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Timesinks Explained

Sol Invictus

Erudite
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Oct 19, 2002
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I copied/pasted this from a reply I made to a thread pertaining to the 'slowness' of combat in WOW on the WOW forum:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a ... dID=252382

Here's the post I'm replying to:
From my experience so far the game has allot of downtime, in fact about 40% of my game time is drinking/eating/healing. It feels like the downtime is only there to slow down the pace of leveling. It takes me roughly 60 seconds for me to kill 2 monsters my level, and 40 seconds drinking to get back my mana.

Rather than forcing so much downtime how about upping the affect of spirit, and balancing monster XP so a soloist can steadily churn through monsters their own level without forcing them to constantly drink/eat.

and
They eliminated combat drinking/eating for balance reasons... why cant it be instant when out of combat? Wh is downtime needed? I can understand nort wanting prepetual mana trivializing encounters but what is the reason for forcing downtime outside of combat? ambiance?

People, these are what's known as timesinks. Combat's harder, so you'll need skills like First Aid (which has been slowed down) and Alchemy for potions in order to make up for the increased difficulty.

In practical terms, all these things merely represent are time and money sinks. It takes time to raise your skills and money to get the ingredients. You can hunt for the ingredients on your own, but that takes time, and thus reduces the money you accumulate when you actually hunt.

All MMORPGs are made this way, with the sole exception of Guild Wars (which bills itself as a CORPG), in which healing is nearly instant and mana and health regenerate completely to full in 5 seconds outside of/between combat situations.

Timesinks exist for a purpose: to keep people playing at a very slow rate in order to extend the 'length' of the game, or the amount of time it takes to reach the end-game, which Blizzard has not yet completed. Ultima Online never had this when it was first implemented but during EQ's development, SOE/Verant decided it was a good idea to keep people playing for as long as possible before they hit the endgame. So rather than being able to play the game at a fast pace and creating multiple characters (like UO and Diablo 2) people would be more inclined to stick to a single character, invest time in it and eventually become so attached to it (like a second skin) to a point which they develop a psychological bond with their character, that they would never, ever abandon it. Not even after years.

You'll notice why the SOE forums are generally populated with posts concerning poor/boring gameplay mechanics but none of these issues are ever addressed, because the players who are way too attached to the game will never quit and provide a constant flowing resource for SOE, like how drug addicts provide their dealers with a constant source of income, even as much as they grow to dislike what they're doing.

Most people are generally too intellectually shallow to realize how addicted they are to the game until it's too late. By then, they're already hooked.






Thoughts?
 

Human Shield

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I think their is a difference between character advancement and timesinks. As long as developers put an exgerated leveling system like in single-player games (because in-game time is different from real time, but not in MMORPGs). And if the only thing to do is to kill monsters, craft things to kill, chat and have useless homes then it is a treadmill.

But taking a while to heal to full health, taking a while to get better items can be well-done. I listed my idea before.
 

errorcode

Liturgist
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Jul 15, 2004
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Timesinks are improtant to MMPs because they give the game the ability to space content. If you could churn through monsters at a fast rate without having to pause for any downtime, you'd encounter everything and grow bored with it much quicker. With downtime, the content burnout is alleviated some.

It's not a great system, but it allows designers to to keep the content they have "Fresh" for longer.
 

DamnElfGirl

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Canuckskiville
I like a bit of downtime in MMORPGs, simply because groups are more fun when people can't pull constantly, and there's time to talk. But if WoW is really trying to be a solid, quest-based title rather than grind-based, there's no need for much downtime. Those of us who are interested in the quests and setting will take our time with the game and make good friends along the way. The people who would try to grind for experience if you gave them The Longest Journey aren't going to change their ways. I was hoping Blizzard was smart enough to ignore those people and concentrate on making a game that's fun for most people. We'll see how it shapes up in the end.[/i]
 

Human Shield

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VA, USA
errorcode said:
Timesinks are improtant to MMPs because they give the game the ability to space content. If you could churn through monsters at a fast rate without having to pause for any downtime, you'd encounter everything and grow bored with it much quicker. With downtime, the content burnout is alleviated some.

It's not a great system, but it allows designers to to keep the content they have "Fresh" for longer.

Why are you churning through monsters in the first place?
 

Sol Invictus

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The solution to the whole 'churning through monsters' problem is simply to add a whole lot more monsters, but instead of beefing them up - just make them weaker, so the player feels heroic for slaughtering hordes of them.

Bioware (OMG!) does an extremely good job at this and it's probably the reason why their games are perceived as so much more 'fun', 'enjoyable', and 'exciting' than a lot of other games, as you mainly mow down hordes upon hordes of weaker monsters while garnering plenty of experience and rewards while you're at it. Casual gamers love this, because they are feeling stimulated the entire time. People like myself (and casual gamers) don't care much about the 'long term goal' of getting some superweapon that only some dumb EQ geek would care about. All we care about is killing things at a brisk pace, doing heroic stuff, and if we do get a sword - it'll only add to our killing ability, instead of making us only marginally stronger.

I can see now, why I'd prefer to buy a Bioware game over any stupid MMORPG.

At this point, Neverwinter Nights is a superior game to WOW.
 

errorcode

Liturgist
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Jul 15, 2004
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Seattle
i'm not advocating "churning though monster", just playing devil's advocate.

The problem with just adding more monsters is that the more creatures on a server, the more lag becomes a problem. If you triple the number of monsters in a zone and let players kill them faster, then you have a two-headed problem of having alot of active creatures and active spawners replacing the dead monsters. That will seriously cause the server to start having issues, especially if you start having large groups pf players in the zone.

I personally hate how most MMPs have handled grinding and forced down-time.
 

Sol Invictus

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Meh.

Lag isn't the issue, errorcode. Blizzard intends to add Raid Zones and Battlegrounds which are grossly populated with monsters, so I don't think increasing server's burden of handling additional pathfinding or spawn nodes is going to pose any problem.

As it is, the server's shutting down every 10 minutes because of various bugs, but it never, ever lags.

Besides, it's Blizzard we're talking about. I'm sure they can afford a few more servers.

I don't see what the problem would be in implementing instances built for 1-2 players, either. That would definitely work.

I think they are just inept and lazy.
 

Ortchel

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Messages
830
I know what you mean about becoming psychologically bonded to your character. I only played Star Wars Galaxies briefly, less than a month and I still think about my character at odd times. I even sort of 'miss' it, if you can call it that, which is strange, since I hated everything else about the game.
 

Limorkil

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Messages
304
My favorite timesink idea was in Gemstone III. When you earned XP it went into a temporary pool that had an upper limit. Over time you earned the XP and it flowed from the temporary pool to your character. If you spent all the time hunting you would gain XP slowly because you did not rest to let the temporary pool empty. All the extra XP you earned while the pool was full was lost. The game explanation behind this idea was that you could only learn so much in a day, based on your intelligence. (There were actually a couple of stats that governed how quickly you absorbed XP).

The best thing about that system was that no-one lost out or got bored. If you wanted to keep fighting you could, you just couldn't earn more than a certain amount of XP per hour. If you wanted to sit in a safe place and talk, you could do that, and you would empty your pool faster which meant that you were actually still earning XP while sitting around chatting. That was the best thing about it: it encouraged people to roleplay rather than just fight fight fight. Myself and many others would go out, kill stuff for half and hour, then head back to town and sit in the square, talking, or go to the tavern for a drink, or go look round the shops to see if anyone had sold anything we wanted. There was none of this activate the crafting macro and take a break crap.
 

Sol Invictus

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Gemstone III, despite its pointlessness, had a lot of good things going for it. Namely the XP system you mentioned. It certainly encouraged gameplay besides killing shit and raiding instance vaults for XP & loot. In World of Warcraft and any other EQ-like MMORPG, time spent not adventuring is wasted time, and you really feel it if you have a 6 month subscription. It is as if you are not getting your money's worth for the amount you paid in advance to play. That's a hook, and there's a reason I refuse to play games like WOW anymore.

World of Warcraft used to have a system that wasn't anywhere as good as Gemstone III's XP pool, but what it did was limit the amount of time you would spend 'grinding' on monsters because after an hour you would drop from a fully rested state to a normal state, and after some time you would become tired and gain around 25% exp from monsters. It worked well, but the powergamers complained and Blizzard went and hired EQ expansion developers to work on the rest of the game after some of the early designers left for greener pastures (read: ArenaNet) and they got rid of the system so powergamers could advance by grinding as much as they liked.

Now, it's just another EQ clone.
 

DarkSign

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Im currently in TS with a group of 10 guildmates who are playing WoW as we speak and they've said that the down-time in WoW is negligible at most.

I do agree with Exit that MMOs should give you more "gun-fodder" to make the experience enjoyable though.
 

Sol Invictus

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Negligable? Ha ha. Play Guild Wars. There's no down-time whatsoever.

Other plusses in Guild Wars:
* it's not ugly
* PVP is actually fun
* gameplay can be about skill and skill choices, not treadmilling like a lamer who sits in his basement 24/7
* no monthly fee
* it's not ugly
 

DarkSign

Erudite
Joined
Jul 24, 2004
Messages
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Location
Shepardizing caselaw with the F5 button.
Exitium said:
Negligable? Ha ha. Play Guild Wars. There's no down-time whatsoever.

Other plusses in Guild Wars:
* it's not ugly
* PVP is actually fun
* gameplay can be about skill and skill choices, not treadmilling like a lamer who sits in his basement 24/7
* no monthly fee
* it's not ugly

Hey ...you're preaching to the choir. I love GW. Id really like to be able to play it atm....but I didnt get one of those nifty keys.
 

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