth of storytelling was balanced with the amazing interactive world.

If anything, I think that games like Space Rangers 2 have done the most justice to the U7 design style. The interactivity is great, even today, but what I really wanted was more ways of making the interactivity meaningful (yes, I know there are some, but not enough - though maybe I'm just bitter that my 'magic carpet with a canon on each corner' wasn't the bomber of death that I was hoping for). SR2 (and quite a few games of that ilk) give exactly what I felt was the obvious way of building on U7 - being able to manipulate the interactivity to achieve goals in a way that doesn't feel like you're breaking the game, e.g. blockading key suppliers of a resource to create shortages elsewhere and manipulate trade.
 

RK47

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SR2 is a Frankenstein of a game IMO. Never have I seen a dev going that far in adding hybrid sub-sub-genre into a game. I've played Microprose's Covert Action and they're just mini-games strung together, but SR2 actually made those arcade battles, adventure text puzzles, RTS and planetary trading into its own thing and some of them are strong enough not to be dismissed as a mini-game.
But yes, I'd love to play a SR3 if it's ever available.
 

Kem0sabe

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SR2 is a Frankenstein of a game IMO. Never have I seen a dev going that far in adding hybrid sub-sub-genre into a game. I've played Microprose's Covert Action and they're just mini-games strung together, but SR2 actually made those arcade battles, adventure text puzzles, RTS and planetary trading into its own thing and some of them are strong enough not to be dismissed as a mini-game.
But yes, I'd love to play a SR3 if it's ever available.
i could never get into SR2, the art style and the gameplay just felt too "arcadey"
 
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Divinity: Original Sin
Ultima 7 is not decline, but it´s a harbinger of it. Every new RPG tries to be ultima 7 and fail to achieve its level.

Would love some samples of 'bad rpg trying to be ultima7'
I played Dark Sun, Might and Magic, Realms of Arkania, they're really, really different from U7. Hell, I even finished BloodNet.

Well, I said every "new", I meant more recent releases, from after 2000. And what qualify as such is mainly Oblivion and the elder scrolls series, then Dragon Age, Mass Effect... Selling points in these games were things that ultima 7 did accomplish perfectly, and yet these new RPGs presented themselves as pioneers. Morrowind and Gothic were atempts at such (imitate U7 style). Then we got oblivion and gothic 3.

I like the Witcher series, but it also tries to be ultima 7. But if if one considers witchers representatives of decline, it also qualifies.

Divine Divinity tried to be an U7 clone. And also Divinity: Original Sin, but this one is not a decline.

The point is that the representatives of decline nowadays all have attempts to do things that U7 nailed.

The examples you mentioned are from about the same time u7 was released to be influenced by U7. And they don't qualify as "decline" either.
 

Serus

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Ultima VII is an exellent game. It's all about the world, the characters, the exploration, and the entire atmosphere. I think the real-time combat worked great. Sure, it didn't give you the same control that you have with a turn based rpg, but it was just fun. You can interact with the world like taking chairs and moving them somwehere else, that was pretty cool, or even being a bad guy and robbing people or doing other bad things. The game gave you a choice to be who you want to be. The music was great, the world was great, and it just captured you. Who cares about an rpg with a hundred different skills and stuff to figure out when you got something that is simple, fun, and just again... captures you! Ultima VII is great, it's a fun game to play!

1. The problem with U7's combat isn't less control than turn-based. It has nothing to do with being or not being turn-based at all. The problem is that it gave you very little control over combat in general - compared to most crpgs and it was very poorly executed. That's the problem, not real-time vs turn-based (as you are trying to imply), but a semi-automatic mostly chaotic and uninteresting bullshit vs interesting and controllable combat. Darklands was a game from the same era, real-time combat. You might argue with good reason that Darkland's combat wasn't very good - but even average system as this was way ahead of ultima 7 in almost every aspect. As i said: turn-based vs real-time has nothing to do it with u7 combat being shit. Not being shit vs shit has all to do with it.

2. "Who cares about an rpg with a hundred different skills and stuff to figure out when you got something that is simple, fun, and just again... captures you!" - Something that is fun ? - you mean things like being able to move chairs ?: "You can interact with the world like taking chairs and moving them somwehere else, that was pretty cool". Well ok, let me remain sceptic as to the valor of "moving chairs" (and more generally interactivity as the main goal of design) compared to "hundred different stuff to figure out" (aka well made game systems).

That's imho the case of a fundamental divide between 2 kinds of players of crpgs (or even players in general) = the kind that wants to be immersed in the game and think of games as means of escapism. And the kind that thinks of game and its system as of a puzzle, a thing to be solved or "beaten". Ultima 7 was obviously the former type of game - one of the first of this kind in crpgs, in general the series starting from part 6 introduced this approach to the genre afaik. Some people think that crpgs going for "immersion" is one of the reason of decline of the genre. Some people think that crpg is - or should be - a "puzzle" type of game and the "immersion" type of game is better left to other genres (for exemple adventure games of various sub-types, cyoas, virtual novels, maybe some types of first person actioney games). The second kind of players will never aknowledge U7 as anything more that a flawed game with some well done elements (mostly the interactivity part) but a weak crpg in general. Unless of curse someone thinks that world building+exploration and puzzles were good enough to push U7 into "good crpg" territory. I don't.
 
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In My Safe Space
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Codex 2012
Yeah I can see why OP thinks this is start o decline, in many ways I think it were, lack o character creation, lack o classes, lack o deep stat relevance such as you see in Torment, Arcanum an Fallout, even lack o camping mechanic that we saw in V, lack of morality meter etc.

Then again the positives are equally strong, living world that makes even modern Elder Scrolls look a bit shit in comparison, day and night schedule that actually had enough shit happening to merit your downtime being rewarding, NPC schedules and characterisation that once again piss all over Bethesda, environmental interaction whereas most modern games are just characters on painted backdrops, masses o interesting things to do outside combat, themes and narrative that are both interesting and philosophically quite fucking deep, spells that change how you can play game and are interesting and mighty, no loading screens, magical items that are useful and once again change gameplay, masses o methods o getting around from various forms o teleportation to magic carpets, wagons, and o course shanks mare.

Another thing that I loved were inventory, simple an intuitive because it were almost exactly like reality, so it came easy to anybody who used it. You carry shit in your hands if you've got nowhere to put it, but put on a backpack an you've got a ton o space to use, add a few bags and you can further sort your inventory. Requires management to keep on top of it but preparing yourself for all shit that comes wi trudging off into wilds o Britannia is only fair and reasonable, an you'd be an idiot not to. That an you could craft a homebase organically, you dint get given a stronghold or owt, but you could collect chest and keys to lock em, store your gold an artifacts in em, an create a supply depot wi food, drink, an all your needs to stock up on.

Also exploration in U7 were fucking top notch, heading off into Deep Forest, from Iolo's Hut was an adventure and a challenge, and you found interesting shit. An plumbing all the old dungeons was great, especially ones that weren't on critical quest path, just optional content that'd be cut on a modern game. An this exploration an adventuring, no fucking quest markers, no mini map, you had a simple feature once again taken from reality, a map o realm an a sextant to pinpoint your position that dint do shit in a dungeon. Players were not treated like a fucking incompetent child for once, they were trusted to be able to do shit an think.

Mixed things i'm not sure are decline or incline are romances, an U7 were fucking chock full on em, an years before Bioware trumpeted about its characters being able to be bi, gay, lesbian or whatever, U7 had your Avatar free to screw who he or she wanted to in various places and it dint even raise a single eyebrow, it were taken as normal and not even commented on. It were treated like sexuality were in Obs NV, no big fucking thing, but did it spawn Biowares sickening and cloying insistence on everybody forcing themselves on you an trumpeting their private shit all over, who knows, might have.

All told i'd say positives outweigh negatives, and I fucking wish a lot o modern games'd try what U7 did, cause they seem to be stripping down an abstracting almost everything outside combat an graphics, an being cheered on for delivering less an less content. Wow wrote a lot.
I remember how shocking decline Baldur's Gate was after Ultima VII.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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Agreed. The wonder and whimsy in U7 were great. Where has whimsy gone in today's games? Everything is so serious and dark and edgy. What happened to high adventure?
 

mondblut

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This thread is a great excercise in hilarity when you mentally replace "Ultima 7" with "Oblivion" in every apologetic fanboy's post, and not once it starts sounding off.

You can interact with the world like taking chairs and moving them somwehere else, that was pretty cool

Good lord... :negative: It starts going to Minecrap territory now.
 

erthia

Educated
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Messages
49
LOL! Come on man. Back in that day, there were no games like Ultima VII. Yeah, I am huge fan of Ultima VII, it's one of my favourite games. The point is though the game is fun. Tell me, what game can you think of back then that would let you move chairs? Like come on, it was a damn example I pointed out that was pretty interesting in the game, lol. Like for friggin sakes, you could take a chair all the way to the other side of the world, you can't do that in Pillars of Eternity... Again, just an example. Despite the whole moving chair thing, the game has great characters, a great story, and the whole atmosphere was great. Also, the old English added some charm too, can't forget about that one! Or what about the cool voice acting? Where you sleep, and then the guardian taunts you, that was pretty cool back then too! The bestiary, the graphics, the music... it was all good! So yeah, I am a fan because Ultima VII is one of the best RPGs of all time because it's just one of those games that is really good and fun to play! It has charm, and everything just fit together perfectly.

This thread is a great excercise in hilarity when you mentally replace "Ultima 7" with "Oblivion" in every apologetic fanboy's post, and not once it starts sounding off.

You can interact with the world like taking chairs and moving them somwehere else, that was pretty cool

Good lord... :negative: It starts going to Minecrap territory now.
 

Alex

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Messages
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The whole "moving chairs" thing is really integral to what Ultima 7 was. Not because moving a chair made a difference, but because the game was designed from the ground up to be a virtual world. If you start removing stuff you think doesn't matter to the gameplay, the idea of a virtual world starts to fade away. Soon you will end up designing the game as a game again, and only care about stuff if it has a direct impact with the story you created, or if it is important for combat, or for this or that skill the PC has.

Ultima VII was designed so you could go around town and talk with NPCs that are absolutely unimportant. They don't matter for the main quest, they don't matter for any side quests, they don't give out any clues, they don't sell any items. Sometimes they will tell jokes in exchange for alms. But the game is far more interesting for having these NPCs. The towns in Ultima VII are ridiculously small if you don't consider them to be some kind of abstraction. Yet, the game manages to make those towns not only feel like towns, but also distinct places.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, I think U7's formula could be greatly improved if only the game had made more use of its capabilities. If there were more things (quests, events and whatnot) that made use of the schedule system. If there had been more use out of the many common and unimportant items you can find. If there were more things you could have found by snooping around, like keys, hints and what not. But if you take away things like moving chairs, or baking bread, or breaking into people's homes and using their art supplies, or buying your own ship and loading it with consumables, cannon balls and a cannon, or whatever. If you take away this stuff, you take away its magic. It becomes crap adventure game.
 

Grauken

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If all that fabulous virtual world stuff had actually powered some good RPG systems, especially combat at least on the levels of its predecessors, I would have liked the game more, but I've never been partial to walking simulators
 

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