Thoughts on The White March Expansion

[Lhynn]

John Walker/bad player tears suggest that some understanding of the system is necessary.

Sure, send your tank first.
Let me elaborate, it all comes down to pairing your higher numbers against their lower numbers. Knowing this the only reasonable thing to do is keeping or increasing your high numbers while decreasing their low numbers. But this is not knowing the system, you dont need to know about interrupts, or weapon damage types and enemy resistances and all that crap. You only need a bit of common sense to get by even on the highest difficulty.

Pathfinder is the most popular tabletop RPG.

Tell me how that makes it not shit, please.

There is no way anyone's going to make a game with 2e's system today (that isn't some Beamdog expansion pack cash-in).

5e is a much better system in pnp. Tho i do like 3.5 for crpgs due to the amount of possibilities for char building you got, which end up being half the fun and giving the game tons of replayability.

2nd edition is good, if too convoluted, i do believe thats what makes it so enjoyable to play in tho, it reflects a mentality that made the game feel and play in a way that newer systems are unable to evoke. Like with many things, you dont realize what you lost till you experience it.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

TL;DR

 

[Roguey]

5e is a much better system in pnp.

Sneak attack immunities. are. dead.

Also while researching this I found out that regular flanking doesn't exist in 5e, it's something only rogues can take advantage of (for sneak attack damage, not extra accuracy).

 

[Lhynn]

Sneak attack immunities. are. dead.

Dont mean its a good idea.

Also while researching this I found out that regular flanking doesn't exist in 5e, it's something only rogues can take advantage of (for sneak attack damage, not extra accuracy).

Yup, its a good mechanic. 5e does away with many unnecessary rules in favor of a tighter narrative and giving more power to the DM. I can for example, rule that slimes are immune to sneak attacks and the system is 100% behind me as the DM.
Some creatures, like kobolds, have special pack tactics that give them advantage when attacking a target another member of the group is attacking.
Accuracy in the system is bound to level, and the exact same for everyone, provided they know how to use it. Its kind of brilliant, and it achieves what sawyer wanted to do with his own system in many many ways.

 

[Roguey]

Pretty sure you can houserule any RPG with the system being behind you 100%....

 

[Lhynn]

Try to do it mid adventure on 3.5 and your players will have your head. It gave too much power to them.

 

[Shevek]

Try to do it mid adventure on 3.5 and your players will have your head. It gave too much power to them.

With the way you guys roll for stats, who cares?

 

[Lhynn]

With the way you guys roll for stats, who cares?

Not the same group. Not even people that know eachother, been DMing these guys for like 3 years now.

Lhynn was created a long time ago.

 

[ArchAngel]

The fire giant example was in fact a question from Infinitron.



Not even Pathfinder does this. Backstab-immune enemies are over.

If you are going to be a smart ass maybe you should make sure you are right first?
The person you quoted mentions slimes and in Pathfinder you cannot sneak attack slimes or any other creature without discernable critical places to hit. That includes incorporeal undead and I think Elementals (as they don't really need humanoid body parts but form those to fight and can reform even if you do damage to one).

So yea, slimes being immune to things like knockdown or sneak attack should be in 3.0.

 

[Florian Gheorghe]

LOL, IGN scores the game 9 out of 10 : The Codex does not like the game. IGN gives 6.8 to The White March part 1 , Codex likes the expansion. :D
My phone is behaving wierd with so much text on Tapatalk Thank you AwesomeButton for this!

 

[Roguey]

The person you quoted mentions slimes and in Pathfinder you cannot sneak attack slimes or any other creature without discernable critical places to hit. That includes incorporeal undead and I think Elementals (as they don't really need humanoid body parts but form those to fight and can reform even if you do damage to one).

Ha, what dumb pseudosimmy garbage. "We're going to allow sneak attacks against undead and constructs but not ~these specific creatures~." Looks like 5e beats Pathfinder in at least one area.

I'd only accept an immunity to sneak attacks if it's a system where a sneak attack will immediately incapacitate/kill a person, which is what striking a vital area would do. Otherwise it's, as I said, pseudosimmy garbage.

It also seems really unlikely to me that Josh will compile a list of ad hoc immunities rather than outright go for "this creature is immune to all spells and abilities that target fortitude/reflex/will."

 

[ArchAngel]

Ha, what dumb pseudosimmy garbage. "We're going to allow sneak attacks against undead and constructs but not ~these specific creatures~." Looks like 5e beats Pathfinder in at least one area.

I'd only accept an immunity to sneak attacks if it's a system where a sneak attack will immediately incapacitate/kill a person, which is what striking a vital area would do. Otherwise it's, as I said, pseudosimmy garbage.

It also seems really unlikely to me that Josh will compile a list of ad hoc immunities rather than outright go for "this creature is immune to all spells and abilities that target fortitude/reflex/will."

Maybe it is to you but they changed sneak attack into critical hit kind of ability and use simulationist logic on it. If you chop off a zombi's hand he cannot attack you with it so that is a sneak attack, ooze has no body parts that sneak attack can do extra damage on.
And incorporeal undead are just magical mists in a form that certainly don't have body parts to destroy or chop off.

And I think even in 5e not everyone can be sneak attacked. I thought wrong.

 

[Copper]

I'm struggling to see the point here.

I'm not going to defend sneak-attacks as genius design, but the point of most hard counters is is typically (a) shaking up players or (b) content gating (You must get the +5 sword to defeat the monster). Both can be handled well or handled poorly, depending on the designer. So having enemies that flat-out ignore a class's big strength is a big shake-up, just as something like Mindflayers is intended to shake up traditional front/backline compositions. Sure, if it's a NWN2 style campaign filled with undead trash mobs, a traditional rogue is sub-par, damage-wise, but with a bit of creative design work could still do stuff using stealth and traps, for instance, or other environmental interactions, or simply fall back to more support or magic item use.

 

[Roguey]

If you chop off a zombi's hand he cannot attack you with it so that is a sneak attack

As I said, in D&D and its derivatives, sneak attacks don't actually incapacitate enemies, they just take off more hitpoints.

 

[Lhynn]

As I said, in D&D and its derivatives, sneak attacks don't actually incapacitate enemies, they just take off more hitpoints.

But theres a reason for them to take off more hitpoints. a reason that when cannot be met, shouldnt substract said hitpoints.

 

[Roguey]

But theres a reason for them to take off more hitpoints. a reason that when cannot be met, shouldnt substract said hitpoints.

No there isn't. Pathfinder conceded "Yeah this mechanic is stupid and only specifically punishes rogues for no particular reason other than grognards throwing a fit because of their wobbly sense of versimilitude that doesn't actually have anything to do with reality" but they went with a dumb compromise instead of going all the way.

 

[Lhynn]

No there isn't. Pathfinder conceded "Yeah this mechanic is stupid and only specifically punishes rogues for no particular reason other than grognards throwing a fit because of their wobbly sense of versimilitude that doesn't actually have anything to do with reality" but they went with a dumb compromise instead of going all the way.

Bullshit, this oversimplifying crap for the sake of making it easier on retards detracts from gameplay and you should fucking know it by now. If a class is entirely useless against an enemy so fucking what? either get people to help you, or find another way on your own.

Also pathfinder crowd is among the most retarded crowd in the PnP world. its dumbfucks that fail to acknowledge that the core of the system is whats rotten, not the details of some classes advancement.
All in the name of customization as a part of character progression, which is frankly overrated in a PnP environment, want to get cool stuff? get them by playing the game, not just leveling a character.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I'm not an expert in any PnP system, what I know about D&D I know it (in chronological order) from CYOA books (Blood Sword series), playing the IE games, NWN, reading player's handbooks for D&D 3 and 4, playing NWN2. I've played very little PnP, never finished a campaign.

That being said, the fact I can backstab oozes and undead (or poison undead) made no sense to me in PoE, and actually confused me, since intuitively, I was expecting that wouldn't be possible. I think that's another example of "uniformity in the ruleset"/"nothing should stick out"/"ruleset socialism". I don't think PoE gains anything from that approach. I don't play a game just to admire the justice of its rules, so someone going out of their way to ensure that I won't, heaven forbid, feel my rogue is handicapped because he can't backstab creatures that it makes no sense to be backstabbed... They've just wasted their efforts.

 

[Roguey]

It's a gamey convention for a gamey game. Making a key component of the rogue's appeal useless doesn't make the gameplay better for anyone, it already has inherent weaknesses (low deflection and endurance/health).

 

[Lhynn]

Its a narrative convention for a gamey game you mean. And it adds another layer of depth to encounters, which PoE desperately needs.

 

[Roguey]

Its a narrative convention for a gamey game you mean. And it adds another layer of depth to encounters, which PoE desperately needs.

It's not depth, it's punishment for taking a rogue that's completely negated by not taking a rogue.

 

[Lhynn]

It's not depth, it's punishment for taking a rogue that's completely negated by not taking a rogue.

I dont see the problem here. fire vulnerability is punishmen for being a vampire, that is negated by not being a vampire.

Also, rogues werent bad at all, for a noncaster.

 

[Roguey]

I dont see the problem here. fire vulnerability is punishmen for being a vampire, that is negated by not being a vampire.

Also, rogues werent bad at all, for a noncaster.

No other class gets this weird "you will be useless in this fight" punishment from game content.

 

[Lhynn]

No other class gets this weird "you will be useless in this fight" punishment from game content.

Really now? guess warriors can wreck golems or liches with their fists, or any flying shit for that matter. or what about casters in an anti magic field? mages whose spellbook got burned? What about stone golems? what about undead against a telepath or enchanters? blindsense creatures against illusionists? paladins moral code? rangers hated enemy mechanics, is it a penalty for the ranger to face shit literally his best class feature wont be of any use for? bards against creatures with no emotions?

When not every class has a way out of every situation you create two dynamics, the first one is that the class in question has to get clever to be able to face a danger they are not prepared by default to face, the second one is the fact that adventure hooks, player choices or even character development as a whole can be influenced by said challenges.

Variety is the spice of life roguey, when you kill variety you kill whatever interesting shit could have come out of it.

 

[Roguey]

guess warriors can wreck golems or liches with their fists, or any flying shit for that matter

Yes, they can.

or what about casters in an anti magic field?

Barely existent, also not a fan.

There are all kinds of ways you can overcome obstacles in P&P, but in computer role playing games you only have the RAW.