Torment: Tides of Numenera crisis concept

[Ninjerk]

As for violence, as ive already said - it depends on what it is used for.
Examples: Is it self defense? Are you protecting someone else and for which reasons? Goodness of your heart? The right thing to do? Returning a favor? Purely business? Or even more complicated - purely business to achieve another goal which may not be business like at all. Vengeance? Passion? Justice zeal? Lethal or non-lethal (both may have diverse consequences).

I think if the issue is thought about in this way - it could play nicely with a much wider array of theoretical Tide tangents.
This would also enable the team to ascribe a Tide affinity to the player well after the violent deed (or combat) itself took place - depending on other parameters of the quest and further choices and consequences the player achieved.
Say... closer to, or at the very end of any specific Crisis, instead of at the moment when violence is perpetrated.

Your comments raise a very important point, and highlight something that distinguishes the Tides from, say, D&D's alignment system. The Tides don't care about your intentions. They only care about your actions. We made this choice quite deliberately, with one reason being that we (i.e., the game) can't read your mind. We only know that you did something, not why you did it. (Exception: if you choose, for example, a "(Lie)" or "(Truth)" dialogue option, then you've told us something about your intentions.) With the Tides judging player actions, changes to one's Tides should more often match what the player is expecting. (Note that my personification of the Tides here is just because of how I like to write; you shouldn't interpret this to mean that the Tides are necessarily alive.)

Coming from morality systems like the Ultima virtues and D&D alignment, I've found the change in mindset to think about actions instead of intent to be trickier than I had expected. Clearly communicating the nature of the Tides to players is another one of our challenges. (This reminds me that we should probably talk about the Tides in more detail in a future update as we have more to say about them then we have thus far.)

The question of when/how to reveal any changes to your Tides is an ongoing consideration. (Along these lines, one thing we're thinking of is having a Skill whose effects include more immediate/precise feedback on Tide changes. In this way, the default experience can be more natural, but someone who does want to meta-game the Tides more can make an in-game choice to do so. Even so, I agree with you and we're favoring not-quite-immediate effects/feedback.)

I hope you do favor quality over quantity. If the choices and consequences are well done, game length will be increased from multiple playthroughs. Also, Torment is a game that says "tight experience" to me more than "lots of stuff to do". It's like the inverse of the Elder Scrolls.

I agree.

I hope you generally go more with general abilities that can be used systematically. To me that's one of the main differences between RPGs and adventure games. In adventure games, anything you can do is a specific context sensitive action, while RPGs have systems the player can interact with. It gives a much stronger feeling that the player is in control (which isn't necessary in an adventure game).

On the other hand, I've read people saying both Fallout and Planescape: Torment are RPG-adventure hybrids or RPGs with adventure game elements. So maybe adventure elements aren't a bad thing.

We are favoring abilities that can be used systematically, but we are also appreciating the similarities of Planescape: Torment to adventure games and are finding some design inspiration from that genre as well. (It will feel like an RPG, though.)

The Tides sound kind of like gods in some of the older pantheistic religions in that they signify a number of things at once equally (and they care little for context).

I'm curious as to whether the PC's Tidal alignment will be effected by mundane actions within the game (if at all)--for instance, will the main character be given a Red point (or fraction thereof) when he attacks or kills another living being, or receive an amount of Indigo "points" when making a transaction with a merchant (as Indigo contains "Compromise" in the diagram)?

 

[hiver]

Your comments raise a very important point, and highlight something that distinguishes the Tides from, say, D&D's alignment system. The Tides don't care about your intentions. They only care about your actions. We made this choice quite deliberately, with one reason being that we (i.e., the game) can't read your mind. We only know that you did something, not why you did it. (Exception: if you choose, for example, a "(Lie)" or "(Truth)" dialogue option, then you've told us something about your intentions.) With the Tides judging player actions, changes to one's Tides should more often match what the player is expecting. (Note that my personification of the Tides here is just because of how I like to write; you shouldn't interpret this to mean that the Tides are necessarily alive.)

Coming from morality systems like the Ultima virtues and D&D alignment, I've found the change in mindset to think about actions instead of intent to be trickier than I had expected. Clearly communicating the nature of the Tides to players is another one of our challenges. (This reminds me that we should probably talk about the Tides in more detail in a future update as we have more to say about them then we have thus far.)

The question of when/how to reveal any changes to your Tides is an ongoing consideration. (Along these lines, one thing we're thinking of is having a Skill whose effects include more immediate/precise feedback on Tide changes. In this way, the default experience can be more natural, but someone who does want to meta-game the Tides more can make an in-game choice to do so. Even so, I agree with you and we're favoring not-quite-immediate effects/feedback.)

Thanks Kevin.

There is really no need to explain Tides to me. My blood is half sea.
I understand the natural system and the game concept very well, i think - and i agree it should not act as some kind of direct "morality - judgement" system. I also hope you guys will come up with good way to present it all as a fluid, ever in motion, natural system. Governed by celestial bodies and earthly features as it is in reality.
A mysterious force operating "behind the scenes" - not something you can grasp or hold physically - or even affect that easily.
It probably is a good idea to talk about it more to the rest of the backers and general fandom, though. (looks at ninjajerk post above... - obviously)

However, there seems to be some sort of reactive system there. Our actions throughout the game will influence the Tides in some way. And the player will get some sort of Tidal affinity or "alignment".

Im just worried that using "violence" will be delegated to a single Tide, so i made a suggestion how to maybe deal with that "problem" and turn it into something far more diverse and not so two dimensional, or blatant and simplistic (and wrong) as that simplified example in Crises looked, based on what little specifics we got so far.
Im happy to hear you guys dont intend to make it so simple, but it got me thinking about the issue.

After considering all angles, the only possible solution i can come to is that Tide affiliation needs to be presented in the game as a delayed consequences that considers what player achieved in whole crises, instead of judging each specific immediate action.
(though some extreme momentary actions could be taken into account - possibly, to calculate the overall err... "score")
From that - my suggestion of thinking about the use of violence force depending on the end result of any particular crises. And consequences of any crises "quest" - and the way they will probably interact with one another in the overall narrative.

This has several benefits:

- It removes the necessity to judge each and every single immediate action the player makes - in general.

- It makes it harder for players to meta the game, to save-scum and generally to worry about each action they take - instead of just playing.

- It helps-reinforces-allows the players just to play their own way - instead of trying to second guess the "Tide result".

- It avoids the need to ascribe morality judgement for each action from you Devs and from the game itself - thus alleviating needless pressure form you guys.

- It makes all things much less two-dimensional, shallow and/or simplistic.

- It fits very much with the natural theme, style and diversity of the concept of Tides themselves.

- It allows the players to use "violence" (i would prefer term 'Force', really) in achieving many different outcomes without corralling them into sense of being bad or evil or punished just because they used force - even for some small thing during the crises.

- It fits with the main themes and the setting and the concept of the Torment game much more then DnD alignment system.


- also, i wouldnt agree that having a skill that allows the players to see immediate Tide "score" is a good way to go about this. Even if its "optional", since that then will force you guys to ascribe some sort of judgement on each and every action the player can possibly take - which is a load of work for, practically... nothing good.
And, in my mind, it would work against some of the main themes and concepts of the whole Tide and Torment range.


As for visual representation of my idea - concept, im imagining some sort of "globe" or round mirror you can see through, into a surface of the sea slowly, slowly, inexorably rising, changing colors as you play through the game and deal with different crises.
Not that im suggesting having such a meter in the game. Its just a visualization of this suggestion of mine i have in my head.

And thats another reason why i think Tides should take time to rise or change.
Im not sure if im explaining myself sufficiently here but,... looking at it like this, it just seems to... fit.

(of course, as i mentioned - you can still have some specific immediate actions result in the bigger influence on the Tides, where it would really be fitting from the narrative and common sense perspective - and this would then make things even more diverse)


-EDIT-

This doesn't mean you will judge "why" some player did something. The "why" will remain inside the players head.
In my thinking it would help the team assort the effects of player actions more easily into the respectable Tides alignment - through the consequences of players actions. By using the ultimate results and consequences of crises and quests.

-

We are favoring abilities that can be used systematically, but we are also appreciating the similarities of Planescape: Torment to adventure games and are finding some design inspiration from that genre as well. (It will feel like an RPG, though.)

Adventure was always a part of RPGs.
The sense of striding into unknown, the sense of discovery, the sense of overcoming adversity - based on your (characters) personal skills and abilities.

 

[Midair]

5-6 hours of game play would definitely feel like a let down for me.

I would consider it sufficient to have text equal to a medium size novel per playthrough, plus 5-6 hours of crafted encounters.

 

[CMcC]

The Tides sound kind of like gods in some of the older pantheistic religions in that they signify a number of things at once equally (and they care little for context).

I'm curious as to whether the PC's Tidal alignment will be effected by mundane actions within the game (if at all)--for instance, will the main character be given a Red point (or fraction thereof) when he attacks or kills another living being, or receive an amount of Indigo "points" when making a transaction with a merchant (as Indigo contains "Compromise" in the diagram)?

No, mundane actions won't have an effect. No one remembers you for the time you made exact change for a customer or how thinly you smiled at someone in the street. Tidal effects will be for more memorable acts.

 

[Ninjerk]

The Tides sound kind of like gods in some of the older pantheistic religions in that they signify a number of things at once equally (and they care little for context).

I'm curious as to whether the PC's Tidal alignment will be effected by mundane actions within the game (if at all)--for instance, will the main character be given a Red point (or fraction thereof) when he attacks or kills another living being, or receive an amount of Indigo "points" when making a transaction with a merchant (as Indigo contains "Compromise" in the diagram)?

No, mundane actions won't have an effect. No one remembers you for the time you made exact change for a customer or how thinly you smiled at someone in the street. Tidal effects will be for more memorable acts.

That's disappointing.

 

[Lancehead]

Why? The game is probably going to be full of handcrafted unique content, not reproducible generic content fuelled by systems. So there isn't much reason to regulate mundane, low-level actions.

 

[Ninjerk]

I think people's habits say more about them than a handful of choices in their lives, but I understand the scope of the game is different.

 

[tuluse]

Even if that's true, mundane actions in rpgs don't establish habits. They just establish how the player interacts with what the designers have created. These are always extremely artificial.

 

[Ninjerk]

I'm not getting your point.

 

[tuluse]

Mundane decisions don't provide meaningful information on what the player thinks about the world or characters.

 

[Ninjerk]

I would disagree generally, but I suppose the scope of the game could effect that.

 

[Adam Heine]

The Tides sound kind of like gods in some of the older pantheistic religions in that they signify a number of things at once equally (and they care little for context).

I'm curious as to whether the PC's Tidal alignment will be effected by mundane actions within the game (if at all)--for instance, will the main character be given a Red point (or fraction thereof) when he attacks or kills another living being, or receive an amount of Indigo "points" when making a transaction with a merchant (as Indigo contains "Compromise" in the diagram)?

It kinda depends on what you mean by mundane actions. Making a transaction with a merchant wouldn't qualify, because if it did then every player would have high Indigo (because seriously, who doesn't visit the shops?). Likewise, identifying items wouldn't qualify you for Blue; even though it is a means of gaining more knowledge, the gameplay reasons for identification are so strong that nobody would not identify items.

The Tides are increased when you make real choices. So attacking or killing, when you had other choices available to you, probably will affect your Tides (though not necessarily Red; it may depend on context). If you had a chance to cheat a merchant or deal with him honestly -- especially if the game gives you strong reasons to cheat him (he's cheating you, for example) -- then either choice could also affect the Tides. So mundane actions could theoretically affect the Tides, but only if those actions involved a real choice. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Ninjerk]

It does.

 

[hiver]

Ninjerk

I would suggest thinking about tides more in the sense of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tide
A natural complex system that is ever in flux.

Mundane decisions don't provide meaningful information on what the player thinks about the world or characters.

Nor the players personal interactions with any of those. Very often we do various things just because some small or bigger necessity demands it or makes a specific action preferable or simply necessary.
This does not say anything about our motivations, philosophy or anything else - well, except that we are subservient to reality, instead of being gods.

 

[Ninjerk]

I think I've been trying to shoehorn my own ideas into the Tides without really understanding them. I just went back and reread the Kickstarter blurb about them and Legacy, and I guess I can't really say much more until I see how they're implemented.

 

[hiver]

The Tides are increased when you make real choices. So attacking or killing, when you had other choices available to you, probably will affect your Tides (though not necessarily Red; it may depend on context). If you had a chance to cheat a merchant or deal with him honestly -- especially if the game gives you strong reasons to cheat him (he's cheating you, for example) -- then either choice could also affect the Tides. So mundane actions could theoretically affect the Tides, but only if those actions involved a real choice. Hope that makes sense.

Makes sense to me too.

- edit -

But i still think that what i suggested, tried to explain above, is worth thinking about.

Admittedly, if the game would use only the end results of quests and crises to judge Tidal alignment it would be relatively easy to slip into Machiavellian "ends justify the means" logic. Which would work against the main theme of the story and the concept of Tides and Torment game.


But that only happens if such a mechanic is considered in extreme ways - if it was the main overall, main reactive mechanic. Obviously it fits with one of the Tides as they were presented.

I did say you can still use important immediate actions and now, thinking about it all - it seems even more important and appropriate to do it.
Using both is better then using just one of them.
While keeping in mind that any single relatively smaller action should not have as big influence on the Tide, as whole crises or quests. Some would, of course, when its appropriate - but not all.

Say, for example, thinking about it in terms of natural Tides... smaller actions would have as much influence on the game Tide as throwing rocks in the sea would on the natural Tide.
But then, if that small rock has consequences... if you throw it into a side of a mountain... in some cases you can cause an avalanche.
Sometimes, if you remove a small thing - a damn breaks down and there is a flood. But only sometimes, of course - it shouldnt be an easy thing to do.


...hmm... maybe the "tidal rating" can also be diversified in this way. Some actions could have immediate consequence for the Tides and some could have delayed consequences. (though i would argue that most of these consequences need to be delayed)

I still think it would not be a good idea to allow players to see Tidal shifts right away, because that would almost force players to meta the game - choosing options that strengthen the Tide they personally prefer instead of playing and thinking about the story itself.



All together, a daunting task for you guys. It wont be easy to get all of this right. Of course.
But thats the beauty of it. Good things are hard to come by, eh? And they are worth the effort.
And you do have a very talented team, plus the Tides themselves are not rigid simplified concepts which gives you room to play with.

I envy you guys so much.