Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Stabwound]

With such a close vote it's kind of worrying that they'll just go with RTwP since it's probably far easier to implement and balance and probably generally more popular overall. I don't expect them to go "turn-based got 1% more votes, so let's do that."

Then again, they have a full-working turn-based combat system designed already with Wasteland 2, so there's that.

 

[AN4RCHID]

With such a close vote it's kind of worrying that they'll just go with RTwP since it's probably far easier to implement and balance and probably generally more popular overall. I don't expect them to go "turn-based got 1% more votes, so let's do that."

1. They already said they were leaning toward turn-based, 2. they can repurpose some of Wasteland 2's combat system, making it easier to implement, 3. if TB wins it would apparently be the more popular option.

 

[Longshanks]

I am taking Torment as an interactive novel so I want the combat to be over ASAP, hence I'm leaning towards RTwP.

There are other games to scratch the gamist itch, and Torment is not one of them.

Exactly my reason for favouring turn-based combat. PST is a contemplative, text heavy game for those who like to read and take their time to consider. It is a game much more amenable to turn-based combat than the frenetic, visceral click-fest of RTWP. This is not a Diablo or Age of Empires where trash mobs abound. Combat encounters should be relatively few and as meaningful as possible. Small encounters work far better with turn-based and allow for a contemplative, thoughtful approach. Small encounters with RTWP combat are either over in seconds (which always tends the number of enemies upwards), or lead to over-inflation of hit-points and a boring hack, hack, hack till the enemies fall, neither of these are fitting for a Torment game.

Aside from that TBC is the natural fit for an RPG. It's by definition more character focused and stat-based, and for me, given that the character is the absolute core of an RPG this objectively makes it the better option. Bring subjectivity into it, and a less pure RPG design focus, and RT or RTWP certainly become viable. These games definitely have a place, but for your "pure" RPG it's TBC all the way.

 

[Invictus]

Ah the children of the night, what sweet music they make...!
What delightful can of worms have the inXile idiots dumped on themselves.
Of course we thought that most of us who played the infinity games though the same combat system woudl carry over and although it was never disscussed we asumed it would be.
But now with the vote sooo close it will lead people to forever say that it was fucked up that their choice never won.
Ah so the true colors of "democracy" and "common vote" are revelaed and will be a mayor clusterfuck for not simply stating that the game would use the same TB combat for Wasteland 2
I myself are just fine with either choice but to be honest I voted TB since we get so few of those nowadays and a game which is not combat focused (as the original Torment was) makes much more sense as TB but still, as politicians in my country say "a close race shows no clear winner"

 

[861129]

They did say they wouldn't just decide simply based on the vote, but rather that the vote and the discussion around it were to get a sense of the arguments on both sides, and the decision would be made on this basis.

 

[Invictus]

It doesn't matter what they choose they are screwed; if the pick the winning choice they will still have to deal with the people upset and if the pick other than the winning choice they will be going against the mayority of their backers :D
Serves them right for playing that retarded game of "you get to choose!"
Offer freedom in design choices like chainmail bikini or japanese platemail with breasts not on the one of the most important systems of the game! Nobody will be happy because the fans (like me) who thought they where getting a new age infinity engine game and that is what they backed will now feel cheated, and the fans of turn based will whine that RTwP is delcine and popamole bullshit...please someone insert Angry Joe's undecifrable "you hadfuckeditup" form his Rome 2 video

 

[tuluse]

Well you should have done a minimum amount of research on what you were pledging for then.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera/posts/444758

 

[Longshanks]

I think the reason they decided on a poll was to check on the viability of TBC. Given that PST had RTWP there weren't any questions over it being accepted by their backers. With a turn-based system already in place for W2, inXile would want to at least look at the possibility of using it for Torment. To make the move though, they'd want to know the strength of the support/resistance to it.

 

[Invictus]

But by even rise the question then? If they had a clear view of what kind of combat they wanted for the game the go ahead and DO IT but by giving the backers the perception of freedom of choice they have dug their own graves because the poll has show that it is a close call and even if they state they wanted TB all along all the people that got riled up wanting the game to use the typical Infinity engine style combat will now feel cheated for having been offered the illusion that their opinion mattered in the first place!
Either way I am fine I like both styles just fine, although for this particular game I would find TB to be the best option but the cat is out of the bag and those who wanted a different combat are not going to take it as well...
PE had it easy since they where quite clear on what kind of game they where planning to recreate and even Wasteland 2 had it quite clear what it was going to be

 

[Infinitron]

If the poll had ended up 80-20 in favor of real-time, they would have changed. So it's not true that the poll is meaningless.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

The company line, IIRC, goes something like this:

"What we really want is a thorough discussion about tb vs rtwp, the poll is just a honeypot to draw more people towards the discussion."

 

[Invictus]

You are correct infinitron but how about 6040 would they have changed it then? As things stand now it arround 5545 that doesn't seem decisive at all...even 6040 is not conclusive.
It is the equivalent of asking my 2 year old nephew if he wants the chocolate or the marshmellow; if it is clear he prefers one over the other he will not even think it but if it is close he will finally take on but won't seem as satisfied with the choice because he will doubt if the other candy he didn't pick might have been better, and if I take the candy he didn't take an tease him about how good it is he will throw a tantrum...wait and see how that ends up alreday with the histrionics of some "backers" asking for refunds and tearing their clothes in the street outside of inXile

 

[Infinitron]

Yes, well, you can't avoid gathering feedback because you're afraid of what the results might be. People will have to live with it. They'd have been pissed off even if there was no poll.

 

[AN4RCHID]

But by even rise the question then? If they had a clear view of what kind of combat they wanted for the game the go ahead and DO IT but by giving the backers the perception of freedom of choice they have dug their own graves because the poll has show that it is a close call and even if they state they wanted TB all along all the people that got riled up wanting the game to use the typical Infinity engine style combat will now feel cheated for having been offered the illusion that their opinion mattered in the first place!

You answered your own question; they're giving backers the perception of having some input on the design of the game. Obviously it would be a disaster to give random idiots on the internet any real say in how the game is made, but by creating a highly visible poll, Fargo and co gain some new talking points on how revolutionary their approach to game making is. If Turn Based wins, at least. And otherwise; they didn't promise anything, so no big loss anyway.

 

[Invictus]

Well maybe you guys are right...but I still think it is a shitstorm that could have been avoided by a simple "hey dudes, name your favorite RPGs here" and gauge the respnse based on the combat system or somehting less likely to cause dissent in the ranks or even say "hey we plan on doing another RPG what kind of combat would you like"

 

[Echo Mirage]

The real shitstorm to come is when the other 60K or so people who cared enough to back the game, but didn't care enough to follow the updates or vote arrive a few months down the line from now when development is underway and the RTWP/TB debate has been settled amicably and suddenly discover they have a very strong opinion on what combat system Inxile should have be using.

Hopefully Inxile can get those heavy handed reminder emails out there to remind them that they need to vote now and settle the debate early. Instead of having the later, and in my opinion much more important debates about the games mechanics becoming a sideshow to angry mobs that deliberately left themselves out of the loop.

Also I have to ask. When is Torment getting a proper forums and site up and running ?

 

[General Maxson]

If they deliver a great game, nobody will care afterwards about all the drama around combat systems. If they deliver a mediocre over-hyped turd, then they'll have problems IMO. First W2 is awaited and then Torment. I guess we'll see.

And I'd really like a TB Torment for multiple reasons, but I will agree to what the majority decides (it's not I can do much about it anyway). Good thing is devs prefer TB too.

 

[Infinitron]

Also I have to ask. When is Torment getting a proper forums and site up and running ?

Forums: http://wasteland.inxile-entertainme...php?f=31&sid=8bea763c614b746c1f19415570cdc146
Site: https://torment.inxile-entertainment.com/

 

[Darkzone]

This is not really a vote, but more of a survey, after all the real deciding power lies within InXile. Even if RTwP would win with 60%, they would go for TB, if they wanted.
But this survey presents the worst case, for InXile. They will no matter the choice based on the current numbers in the result piss off about 35% to 40% of the people, with the possiblity of loosing around 200k of sales.
Or they implement both systems. It is possible, i have evaluated this, based on the discret event simulation. And by presenting this as their love for the community they would even gain popularity. Now what move in their turn will InXile choose?

 

[Echo Mirage]

If they deliver a great game, nobody will care afterwards about all the drama around combat systems. If they deliver a mediocre over-hyped turd, then they'll have problems IMO. First W2 is awaited and then Torment. I guess we'll see.

And I'd really like a TB Torment for multiple reasons, but I will agree to what the majority decides (it's not I can do much about it anyway). Good thing is devs prefer TB too.

I hope you're right. I can only speak from my knowledge and time on the Deus ex human revolution forums where everyone had long gotten past the debate and the fact that they would be using a third person snap to cover system. Then the older and newer posters who had stop following development arrived and started waving flags declaring DXHR a true DX game only to suddenly discover all the things we had been forced to get over. After that it was like a malignant tumor that would open a black hole in the forums every few months filled with rage and massive posts explaining the stupidity of the system. And no matter how many times we told them that they were arguing the same argument as several other people before them they continued to beat the dead horse. And everything else suffered for it. That isn't what I want to see here. Hopefully Inxile can settle this early so when one of the development team comes you us with a controversial idea and asks us to debate its merits it won't get sidelined by the continuous iron curtain falling across the forums.

Also I have to ask. When is Torment getting a proper forums and site up and running ?

Forums: http://wasteland.inxile-entertainme...php?f=31&sid=8bea763c614b746c1f19415570cdc146
Site: https://torment.inxile-entertainment.com/

Thank you

 

[imweasel]

Implementing both systems or some kind of hybrid will result in a complete clusterfuck.

Either TB or RTwP are viable options, some kind of bullshit TB-RTwP hybrid is not.

 

[AN4RCHID]

But this survey presents the worst case, for InXile. They will no matter the choice based on the current numbers in the result piss off about 35% to 40% of the people, with the possiblity of loosing around 200k of sales.

Gamers complain a lot, but it doesn't stop them buying. Especially in this case, as everyone involved in this 'drama' has already bought the game.

Implementing both systems or some kind of hybrid will result in a complete clusterfuck.

Yeah, fuck that. Of all their options that would be the worst. Fortunately, I haven't read anything that would make me think they're considering such an option.

 

[Mrowak]

This is not really a vote, but more of a survey, after all the real deciding power lies within InXile. Even if RTwP would win with 60%, they would go for TB, if they wanted.
But this survey presents the worst case, for InXile. They will no matter the choice based on the current numbers in the result piss off about 35% to 40% of the people, with the possiblity of loosing around 200k of sales.
Or they implement both systems. It is possible, i have evaluated this, based on the discret event simulation. And by presenting this as their love for the community they would even gain popularity. Now what move in their turn will InXile choose?

It' very unlikely that they could implement both system and maintain good quality of combat. The reason is both system require different approach to encounter design - one that would work in TB would be mediocre in RT at best and vice versa.

 

[Darkzone]

Says the man who does not know nothing about mathematics and programming and etc.
But this would be no hybrid, it would be both TB and RTwP, like with a toggle you can only play one system at the time. Only a slight change of perspecive no APs but Seconds for possible actions, time in seconds would be the necessary measurment for a derivation.
There is a simple mathematics of linear transforamtion, that makes this possible.

AN4RCHID you are right about the current 80k backers, but there are a lot more people out there, like a 400k to 700k that would buy the game.

 

[Darkzone]

Mrowak: No. Because of the mathematical background of this problem, i can say no. "Time" allways think time and how it applies in TB, how is a round executed what does the time mean in the context of TB.
I have made discrete event simulation, have worked with them and did emulate continuous processes with them.