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Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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Ah yes, this is the part of the game's lifetime when the True Hardcore Purists commence obsessive comparasionitis.

You don't get to use the purist card. It's very simple. They promised to deliver a BG2 clone and deliver Sawyer's version of what BG2 should be like. It's a discussion about mechanics. What are the high points of BG2? Mage duels, hard counters and bizarre items. Do you have any of that in PoE? No, you don't. If you consider that they also add wiki-dump writing on top of it, the result is not great.

and [itsyouropinionmaaaan.jpg] we'll see when the game comes out.

Yes, it's just my opinion, and my opinion is true and supported by arguments, yours is false and arbitrary.
 

Lambach

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Just one time I would love to see a developer to actually follow the purist dream, and copypaste everything 1:1 from the original game, including it's god awful shitty combat, the unmatched complexity of it's character systems that have everyone maxing exactly the same attributes, and the amount of bugs that took half a decade of community patches to fix.

Funnily enough, combat in Numanuma is still shit, there's literally no reason not to dump everything into INT and the performance issues definitively need patches (albeit probably not 5 years worth). As an added bonus, so far the companions have been duller than dirt and the writing in general has been sub-par compared to its "spiritual predecessor".

This is basically diet-PST. If it were made by a novice team I might've praised it, but considering all the funds and pedigree Numanuma had at its disposal, it's a spectacular failure.
 

Shadenuat

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Okay, I have to ask because I feel like I'm going crazy here.

Does anyone here actually like the absurd amount of non-dialogue text?
My favorite part about dialogue structure is that instead of using different color for nodes you already explored, writers wrote AGAIN word in every single phrase.
AGAIN
 

Haplo

Prophet
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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Dropping mage duels, harsh counters and overpowered items in PoE is not sticking to the original formula.

Eh, there's plenty of seriously overpowered items in PoE. Not many hard counters perhaps, but having items that boost defense vs an ailment by +30 is pretty damn good and should generally be enough.
Mage duels are indeed notably absent.
Nothing like Gram the sword of grief, which drains one level per hit Or Aslyferund Elven Chain which makes you completely immune to unenchanted weapons is in BG2 is in PoE.

Gram: Pretty neat, though the enemies still have to fail the death save. Wonder how often that happens at the Throne of Bhaal levels when you get the level draining effect.
Aslyferund Elven Chain: Immune to mundane. Really? Too bad almost noone uses unenchanted weapons when you get it. Still a good armor for a mage or bard.

Meanwhile in PoE we have among others:
Stormcaller: A fast hunting bow which has a 10% chance to cast Returning Storm on hit when wielded by a Ranger, which does good damage and stuns enemies in a large radius AND attacks with this bow lower enemy resistance to Shock AND it deals Pierce/Shock damage, whichever the enemies resist less. This item is considered unfair by many and some shun using it in their games, since it stunlocks entire crowds indefinitely, while dealing high damage.
Cipher and Chanter also get strong Shock spells from their respective spellbooks on hit.

Steadfast: a sword that grants Outmanouvering passive to Fighters, Chanters and Wizards. Making them target enemy Willpower rather then Deflection (AC), if it's lower. It also gives immunity to Fear.
For other classes it may cast Sunlance on Hit, Champion's Boon (+10 Might, +10 Per & +5DR) on kill or Restore Major Endurance.

Shod-In-Faith: Boots that cast Consecrated Ground when Critically Hit: a powerful aoe heal-over-time, which mostly eliminates the need for individual healing spells.

Armor, Cloak, Shield which grant Retaliate (which stack).

The Unlabored Blade: a dagger with a small chance to cast a powerfull offensive bouncing spell Firebug on Crit. Crits happen very often though, especially for a barbarian who attacks in a huge aoe. Also +20% attack speed, some other spells per rest, up to Mythic quality.

Ryona's Breastplate: Various powerful defensive buffs

St. Ydwen's Redeemer: already mentioned, kills Vessels (undead) on hit. May also cast Pillar of Faith for a Fighter (damage+knockdown), Divine Mark for a Paladin (damage + AC debuff) or Despondent Blows (ToHit debuff) for Barbarians. Plus Revive 1/rest.

Abydon's Hammer: kills Eyeless on crit and many other powers.

Forgemaster's Gloves: Summons Firebrand 3x per rest. Firebrand is a flaming sword which deals purely Fire damage, has much higher base damage and +0,5 Crit damage modifier. Makes a Barbarian's aoe Carnage explode with each attack, like a human fireball. Is buffed by Scion of Flame. Note it was nerfed, because at launch the sword targeted enemy Reflex defence, rather then Deflection (AC), so was completly overpowered vs most enemies.

Many "regular" artifacts Prone on Crit, Stun on Crit and do other nasty stuff. Note Crits are much easier to achiever in PoE then in IE games. You can buff accuracy in relation to enemy (lowered) deflection by roughly 60 pts. And you have effects with 20-30% Hit to Crit conversion.
So I could list many other items that are VERY strong. But I think that's enough for now.
 

Parabalus

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17,446
No, they keep their promises on their own terms. They make a new system that is bland and unimaginative because Sawyer don’t want players to feel frustrated. It’s bad enough that you are just trying to make a clone of a previous game, but it is even worse to add a bunch of innovations that nobody asked for and only make things worse. If anything, PoE2 will only cement the suspicion that Obsidian doesn’t have what it takes to make a good game. This time the previous excuses of new engine and new system will not be available and the mediocricy will be there for all to see.

Thankfully Sawyer knows better than to listen to the autistic screeching of people like you.

My favorite part about dialogue structure is that instead of using different color for nodes you already explored, writers wrote AGAIN word in every single phrase.
AGAIN

A "lot" of the times the dialogue/interaction is meaningfully different, that's why. I don't like that design too much but that's the reason for it.

Gram: Pretty neat, though the enemies still have to fail the death save. Wonder how often that happens at the Throne of Bhaal levels when you get the level draining effect.
Aslyferund Elven Chain: Immune to mundane. Really? Too bad almost noone uses unenchanted weapons when you get it. Still a good armor for a mage or bard.

.

It's even worse than that, all enemies worth using a level drain on are immune to it. It just shows Chaotic_Heretic has no idea what he's talking about.

Some other very cool items you didn't mention : Spelltongue , the Circlet which causes stuck, Bittercut, Acuan Giamas, The Wind's Arm, Fell Stroke, Silver Flash, Golden Gaze etc...
 
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IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
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Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,870,186
Just one time I would love to see a developer to actually follow the purist dream, and copypaste everything 1:1 from the original game, including it's god awful shitty combat, the unmatched complexity of it's character systems that have everyone maxing exactly the same attributes, and the amount of bugs that took half a decade of community patches to fix.

Funnily enough, combat in Numanuma is still shit, there's literally no reason not to dump everything into INT and the performance issues definitively need patches (albeit probably not 5 years worth). As an added bonus, so far the companions have been duller than dirt and the writing in general has been sub-par compared to its "spiritual predecessor".

This is basically diet-PST. If it were made by a novice team I might've praised it, but considering all the funds and pedigree Numanuma had at its disposal, it's a spectacular failure.

Those are all good points, but whether they changed things for the better is another discussion entirely. I'm quite enjoying it so far, but it's certainly flawed and not what it could have been.

But this purist angle is just utter nonsense when original game, for all its greatness, did so many things wrong, they just had to *gasp* change the formula for all our sanity's sake.

A "lot" of the times the dialogue/interaction is meaningfully different, that's why. I don't like that design too much but that's the reason for it.

Yeah, this. Seeing ASK AGAIN in every dialogue was annoying me as well, but you actually get different answers occasionaly if you pressure people by asking the same question twice. I'm sort of wondering what the underlying mechanic of it is, is it like a hidden skill check or whether some of them have it scripted to give another response if you pressure.
 

GloomFrost

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Dec 9, 2014
Messages
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Location
Northern wastes
I dont have much spare time nowdays, So what is the final verdict? Do i
1- become Fargo's little bitch and buy it now
2-Play original Torment for a 100th time
3-Give a Tyranny another chance
4-Wait for a space soft core porn simulator by bioware
 

Sentinel

Arcane
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Nov 18, 2015
Messages
6,671
Location
Ommadawn
Piracy is rong
I dont have much spare time nowdays, So what is the final verdict? Do i
1- become Fargo's little bitch and buy it now
2-Play original Torment for a 100th time
3-Give a Tyranny another chance
4-Wait for a space soft core porn simulator by bioware
5 - Pirate it, if you like it give the con man your shekels.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,029
Pathfinder: Wrath
What bothers me most about the writing, this was true in PoE as well, is not the purple prose. That's just a mark of a beginner writer and can be overcome with time. It's the reliance on memories and the incessant inquisitive tone of the protagonist. The reliance on memories detaches the narrative from the current reality, which in turn detaches the protagonist from the narrative. Everything is solved via remembering some lost skill (you fix the clock by arranging memories, you remember the bug language in the Underbelly etc.). Too many characters are introduced this way and it's never clear what the hell do they have to do with anything, apart from being a cheap plot insulation. PoE was the same, the main narrative was a series of memories of arguably other people you have nothing to do with. PS:T was focused on the now, the memories only served to reinforce the idea that in different circumstances a person can be completely different AND how they affect TNO NOW. They also dealt with characters we know, like Deionarra's memory in the Sensate HQ, one of the most brilliant memories in the game. The memory itself didn't matter, it was the bloody tears that TNO wept after seeing the memory that were important, as well as Fall-From-Grace's attempt to console him.

In Numanuma, memories are dime-a-dozen, you are being constantly bombarded with them, only filling the role of problem solvers and then disappearing forever, with no lasting effects on the protagonist. The other problem, the inquisitive tone, is simply annoying and it feels like you are on wikipedia, clicking on hyperlinks instead of having conversations. That may be a pet peeve but it's annoying and grinds the pacing to a halt.
 

vortex

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There are a lot of reviewers who don't like the crisis gameplay.
Maybe TTON would be better with tactical real time with pause system similar to Knights of the Old Republic.

EDIT:
It's made on PoE tech so go from that gameplay design and upgrade it, tweak it, improve it...
 
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Sigourn

uooh afficionado
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Messages
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The other problem, the inquisitive tone, is simply annoying and it feels like you are on wikipedia, clicking on hyperlinks instead of having conversations. That may be a pet peeve but it's annoying and grinds the pacing to a halt.

What bothers me the fucking most is that IT'S 2017. It's been 18 years since Planescape: Torment. And conversations still flow pretty much the same: ask, ask, ask, ask. But NPCs almost never demand answers from you. So it really isn't a conversation, it's basically an interrogation. Two. fucking. decades.
 

ArchAngel

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Mar 16, 2015
Messages
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What bothers me most about the writing, this was true in PoE as well, is not the purple prose. That's just a mark of a beginner writer and can be overcome with time. It's the reliance on memories and the incessant inquisitive tone of the protagonist. The reliance on memories detaches the narrative from the current reality, which in turn detaches the protagonist from the narrative. Everything is solved via remembering some lost skill (you fix the clock by arranging memories, you remember the bug language in the Underbelly etc.). Too many characters are introduced this way and it's never clear what the hell do they have to do with anything, apart from being a cheap plot insulation. PoE was the same, the main narrative was a series of memories of arguably other people you have nothing to do with. PS:T was focused on the now, the memories only served to reinforce the idea that in different circumstances a person can be completely different AND how they affect TNO NOW. They also dealt with characters we know, like Deionarra's memory in the Sensate HQ, one of the most brilliant memories in the game. The memory itself didn't matter, it was the bloody tears that TNO wept after seeing the memory that were important, as well as Fall-From-Grace's attempt to console him.

In Numanuma, memories are dime-a-dozen, you are being constantly bombarded with them, only filling the role of problem solvers and then disappearing forever, with no lasting effects on the protagonist. The other problem, the inquisitive tone, is simply annoying and it feels like you are on wikipedia, clicking on hyperlinks instead of having conversations. That may be a pet peeve but it's annoying and grinds the pacing to a halt.
That was to be expected since 3/4 of WL2 conversation text was this.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
In Numanuma, memories are dime-a-dozen, you are being constantly bombarded with them, only filling the role of problem solvers and then disappearing forever, with no lasting effects on the protagonist.
A Deus Ex Machina ;)
 

pippin

Guest
The other problem, the inquisitive tone, is simply annoying and it feels like you are on wikipedia, clicking on hyperlinks instead of having conversations. That may be a pet peeve but it's annoying and grinds the pacing to a halt.

What bothers me the fucking most is that IT'S 2017. It's been 18 years since Planescape: Torment. And conversations still flow pretty much the same: ask, ask, ask, ask. But NPCs almost never demand answers from you. So it really isn't a conversation, it's basically an interrogation. Two. fucking. decades.

this is what you get when you talk to computers and not human beings, though.
PST was still a very complex version of what Ultima 4 was. Hell, every rpg still handles dialogue like U4. It's not two decades, it's three.
 
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This feels a little tangential from the topic though, since there are literally hundreds of adventure games and thousands of RPGs with well defined boundaries between the two....

The obsession about boundaries to the nth degree being what divides the old batch being industry leaders from a bulk of the new badge following foot steps. To be fair, truly outstanding adventure games must be tough as nails to develop, in parts because the mechanics of a boiler-plate point&clicker are fairly threadbare -- there is no looting, leveling up, or blowing the shit up that would ever carry a game itself, and due to the pointing and clicking, there is limited immediately physical sensation to be gained from exploring an environment either. The very thing that allows coders to download Adventure Games Studio and do their own thing with relatively ease backfires with full force when you get to pixel hunt on amateurish back drops for newspapers you could have bought easily from a shop, are forced through two hundred badly written mini speeches that vaguely hint at choice and crazy item combo ridiculous random keys for doors that you could simply have smashed down were this not a boiler plate adventure game [i.e. not Tim Schafer's Full Throttle, where it was realized that this was just not going to work in this one -- and had Ben aptly kicking all the doors down with his trademark badass grim on his face]. There is nothing more mediocre than a mediocre adventure game, and this is from a fan. To quote Ken Williams.

I wanted our people to think in terms of "find a way to entertain a person in front of their computer" - not just to design another adventure game. I always hated the word "adventure game". Phantasmagoria was a horror game. It worked when it scared you, and didn't when it felt like a "puzzle" or "adventure" game. Larry worked when you laughed. It was a "comedy" game. It didn't work when it felt like an "adventure" game. Decide the emotion you are going for; tears, laughter, fear, etc - and go for it. Do what makes the emotion, and blow off the rest. In some cases my own designers forgot the rule, and those were the weak parts of the games."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c.../ken_williams_e.php+&cd=2&hl=de&ct=clnk&gl=de

Wonder if he was thinking cat-hair-moustache in the latter case. :D So in that sense, whilst I agreed with you too that of course, there is markably differences between PST and Monkey Island, King's Quest et all; the guy who points out he got similar emotions from playing Torment than when he was playing an adventure game, he has a point too. Sure for a change of pace you actually get to "role-play" your Nameless One not merely through the stock item/attribute customization, but also through dialogue choice and actions taken, which back then was as unique as it were now. The enjoyment to be had here still is to a huge degree down to the world, characterizations, writing, not completely unlike to many good adventure games -- almost everything else is fairly threadbare in terms of mechanics, including the clunky to on occasion maddening combat bits (Curst Prison urgh). It's Avellone too who admitted he were inspired by Infocom in the old days. I'm not going to get into the argument whether Planescape:Torment is this or that. It's Planescape:Torment. At the end of the day, on the player's end, it bows down to this either way:

If a Sherlock Holmes game can make me feel like a detective, that's great. That qualifies. Just so long as it actually does, rather than simply waiting for me to newspaper/pencil open a door and shout "My god, Holmes! You just found the murder weapon, Lord Lucan and the secret of happiness, all in this broom closet!"

To be fair, it's not all of them. The first ever Frogware Sherlock game was pretty much Mystified, if you get the drift. It's only more recent that they actually appeared to have gotten the message, shame about the QTEs and all that stuff though, surely nobody enjoys those. :D
 
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Popiel

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Yeah, slogging through this fapping-with-keyboard-think'n-we-are-Planescape shit, and...
I've met the Changing God himself. That was a disaster.
This game is ridiculous. It bores me to no end with descriptions of every single one average Joe and Jane and Xeromorph-whatever-genderless-SJW-shit, but when it comes to meeting with
THE CHANGING GOD
it offers something along the lines of O hai, well, nice meetin' ya I guess, and some random, short questions/aswers? This is... stupid.

This game...
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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PS:T was focused on the now, the memories only served to reinforce the idea that in different circumstances a person can be completely different AND how they affect TNO NOW.

No, PS:T was focused on you, your tragic condition and the suspicion that something terrible has happened to you one hundred times. Your past memories are about you and your past choices. The game it’s all about the past, because the past contains the key to understand your curse. The problem of ToN is that the main character is weak, and there is no sense of urgency to decipher your past because everything is handed to you on a platter. No matter how you want to present yourself (“I’m the falling star”, etc.), you are just one of the many castoffs, a regular dude. You are practically banal in ToN. That's what ruined the premise.
 

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