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Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

Luckmann

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Hmm so first Tyranny flops then this flops (talking sales wise). I would maybe start to worry if the POE2 campaign wasn't so successful. I suppose you can write it up to Tyranny being a new IP and Torment simply not having a large appeal (shit gameplay, all story). Admittedly I haven't purchased Torment because it looks boring as fuck. Also fuck making the UI work for consoles, that can never lead to good things.
Tyranny and Torment both share the fact that they're just plain unfinished and was hacked to pieces during development. Tyranny has stronger mechanics and Torment has a stronger narrative, but that's about it.

What's sad is that Tyranny being shitty is more understandable, because it was a side project. How the fuck inXile could fail with Tides of Numenera and botch development this bad, that's anyone's guess.
Also Tyranny havent been in development for 4 years and had a much smaller budget.
Yeah, that's part of what I meant by a "side project". Tyranny had a smaller team, a smaller budget, a shorter development cycle, and is widely recognized as having been pushed out the door too early. Tides of Numenera have none of those excuses. It had a budget ~500% of what it originally requested, and it still had to cut the majority of content that was supposed to be added and it had to hack into the core, removing aspects of the original pitch. It's insane.

Who did write Erritis? He was the best companion imo(Scan Thought ability will even make him sound more interesting)

MCA, of course. Though, I'd say that Rhin is just slightly better, by a minor increment.
What the fuck? Rhin is fucking awful.
 

ArchAngel

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They should have made "Scan Thought" a basic ability of the Castoff regardless of classes/builds. It adds so much flavor (and sometimes even has more practical uses, like scanning a thought and then having a new dialogue option "what was this X I heard you thinking about just now") that it seems ridiculous to play without it.
Should Malkavian's extra contents be made default for all vampire clans? No. Scan Thoughts for Nano only means people that didn't plan Nano can go again and get a somewhat different experience.
 

Moth

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What the fuck? Rhin is fucking awful.

She is wonderful in combat once properly levelled, she has depth and a consistent character, and she has a nice story arc. All of the same is true for Erritis. Rhin stands out as being more unique, however. Erritis is a brilliant subversion of a large combination of tropes. Rhin is her own thing, independent of needing to subvert anything.
 
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Hellion

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Should Malkavian's extra contents be made default for all vampire clans? No. Scan Thoughts for Nano only means people that didn't plan Nano can go again and get a somewhat different experience.

Malkavians' extra content simply adds a unique flavor to something that could easily be experienced on its own "vanilla" state or with the uniqueness of the other clans. In NuTorment as it is we have 2 completely banal classes (Glaive, Jack) and one which has unique abilities that make certain elements more bearable (Nano).
 

Luckmann

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They should have made "Scan Thought" a basic ability of the Castoff regardless of classes/builds. It adds so much flavor (and sometimes even has more practical uses, like scanning a thought and then having a new dialogue option "what was this X I heard you thinking about just now") that it seems ridiculous to play without it.
Should Malkavian's extra contents be made default for all vampire clans? No. Scan Thoughts for Nano only means people that didn't plan Nano can go again and get a somewhat different experience.
The real problem as far as I'm concerned, is that there's a ridiculous over-emphasis on Nanos, compared to options offered to other kinds of characters. Nanos are likely to have high Intellect, they are a good choice for Perception, they can get +1 to all Knowledge Skills at Tier 2, and they get Sense Thoughts. In term of information gathered and options offered, nothing can really compete with that. Like. At all. There's just about 4 times more Intellect tests than there are Might, and all the others will have difficulties getting anywhere near the same skillset - nevermind the fact that it's a hard fit for most characters that aren't nanos, anyway.

There could've been some tests for Running, Healing, etc., and a hell of a lot more Smashing/Quick Fingers, especially in the vein of "offering more options" rather than "Do what everyone else can do anyway, just get a +15% bonus for no reason".
 

Moth

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Tybir was also a well-written character

Agreed. It was a pleasant and unexpected turn to discover he has depth, over halfway through the game. I heard a few people complaining that there was no "Morte" type character that is both humorous and possessing depth. While he is far from identical to Morte, he does seem to fit the desired archetype.

Also, wassup with the bad spelling ratings? I'm not seeing the errors in either of my posts, but then again I'm not really taking much time to reread whatever I'm posting.
 
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Lurker King

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Be careful - if it's not the next Age of Decadence, it could be the next Prelude to Darkness

Apples and oranges. Times have changed. You have cheap engines, steam, they have a bigger team, etc.

Should Malkavian's extra contents be made default for all vampire clans? No. Scan Thoughts for Nano only means people that didn't plan Nano can go again and get a somewhat different experience.

Exactly. Besides, you also have access to unique content using anamnesis and perception. You just need one point in each of these skills to change your experience in dialogues.
 
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Excidium II

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The game must be flopping like crazy in sales. 7.300 max simultaneous players while wasteland had 18.576 and it doesn't even appear on the top sellers.
lol PoE is 2 years old and tworment can barely get twice as many steam players as there are online on PoE right now
 

IHaveHugeNick

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I have no qualms about picking Jack. Specced mine as a smoth-talking thief and there seems to be plenty of content for him. Nano will make good 2nd playtrough.
 

Taka-Haradin puolipeikko

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
PS:T had a Lead Designer, Chris Avellone, who obviously assumed a de-facto Creative Lead role. Nobody remembers Fallout 2's lead designer though, because he wasn't very important. Nor was Fallout 1's really (no, it wasn't Tim Cain).

But anyway, structure matters, but I'm more interested in the effect of the modern separation between "design" and "writing" roles, which as I said used to be combined. I think that could lead to what appears to the player like a "lack of focus".

I don't know if you can blame it on bad workflow or bad structure or whatever. Look how differently InXile operates compared to Obsidian. InXile basically cut off communication, hide in the the trenches for couple of years, and only come out when the game is finished. Obsidian though? Josh spams every day on 3 different forums and communicates everything, including what he had for breakfast and whether it had impact on the texture and color of the massive dump he took afterwards.

It's like, completely different approach, and yet the problems every game ends up with are remarkably similar.

The differences doesn't end there, for all Eternity's, Sawyer's and Obsidian's faults/flaws on how they handled the mechanics, writing and design, at least they listen to criticism and feedback and at least try to work to fix those, and admit where the players have valid criticism, such as the stronghold and underdeveloped and underwhelming Defiance Bay. Someone might correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I've seen any acknowledgement from inXile about the flaws in Wasteland 2.

I give big props for Sawyer because he very actively engages with the audience (and consumers), which goes a long way in my books even if I don't like what they're doing or might not agree with him.
Then there is Harebrained Schemes who seem to have very clear and active approach for community relations and feedback.
 
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Lurker King

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But you can't use them on almost every single NPC unlike Scan Thoughts ability.

You can't use scan thoughts on every NPC, and you can use anmenesis or perception in other circunstamces. The game already suffers from lack of character building and skills. If you make this mandatory, you could just as well remove all the classes and skills.
 
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an Administrator

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One of the most disappointing moments of the game for me was
When i convinced four people to rise up against the execution of Riso, i expected a bloody fight between my people and overseer's levies. But no, they just stopped the execution and simply walked away! And when the overseer told me that he knew what i did, i expected to be ambushed by guards at some point and guess what, nothing happend. :|
 
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Lurker King

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I give big props for Sawyer because he very actively engages with the audience (and consumers), which goes a long way in my books even if I don't like what they're doing or might not agree with him.

Then there is Harebrained Schemes who seem to have very clear and active approach for community relations and feedback.

What difference does it make? Will Josh Sawyer will make the character building less popamole? No! Will Harebrained Schemes make a game with cRPG meat? No. So it doesn’t matter. Open attitude to superficial feedback doesn’t improve things.
 

PhantasmaNL

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria
So i guess the less than stellar TTON sales will lead to cut content in the Bards Tale 4 (now without bard, tale remains, for now).

Place your bets on when this will be communicated.
 

existential_vacuum

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It's time to post good ol' pic
pKTvxFV.jpg

And god damn, played another 3-4 hours and it is still highly incositent in quality. Even Erritis and several bottles of beer can't help.
The game is damn easy. Multiple solutions require no effort (ha, effort) at all. What the fuck.
 

DeepOcean

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Okay, replayed Planescape Torment about a year ago, it is still fresh on my mind so I can make a comparison. The major differences in terms of writing is that Planescape: Torment worries with where the player is at that moment and what the player sees. NumaNuma worries with where the player should go and pay little attention with where he is, it is more interested into pushing the player into the plot while Planescape Torment has its plot around the player for him to discover. One only cares into pushing the player foward and the other is more passive trying to lure the player on its mistery first, one has patience and the other doesn't, one cares about the player, the other cares about the plot.

I dunno if this is a question of talent or that game designers now work on their niche and writers on their other little niche like Infinitron said, NumaNuma worries alot about informing the player while Planescape Torment worries alot about luring the player and on the process inform him very, very slowly, on a much more passive way.

There are huge differences on those approaches, on Planescape Torment, for example, you find a major character that is later central to he plot on the Mortuary, Deionarra, you can find her out of your organic exploration, there is nothing guiding you to her and pushing you forward, the only goal is to leave the Mortuary, same you can find there one of the companions of your past and see at first hand how you were ruthless.

You unravel things and the player only come to know things out of his exploration, the characters only give you fragmented information based on their points of view. I remember when I first played and the Nameless one wake up on the mortuary, you only know you wrote a message to yourself on your back on a certain desperate tone, that you need to find Pharod and Morte while being helpful and sympathetic, it isn't being 100% honest with you for some reason.

Right after you wake up, you have the whole Mortuary, a weird place, you get to know of the Dustmen and how they see death, what is something extremely important as the Mortuary is the place you are going to be returning with a certain frequency. After you are done exploring the Mortuary, you had an awesome introduction not only to the setting but to your condition right of the bat. You won't have much in terms of exposition of what happened but you get learn alot about where you are right now.

Later on, this tendency of giving the player just a little prod on a direction and let him figure out the details was really well done. You go exploring not only to see side content but get to learn about yourself, like when you go to that tavern on Planescape Torment and meet Ignus and Dakkon, you feel you need to explore not to only consume content on a mindless way but that each location might have some tiny clue about you.

It is said that on videogames, the player is the king, this can be grossly misunderstood as the need to pander the player and threat him like a capricious child that need validation but if this is ignored and you as a writer is more worried about your grand story and not much how the player experiences it, this isn't good too.

On Numanuma, your situation is clear from the start and there is little for you to discover exploring. I got surprised how optional the entire content on Sagus is and how quickly you get to know everything you need to know and are pushed on the next location. The plot is in such a hurry to give you information and push you forward. You get to know who the Changing God is, who the Sorrow is, the castoffs and all of that on the first 10 mins of the game that the rest of Sagus Cliff is kinda irrelevant and you only explore it to level up and consume side content.

Worse, they give you exposition on Sagus Cliff about things that will only be relevant much later while they pay little attention to where the player actually is, the Sagus city itself. There is no decent introduction where you are, no decent introduction towards the setting and its rules, too much exposition that could be easily delayed for when it is relevant but is regurgited to the player when the player could care less and wish to know more about the place he is.
 
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
So i guess the less than stellar TTON sales will lead to cut content in the Bards Tale 4 (now without bard, tale remains, for now).

Place your bets on when this will be communicated.

... it is difficult to believe that T:TON sales will always be low, even if it didn't perform well on launch.

Even Blackguards 2 has climbed from 20-40,000 in the first months of launch to above 200,000.
 

Moth

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Yeah, sometimes people are unrealistically passive. I can only assume that the motivation for this was "muh avoidance of combat." Which is hilarious, considering that you have to go through trash mobs to talk to Inifere.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Lots of people are quoting steam sales figures in this thread. Numanera is still no.1 at gog, though I've no idea what this relates to in terms of sales, obv.
 

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