This is just...so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I don't think anyone here has ever tried to argue this one before. I haven't even seen the most overzealous of KKKodex members try to argue something like Morrowind can hold a candle to the likes of Grandia, Resonance of Fate, or even Nioh. Western RPG's get away with zero personality and dull presentation because of "muh moral ambiguity" that hipsters latched onto for no reason other than they think they're somehow above a generic good vs. evil high fantasy story that presents itself well (See: Dragon's Dogma*). And don't even get started on full action games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, and Bayonetta. The West is so far behind in terms of systems all it can do is copy and hope it pans out.Some WRPGs can get away with having zero personality and dull presentation because they have more complex systems
Amusing trick here. Make a thread in the jrpg forum and cut my parrots from another thread,and watch the retard rating rain. I can even feel the here.
This is just...so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I don't think anyone here has ever tried to argue this one before. I haven't even seen the most overzealous of KKKodex members try to argue something like Morrowind can hold a candle to the likes of Grandia, Resonance of Fate, or even Nioh.
What? I thought most JRPG fans here agree that JRPG are simplified cRPG at its core. And why are you talking about 3D beat em ups?This is just...so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I don't think anyone here has ever tried to argue this one before. I haven't even seen the most overzealous of KKKodex members try to argue something like Morrowind can hold a candle to the likes of Grandia, Resonance of Fate, or even Nioh. Western RPG's get away with zero personality and dull presentation because of "muh moral ambiguity" that hipsters latched onto for no reason other than they think they're somehow above a generic good vs. evil high fantasy story that presents itself well (See: Dragon's Dogma*). And don't even get started on full action games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, and Bayonetta. The West is so far behind in terms of systems all it can do is copy and hope it pans out.Some WRPGs can get away with having zero personality and dull presentation because they have more complex systemsIt hasn't
* - Ending was a complete curveball and turned the generic high fantasy tropes on its head, and was extremely refreshing.
Their weapon and upgrade systems are somehow better than some CRPGs. Looking at you, Divinity: Original Sin.And why are you talking about 3D beat em ups?
What? I thought most JRPG fans here agree that JRPG are simplified cRPG at its core. And why are you talking about 3D beat em ups?This is just...so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I don't think anyone here has ever tried to argue this one before. I haven't even seen the most overzealous of KKKodex members try to argue something like Morrowind can hold a candle to the likes of Grandia, Resonance of Fate, or even Nioh. Western RPG's get away with zero personality and dull presentation because of "muh moral ambiguity" that hipsters latched onto for no reason other than they think they're somehow above a generic good vs. evil high fantasy story that presents itself well (See: Dragon's Dogma*). And don't even get started on full action games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, and Bayonetta. The West is so far behind in terms of systems all it can do is copy and hope it pans out.Some WRPGs can get away with having zero personality and dull presentation because they have more complex systemsIt hasn't
* - Ending was a complete curveball and turned the generic high fantasy tropes on its head, and was extremely refreshing.
EO or SMT aren't even close to W6-8, no comparison
Etrian Odyssey and Shin Megami Tensei are Wizardry clones for console, what is this with "don't come close."What? I thought most JRPG fans here agree that JRPG are simplified cRPG at its core. And why are you talking about 3D beat em ups?This is just...so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I don't think anyone here has ever tried to argue this one before. I haven't even seen the most overzealous of KKKodex members try to argue something like Morrowind can hold a candle to the likes of Grandia, Resonance of Fate, or even Nioh. Western RPG's get away with zero personality and dull presentation because of "muh moral ambiguity" that hipsters latched onto for no reason other than they think they're somehow above a generic good vs. evil high fantasy story that presents itself well (See: Dragon's Dogma*). And don't even get started on full action games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, and Bayonetta. The West is so far behind in terms of systems all it can do is copy and hope it pans out.Some WRPGs can get away with having zero personality and dull presentation because they have more complex systemsIt hasn't
* - Ending was a complete curveball and turned the generic high fantasy tropes on its head, and was extremely refreshing.
What do you mean by simplified? Even the best western dungeon crawlers don't come close to having as complex and deep combat systems and character + party building as Etrian Odyssey or Shin Megami Tensei. jRPGs are notorious for having insanely detailed and gamey mechanics.
It's a strange comparison but I actually agree with this... It would be good if new weapons and upgrades are more than just increased number but different usage.Their weapon and upgrade systems are somehow better than some CRPGs. Looking at you, Divinity: Original Sin.
Etrian Odyssey and Shin Megami Tensei are Wizardry clones for console, what is this with "don't come close."
I do know that SMT has lots of demon to catch/fuse, but the early game demons are quickly obsolete in combat (Except for some spell you don't have yet in higher level monster, I think).
What I mean simplified is that it cuts down many of the non-combat elements, which SMT game is, compared to most cRPGs out there. And to be honest SMT is a bad example of an average JRPG, just as Fallout is a bad example of a average cRPG. Calling it "simplified" was never meant to be a "hand waving" (tbh I had to google that, it seems to have a pejorative meaning), it really means that JRPG has a more focused gameplay elements. And when that aspect fails, they have nothing to save themselves, at least in my judgement. I think this focus is also why they have limited appeal to cRPG fans. (Beside anime of course)Etrian Odyssey and Shin Megami Tensei are Wizardry clones for console, what is this with "don't come close."
I do know that SMT has lots of demon to catch/fuse, but the early game demons are quickly obsolete in combat (Except for some spell you don't have yet in higher level monster, I think).
Calling SMT and EO Wizardry clones doesn't do them or Wizardry justice. Besides, apart from being FPP dungeon crawlers, the gameplay focus of these titles are on different things and play they very differently. EO is purely combat, SMT is almost purely combat with some focus on the dungeons and Wizardry is the most balanced of them all where the dungeon crawling itself is just as important as the combat. EO has pretty poor dungeon crawling because the dungeons are simple and lack real puzzles, but the combat is a lot deeper than in Wiz, for example. It doesn't make much sense to try and hand wave jRPGs as simplified cRPGs when they have done many things better and/or with more depth and complexity.
You don't know where to begin because your mind is stuck on systems = combat. I wasn't even referring to combat, although ToEE pastes the vast majority of turn-based JRPGs, but that's an outlier. There are other systems at play in RPGs. FFS 99% of JRPGs haven't evolved in party mechanics, you can't even break off with your thief to go scout ahead, disarm traps, and unlock chests. I've seen no character creation as complex as Daggerfall or any of the good DnD adaptations, when JRPGs have any at all. Quest design not as intricate as Fallouts or Arcanum (Yes I know about Way of the Samurai. What else). World simulation not on par with some of the Ultima games, Gothics.This is just...so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I don't think anyone here has ever tried to argue this one before. I haven't even seen the most overzealous of KKKodex members try to argue something like Morrowind can hold a candle to the likes of Grandia, Resonance of Fate, or even Nioh. Western RPG's get away with zero personality and dull presentation because of "muh moral ambiguity" that hipsters latched onto for no reason other than they think they're somehow above a generic good vs. evil high fantasy story that presents itself well (See: Dragon's Dogma*). And don't even get started on full action games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, and Bayonetta. The West is so far behind in terms of systems all it can do is copy and hope it pans out.Some WRPGs can get away with having zero personality and dull presentation because they have more complex systemsIt hasn't
* - Ending was a complete curveball and turned the generic high fantasy tropes on its head, and was extremely refreshing.
What I mean simplified is that it cuts down many of the non-combat elements, which SMT game is, compared to most cRPGs out there. And to be honest SMT is a bad example of an average JRPG, just as Fallout is a bad example of a average cRPG. Calling it "simplified" was never meant to be a "hand waving" (tbh I had to google that, it seems to have a pejorative meaning), it really means that JRPG has a more focused gameplay elements. And when that aspect fails, they have nothing to save themselves, at least in my judgement. I think this focus is also why they have limited appeal to cRPG fans. (Beside anime of course)Etrian Odyssey and Shin Megami Tensei are Wizardry clones for console, what is this with "don't come close."
I do know that SMT has lots of demon to catch/fuse, but the early game demons are quickly obsolete in combat (Except for some spell you don't have yet in higher level monster, I think).
Calling SMT and EO Wizardry clones doesn't do them or Wizardry justice. Besides, apart from being FPP dungeon crawlers, the gameplay focus of these titles are on different things and play they very differently. EO is purely combat, SMT is almost purely combat with some focus on the dungeons and Wizardry is the most balanced of them all where the dungeon crawling itself is just as important as the combat. EO has pretty poor dungeon crawling because the dungeons are simple and lack real puzzles, but the combat is a lot deeper than in Wiz, for example. It doesn't make much sense to try and hand wave jRPGs as simplified cRPGs when they have done many things better and/or with more depth and complexity.
I'm pretty sure they can if they had any.And if the high point of Morrowind combat is that the enemies are too retarded to fight someone with levitation by grabbing a ranged weapon or taking cover, I think that kind of speaks for itself.
These shitty, ill-conceived gimmicks are not worthy of praise. They're fucking bullet points for shysters. Jrpgs don't need to let you levitate to bug out the enemy AI because they give you a fucking airship, spells and items to avoid combat entirely, and their combat is entertaining and rewarding, instead of being a pointless slog.
Because combat is the bread and butter of most RPG's. Very few of those systems complement the actual combat. As an FYI, Grandia Xtreme had a magic crafting system with the Mana Egg creation. Sure, it wasn't personalized like Morrowind...but it was there, with lots of variety for magic. ToEE isn't exactly a good comparison to JRPG's because it wipes the floor with both JRPG and WRPG alike. Great combat, and all of the positives of a D&D game to boot. Shame it was a buggy piece of shit on release. Even on Temple+ I've had countless gamebreaking bugs and corrupt save files. I'm tired of doing the 3rd floor of the Temple for the 5th time tbh.You don't know where to begin because your mind is stuck on systems = combat. I wasn't even referring to combat, although ToEE pastes the vast majority of turn-based JRPGs, but that's an outlier
Most blobbers are Japanese-made at this point. Or at least the ones worth playing. Yeah the former isn't possible because of mostly static party play (that new feudal Japan centered, real time one might change that though), but the latter are a staple. It's only missing from EO games, which opted for body part farming, as a sort of deterministic farming method instead of pure RNG.FFS 99% of JRPGs haven't evolved in party mechanics, you can't even break off with your thief to go scout ahead, disarm traps, and unlock chests.
No, but that's something that doesn't make up for the fact real-time, first person combat is just a bad choice all around for RPG's. And then bethesda went and gave the option for a third-person view in Oblivion and...woof, suddenly first person wasn't so bad.Can you use a levitate spell to go to any higher ground you want, where your enemies can't reach you and shoot arrows or spells down on them in Grandia?
It was more just a set up to make a joke at the expense of Divinity since I knew people would latch onto it. DOS is a decent game with fun combat that marked a bit of a return for the CRPG (I guess), but I don't think it deserves nearly as much praise as it gets. I've played it 4 times (original x2, EE x2) and every single damn time it comes to a slogging halt at Hiberheim. While the combat was enjoyable, all of the things that should complement its combat from character building to itemization were sorely lacking. Its dialogue system also made Dragon Age 2's look good. Whoever thought a rigged form of RPS was a good idea should have been fired on the spot. Not sure I could see myself giving it more than a 6.5 or 7 / 10, which I know is considered heresy.You don't even have to cheat and bring in pure action games, which aren't even relevant to the topic
I can't imagine how massive a weaboo you have to be to display this level of delusion. Every single thing mentioned in your post is a deliberate misrepresentation of facts to make your arguments appear as if they're valid.Why is Grandia the poster child here? It's a shit series with shallow mechanics. And if the high point of Morrowind combat is that the enemies are too retarded to fight someone with levitation by grabbing a ranged weapon or taking cover, I think that kind of speaks for itself. The spellmaking and enchanting are also basically complete garbage unless you break the game entirely with them. Like 95% of the effects and skills are so overpriced they're entirely useless. Like pickpocketing. At least in jrpg's pickpocketing gives you worthwhile items without losing you the entire fucking game if you whiff a single roll. What does it do for you in an elder scrolls game? Savescum to avoid killing someone for whom there are zero consequences for killing? Get an infinitesimal amount of loot in a game with infinite lootable enemies and merchants willing to give away all their money by buy and selling the same item over and over?
These shitty, ill-conceived gimmicks are not worthy of praise. They're fucking bullet points for shysters. Jrpgs don't need to let you levitate to bug out the enemy AI because they give you a fucking airship, spells and items to avoid combat entirely, and their combat is entertaining and rewarding, instead of being a pointless slog.
Spells that alter the battlefield like Grease and Web? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.
Spells that summon creatures and temporary equipment? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.
Illusion spells such as Mirror Image, Invisibility and Simulacrum? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.
Long-term status effects like level draining and petrification? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.
Status-inflicting abilities that are actually reliable and a viable alternative to dealing damage? Not entirely non-existent, but very rare in JRPG's.