Thief fan missions and campaigns

[Icewater]

Make sure you use the flares as soon as you find them. I didn't and at this point I still haven't finished the mission because I have no clue where the hell to put them now.

 

[JarlFrank]

Yeah, I noticed that right after I found the second one and saw that they were all named.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

IIRC, you have to finish some things inside the houses before you can plant the flares, like douse the victims or somesuch.

 

[JarlFrank]

You do? I managed to drop them in front of the door right after I found them, even though the insects were still there.

 

[Dev_Anj]

So this is a concept I would like to see expanded upon in a Thief fan mission. It's from one of the side missions in Thief 4, and while it isn't used for much, I feel there is potential for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a_IjT3xxUI&list=PLuQI8b1yePWgBFKY3pIdJMr7yQOxyGtVH&index=108

Watch from 2:41.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

You're gonna have to provide more detail than that.

JarlFrank I had trouble dropping the flares until I had doused the residents, but I could have been playing an earlier version, or just some fluke. Anyway I made a note of always dropping the flare last, since it wasn't hard for me to keep track of them.

 

[Dev_Anj]

You're gonna have to provide more detail than that.

Okay, I will.

The linked Thief 4 side mission involves going into an architect's house to steal an automaton part, which looks a bit like a battery. Anyway, the premise of this level is that you enter it and at first glance, it just looks like an ordinary mansion. However, you soon find switches that slide the walls around, and doing this closes off some rooms to you while opening others. Throughout the level, you find talks about a mysterious experiment and some glyph signs on them which look like Keeper glyphs. There's a floor tile puzzle later, and the mission ends with you finding the automaton part in a chest and learning that the architect got obsessed with his experiments and travelled back in time, where he went insane and died.

The mission itself is fairly simple to be honest, but these concepts could make for an entertaining level if done right, I feel.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

True, they would. The only problem is, the Dark Engine has a very hard time dealing with sliding walls like the ones in the video. At best they'd have to put up vertically sliding walls in front of the doorways to change the layout of the level, meaning that DromED could perhaps pull this trick off with a tower-like structure along its vertical axis.

I've seen a few missions do some interesting things though. "Rose Cottage" has a door that when approached, "flees" from the player down a hallway, making the hallway suddenly look like it stretches out. While I'm not 100% certain how it's done, the basic principle is just a wall that moves.

Another approach is to have an area in the mission that you visit again and it has changed dramatically. In many cases this is accomplished by having a duplicate area serve as the new area and teleporting the player without their knowledge. "Cataclysmic Revelations" did this, the first mission actually has TWO versions of the Haunted Cathredal map chugging along, with only one way between them.

Another DromED trick I remember (though I'm not exactly certain which FM it was..."Lord Alan's Basement"?) started with a REALLY LONG drop down a sewer drain. This drop was achieved by creating many short drains adjacent to each other and then teleporting the player between each of them. Because they were all identical and the player's drop speed hid the teleporting trick, it's almost impossible to spot.

As for using glyphs to teleport around - Eskathar's "Broken Triad" is a good example to name that does exactly that. Frob a glyph, get teleported to a "hub" area where you can walk a short distance to another glyph, frob that and be returned to the main map in another (distant) location.

Some DromED'er even found a way to make Portal arrows, as in shoot an arrow there, blue marker appears, shoot an arrow there, orange marker appears. Frob one marker, get teleported to the other one. (Aperture Fletchers are not responsible for any personal injuries suffered as a result of incorrect or irresponsible usage of Portal arrows.)

 

[Melan]

The Affairs of Wizards, a Thief contest mission used this idea to turn a single mission area into three distinct environments by teleporting around various props and architectural sets. You have a basic shell (I think about 20-30 terrain brushes in total), which is then overlaid with detailed objects. It doesn't do anything crazy with it, making it more of a proof of concept than an exploration of the possibilities, but it exists. It never became a model for others because it is crazy complicated to build (with over 2500 receptrons!) and crazy resource-intensive. Along with CoSaS 2, it is one of the most technologically advanced Thief missions.

 

[JarlFrank]

Some DromED'er even found a way to make Portal arrows, as in shoot an arrow there, blue marker appears, shoot an arrow there, orange marker appears. Frob one marker, get teleported to the other one. (Aperture Fletchers are not responsible for any personal injuries suffered as a result of incorrect or irresponsible usage of Portal arrows.)

Is that implemented in a FM yet?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Not that I've heard of, it was mostly a proof of concept thing, showing that it could be done.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

"The Crazy Priest" just got released for Thief Gold. Downloaded and giving it a go.

EDIT: Well...that was short. 15 minutes later and I'm done. Garrett decided to kill several birds with one stone by killing a mad Hammerite Priest.

This FM reminds me of the time when inexperienced taffers were taffing around with DromED 15 years ago to get the hang of things. It's very simple and very short, I even managed to find all the loot. There's nothing wrong with it except it's about 15 years too late. It uses the Thief 1/G "dark as crap" darkness to good effect, and catches well the T1 ambience, and the small church is kinda nice. But beyond that, nothing new to see here.

 

[Dev_Anj]

Yup, I played it, and honestly, it's too simple. Basically it's just a mission where you break into a church, use it to go to a small ruined area, and then kill someone closed in a small room. All of that, with blocky architecture and sparse guard density.

I'm almost done with the mission, but can't seem to find all the loot. Could you tell me where they are?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

# Rope up to the other identical window where you found the key.
# The ruins have small gems everywhere, they're easy to spot, even from far away. There's even one on the mantlepiece where the zombie is.
# One priest lost a ring, look for it under one of the bells.
# There's a crown on a statue in the entrance hall of the church.

 

[Dev_Anj]

# One priest lost a ring, look for it under one of the bells.

Huh, I found everything except the ring. I checked under both bells, and there's no ring. Screenshot please? I have 625 gold right now by the way.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

It's a Thief 1 mission, if I posted a screenshot you'd be staring at a whole lotta dark for no reason.

It's under the bell that's on the same side as the passage to the ruins. There should be three crates, I had to lift the one on the right to find it on the ground. Stand under the middle of the bell and face the same way as the two guards outside the church are, then it should be a little bit on the right.

 

[Dev_Anj]

Got it! Ah, that was one stupidly small ring.

Oh well, now to wait for a good mission to be made for Thief: Gold.

 

[Dev_Anj]

Looks like the author of that mission found our little thread. He/she also has a really strange opinion about us.

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144955&p=2276825&viewfull=1#post2276825

I hope you'll enjoy it

Btw I came across a hater's forum for Thief (wave: I see you

).

And my mission got criticized in a very strange way. A guy said that it's visually stunning, I have skillfully used ambients and lightning... But it's too old-fashioned, huh

Well, this is what Thief is about, guys... I love old-School taffing. I also love new-School taffing and I enjoy Thief 4, but hm... Thief 1 is good because it's what it is...

By the way, I'm thinking about creating an old-school prison mission. Like Cragscleft. Oh, I bloody love it. It's just DromEd brushes. Simple dromed brushes. And they don't even use electric bulbs there! Just omni light points around. So cool... I think I can reimagine something like that.

 

[SAlexandrov]

Yes, I do read what you write here.

First, I want to point out that my opinion is not biased, nor I feel offended by what you write here. In fact, I prefer to be discussed and hated, rather than not be discussed at all. And I think it's the preference of every person who's involved in creating art - the worst thing is to be ignored. But yesterday I wasted a hour or two to read all opinions here, and I'll never get those hours back, I know.

First, I read that the community on TTLG is a circle-jerking hugbox. I don't see what's wrong with this. This makes it the best gaming community I've ever encountered, and for a reason. And guess what, most of the gaming communities are damn rotten and toxic. I don't need to bring out how to World of Warcraft community is so toxic, and the Blizzard forums are full of jerks. In fact, I stopped playing the game even if my subs has not expired yet, because of the community.

And just having a fan community where bad opinions are not expressed is actually good. TTLG deserves its own place on the internet, because it's a good place to feel comfortable.

Then, what I see here is far from the constructive criticism an author would expect. What I saw here was: Sensut was a retard, because of the unique challenges in his missions, Cardia1 doesn't have a good FM at all. I even encountered a guy here who says that there are no good FMs at all, because they do not have the good old Looking Glass feeling...

Really?

Really?

I admit, there are certain patterns I hate in FMs. I hate when there's clueless keyhunt or loothunt, and not even a readable what you should do. Or when there's a tiny secret switch inside a bush. This hasn't stopped me from liking Christine's FM's. And even if I fail to finish a FM, I just go ahead.

I've reacted harshly only two times. About two project - The Dark Mod, and The Hammerite Imperium. For the Dark Mod, it was the old founder's attitude towards me, he offended me and I reacted back (which shows exactly why unconstructive criticism is NOT welcome at all on TTLG - because it spoils the good atmosphere). Projects like the Hammerite Imperium, however, carry a certain burden and certain expectations, and they failed to meet my expectations. Big projects got criticised more... But since I know people involved in the project, they accepted my criticism, and ... that was all.

However, I fail to find the purpose of this thread, except than to bash every, every single FM that gets released.

I see no value... I see nothing constructive. And certainly, nothing to learn from...

I see that many people here don't accept the argument that because something is free, it doesn't render it immune from criticism. Yes, I agree, but there is certain criticism that is useful, and criticism that's not. Even big companies beg people on forums to offer criticism in a constructive way - and it's towards customers that pay for...

 

[Infinitron]

 

[skacky]

I'm not even going to bother repyling to that except this particular bit:

However, I fail to find the purpose of this thread, except than to bash every, every single FM that gets released.

That is absolutely false and proves you haven't read this thread.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Yes, I do read what you write here.

First, I want to point out that my opinion is not biased, nor I feel offended by what you write here. In fact, I prefer to be discussed and hated, rather than not be discussed at all. And I think it's the preference of every person who's involved in creating art - the worst thing is to be ignored. But yesterday I wasted a hour or two to read all opinions here, and I'll never get those hours back, I know.

First, I read that the community on TTLG is a circle-jerking hugbox. I don't see what's wrong with this. This makes it the best gaming community I've ever encountered, and for a reason. And guess what, most of the gaming communities are damn rotten and toxic. I don't need to bring out how to World of Warcraft community is so toxic, and the Blizzard forums are full of jerks. In fact, I stopped playing the game even if my subs has not expired yet, because of the community.

And just having a fan community where bad opinions are not expressed is actually good. TTLG deserves its own place on the internet, because it's a good place to feel comfortable.

I'll begin by being the first one to introduce you to "outside of the (hug)box". It's not nice out here, but you'll learn things really fast.

The underlined part is the key to understanding where you're coming from. I'm going to guess that you're young (under 20 years old) and/or have lived a sheltered life, because that is the only way I can see anyone making that kind of statement with a straight face.

Let me tell you where I come from: I come from a country where nepotism (and the ensuing corruption) runs rampant, where the local population has created a society that is one gigantic circle-jerking hugbox, and mostly to hide away the fact that we're pathetic scum of the earth that has had to endure and survive in one of the most inhospitable parts of the world. I am part of the minority that sees through this and am trying to push for change and progress in my home country, but to no avail. Denial is not just a river in Egypt, as the saying goes. Nothing changes there, it's the same crap over and over again.

So you can guess that I'm not very fond of finding miniature versions of my homeland in online communities. Don't get me wrong, the Codex is not the best place to be, there are circlejerkers here, but at least it's not a hugbox. You ARE allowed to have a different opinion here - but you're also required to defend it if you have to. Which is exactly what I'm doing here. I could do as so many Codexers do, just reply with a silly smiley and move on. Their "online community" backgrounds are probably from those same toxic and immature communities as you mentioned, WoW, Blizzard and more. (I'm surprised there aren't more EVE Online forum critters here, you want to see a toxic online community? I give you EVE Online. Seriously, don't go there.)

What I'm about to say now may sound condescending, but I think it's vital to make this clear: When you're creating something (it doesn't matter what that is) it's great to have supporters and friendly people that'll help you, but once you finish your creation and release it, you are submitting your work to THE WORLD - which is a big scary place. You will find people that praise you, cheer you on and applaud you for your creation. You will also find people that loathe you, condemn you, demonize you and even outright hate you for your creation. This is something that's beyond your control, and whining about it isn't gonna get much done, I'm afraid. This applies to EVERYONE that ever created anything.

So harden up.

When I review things, I try to be in the middle. It's not easy, and I don't always succeed. I also try not to review things I don't have a damn clue about. But I know my games, I know what works in them. I know Thief (1 & 2) and I know what works there. But at the end of the day I'm just one guy, one voice, one opinion among billions. I actually find it kinda strange that people come after me when I'm just stating my opinion and trying not to be a total bastard at the same time. The only people that do that are - you guessed it - people whom are 'raised' in circle-jerking hugbox communities and feel threatened.

Which is good.

Now to answer some specific points of yours...

Then, what I see here is far from the constructive criticism an author would expect. What I saw here was: Sensut was a retard, because of the unique challenges in his missions, Cardia1 doesn't have a good FM at all. I even encountered a guy here who says that there are no good FMs at all, because they do not have the good old Looking Glass feeling...

The two underlined ones are mine, so I'll answer for them.

I'll admit that the comment regarding Sensut's missions that I wrote 4 years ago isn't properly worded. If you'll allow me to rephrase it to be more appropiate: "I find it retarded that Sensut delibaretely made the Dracula missions extra difficult because he and his friends wanted a new challenge from the game." I wish I could say that this was the end of Sensut and retarded decisions, but then I recall the second mission from Being Thief 2 (which was released last year) and just sigh...Sensut can make really good FMs, but he tends to go *Derp* sometimes and do something totally nonsensical. Nobody's perfect.

As for cardia1 not having any good FMs, you are reading my words wrong...and it turns out I was wrong. I said that I didn't know of any FMs he'd made that were good, but then later I found a list of all FMs that cardia1 has made, and there is one I recommend people to play: "Anna to the Rescue". So there's that.

I've also mentioned that some texture enhancement packs take Thief FMs in a direction away from its roots, at least from an atmospheric point of view. It's a minor thing to squabble about, but it fits under the last part of your quote. Personally I'm more concerned about the authors who make Thief FMs that don't follow the spirit of Thief, but they're few and far between.

However, I fail to find the purpose of this thread, except than to bash every, every single FM that gets released.

I see no value... I see nothing constructive. And certainly, nothing to learn from...

I did not start this thread, but it turns out that my contributions to it were positively acknowledged by other Codexers, many of which wanted to know which FMs were worth playing and which ones to avoid. Because if there are many places that still review Thief FMs, they're not easy to find. Everyone knows of TTLG, but many also see the problems with that community. And Codexers (at least) know better than to post on the heavily moderated Eidos forums, which doesn't seem to leave a lot of options for serious FM talk.

I see that many people here don't accept the argument that because something is free, it doesn't render it immune from criticism. Yes, I agree, but there is certain criticism that is useful, and criticism that's not. Even big companies beg people on forums to offer criticism in a constructive way - and it's towards customers that pay for...

And this is what I'm trying, at least; to criticize for the good of everyone. Yes, there may come times when I'm tired or annoyed and post something that could be phrased better, but at least I'm trying. If I was successful/good at this, I'd make a paying gig out of this and be a "online celebrity" of some renown. But as is, I'm doing this because I care.

 

[JarlFrank]

However, I fail to find the purpose of this thread, except than to bash every, every single FM that gets released.

I see no value... I see nothing constructive. And certainly, nothing to learn from...

I see that many people here don't accept the argument that because something is free, it doesn't render it immune from criticism. Yes, I agree, but there is certain criticism that is useful, and criticism that's not. Even big companies beg people on forums to offer criticism in a constructive way - and it's towards customers that pay for...

Quite the contrary, I found this thread to be one of the best things to guide me when I was new to FMs because most posters here have good recommendations and can describe well why a mission would or would not suit one's taste.
Yeah, we might be overly critical, but that's the Codex for you. We criticize everything that can be criticized. That doesn't mean we "bash" it. I am quite curious how you got that impression, as there are many posts in this thread where people praise a mission's strength, or call a mission good but flawed while describing the flaws quite well.

Yeah, some people here hate things just because they want to hate things. You gotta live with these opinions. As an artist, you should realize that you will never be able to please everyone. Some people will love your shit. Some people will hate your shit and call it horrible. Suck it down. Learn to live with it. That's what happens to people who are professional artists, too. They get even more shit flung at them on a daily basis.

What I find here in this thread is that most of the people posting about FMs know what they're talking about, and they can often be critical, but for good reasons. Nevetheless, overall most impressions here are positive. Not "I love it" positive but "it's worth playing despite flaws XYZ" positive.

When Unkillable Cat called you mission "too oldschool", he probably meant that it feels a bit basic, like the early 1999 to 2001 FMs from the era when dromeders still learned how to use their level editing tool. And that's fine. It doesn't mean your mission is bad, it means it's a solid beginner's mission. But that's it: solid. It's enjoyable, but you can still improve yourself and make something better.

The really negative feedback here is only levelled against idiotic design decisions like hidden switches with no hints to their whereabouts being necessary for the mission's completion. Because that sucks and is not fun. We tolerate it if it's used sparingly, but if the entire mission is designed like that (like King's Story), it gets a lot of flak here.

 

[Dev_Anj]

Also you need to realize that criticism is vital for most artists to learn their mistakes. Yes, almost every artist who is serious, and there are many in today's marketplace, will give a lot of effort and hard work into his/her creation. But this does not mean that people are obliged to like it. People have different tastes from different experiences, and they can find a creation underwhelming or poorly done. Now of course there should be a healthy relationship between the artists and the consumers, and the consumers should try and give understandable but honest criticism and feedback while the artists should be more than willing to accept that some people don't like their work, or some aspects of it.

Now I don't want to speak in favour of everyone in this thread, but I can definitely say that me, Unkillable Cat and skacky have no intention of just defaming others' fan missions. We just try to talk about them here and explore what worked in them, what didn't and whether it's worth downloading and trying. Besides, the whole idea that people would simply defame the works of others is just absurd. Sure, there are racists and the like who won't give the works proper chances and will just pile hatred on it, but most people try to enjoy works at first. Some works become popular, some don't and find a niche, and some are simply forgotten. When people watch a film, read a book, or play a game, they often do it in the hopes that they get some enjoyment out of it. Hating works simply for the sake of hating them is a ridiculous idea that is ultimately self defeating.

Now you're the one who wanted to make a Craigscleft style mission, weren't you? I'm very much interested in that, and I can see that you do know how to capture the ambience of Thief: Gold. Honestly, The Crazy Priest wasn't bad, it was just unfulfilling. It felt like the bare shell of an idea that could be expanded upon, and had potential.

Anyway, welcome to the forums, and best of luck in your future missions!

 

[Riskbreaker]

If it means anything, this here thread has been my favorite place for FM recommendations on teh net. There is many a mission that I immensely enjoy'd, that would still be unplayed by me if there wasn't for this thread and fine gentlemen that frequent it.

You're doing a fine service to Builder here guys. Keep it up!