The XP for Combat Megathread! DISCUSS!

[Zombra]

Player who backtracks will be overleveled and rewarded for failing to manage resources.
Assume player will backtrack? Player who goes right through will be underleveled, also, why make alternative routes then? - just make a corridor.

So make routes mutually exclusive and lock them after one has been chosen.

Like, have a big portcullis slam down behind them every time they make a decision? Why be that artificial? Better to just not give them a reason to backtrack. I hate games that physically prohibit me from turning around.

 

[AN4RCHID]

I was thinking more of branching dialogue choices, but that could work too. I also don't really see a problem with letting the more autistic players game a little extra XP by backtracking. It's fun to be able to get overlevelled occasionally, and it's fun to take on fights for which you're underlevelled.

 

[Zombra]

Dialogue blocks are cool. I hate being prohibited from physically turning around, but I prefer being prohibited from social backtracking. Seriously, I love it when dialogue options disappear because that conversation wouldn't make sense any more.

 

[DraQ]

Assuming player will sensibly only choose one of the routes (let's say player has every reason to believe there will be no loot, only resource attrition)?

I was thinking more of branching dialogue choices, but that could work too. I also don't really see a problem with letting the more autistic players game a little extra XP by backtracking. It's fun to be able to get overlevelled occasionally, and it's fun to take on fights for which you're underlevelled.

The thing is we're discussing physical alternatives here.

For example, you're in a cave, the left branch goes by a lair of some giant rats, the right branch through a lair of actually giant spider. Depending on your build, you may want to go through spider's lair (if you're resistant to poison or are good at dodging), or through the rats (if you have some armor that will let you just shrug their bites off when they swarm you or good AoE spells to deal with all of them at once), then the paths rejoin. Physical blockage will require extra assets and scripting each time you have alternative paths and it will get retardedly contrived. Meanwhile XP triggers are reusable and very simple - you set up what amounts to a "xp landmine" that reacts to any party members getting within activation radius, gives party set amount of XP to share amongst themselves and is destroyed.
They also don't need further modifications should you change stuff, don't need to check for party members in the portculis slam area and account for creative solutions or simply casting sleep or horror on your rats and moving on - does it really matter whether the PC wasted time personally seeking out and stabbing each of the rats dead?

As for "little extra XP" - if on average you have 2 paths for moving forward, "autistic" players will get twice as much XP. The more interesting and complex your level design gets, the worse the problem becomes - that's a tell tale sign that something is seriously fucked up in your system.

Dialogue blocks are cool. I hate being prohibited from physically turning around, but I prefer being prohibited from social backtracking. Seriously, I love it when dialogue options disappear because that conversation wouldn't make sense any more.

Agreed. Backtracking through dialogue trees is just awful. Any repeatable dialogue options should be topics independent of any dialogue tree (but possibly added while inside dialogue tree).

if you won't give me XP for killing monsters, but are going to fill the game with trash combat, then do this: instead of xp until i'm 100% in the bestiary, make it so every time i kill a certain amount of monster X, i get a bonus damage against them, because i "know" them better and i know their weaknesses and tactics and weak points etc. So by the time i have to kill the millionth xaurip, at least they'll go down with two hits and i can move on.

Why not?
It makes sense and would only be a boon to the kind of character that tends to kill given creature type.

It doesn't even make sense to do it incrementally, just use a formula that uses kill count for given creature type with multiplier and ceiling defined for each creature type.
Although I would go for something subtler and less likely to cause any breakage than damage bonus. Probably something like critical chance bonus.

 

[Zombra]

if you won't give me XP for killing monsters, but are going to fill the game with trash combat, then do this: instead of xp until i'm 100% in the bestiary, make it so every time i kill a certain amount of monster X, i get a bonus damage against them, because i "know" them better and i know their weaknesses and tactics and weak points etc. So by the time i have to kill the millionth xaurip, at least they'll go down with two hits and i can move on.

Why not?
It makes sense and would only be a boon to the kind of character that tends to kill given creature type.

It doesn't even make sense to do it incrementally, just use a formula that uses kill count for given creature type with multiplier and ceiling defined for each creature type.
Although I would go for something subtler and less likely to cause any breakage than damage bonus. Probably something like critical chance bonus.

Doesn't even need a ceiling in my opinion. Fine with me if it gets to the point you can kill a bear in one shot every time, who cares? if you're not getting anything for it.

 

[Scruffy]

or, alternatively, make the fight its own reward. make it interesting, dangerous even at high levels, a bear could kill you with one hit, use that, or goblins are always at least 10 and could overwhelm you, i don't know, i'm just so tired of still having uninteresting trash fights after 20 years of playing games...

 

[AN4RCHID]

For example, you're in a cave, the left branch goes by a lair of some giant rats, the right branch through a lair of actually giant spider. Depending on your build, you may want to go through spider's lair (if you're resistant to poison or are good at dodging), or through the rats (if you have some armor that will let you just shrug their bites off when they swarm you or good AoE spells to deal with all of them at once), then the paths rejoin. Physical blockage will require extra assets and scripting each time you have alternative paths and it will get retardedly contrived. Meanwhile XP triggers are reusable and very simple - you set up what amounts to a "xp landmine" that reacts to any party members getting within activation radius, gives party set amount of XP to share amongst themselves and is destroyed.
They also don't need further modifications should you change stuff, don't need to check for party members in the portculis slam area and account for creative solutions or simply casting sleep or horror on your rats and moving on - does it really matter whether the PC wasted time personally seeking out and stabbing each of the rats dead?

In your example, why on earth would you not expect players to explore both paths? Hell, I do this in PoE just for the loot and sense of completion. If players choose to skip content, then they miss out on the rewards, tough shit. C&C, bitch.

 

[DraQ]

Doesn't even need a ceiling in my opinion. Fine with me if it gets to the point you can kill a bear in one shot every time, who cares? if you're not getting anything for it.

Ceiling is for rare and powerful creatures, so that player isn't tempted to seek out and kill as many as possible out of their limited number before some special encounter.
For top tier stuff you might even disable this mechanics altogether.

 

[Lhynn]

For starters, kill XP based system is a massive disincentive for not just quest but also area design that goes beyond a corridor or a tree.

This here is the biggest lie DraQ ever told.

Want alternative routes with alternative challenges? Bam, problem.

Oh wait, now this is a p. good contender to the biggest lie DraQ ever told.

Assuming player will sensibly only choose one of the routes (let's say player has every reason to believe there will be no loot, only resource attrition)? Player who backtracks will be overleveled and rewarded for failing to manage resources.

WIll they be? will it even matter?
(maybe and no, it doesnt)

Assume player will backtrack? Player who goes right through will be underleveled, also, why make alternative routes then? - just make a corridor.

Just an excuse for lazy design

Meanwhile with XP triggers you just slap XP reward where the paths reconverge and move to the next thing.

You are just making up a problem that can be easily solved by adding a bit of reactivity. Lets say you clear the dungeon by killing its master, but you stealthed it tru all the way to the end, reward? you get to the end of the dungeon and the master has no traps in place, some of his valuables are not secured under lock, you find some evidence that he otherwise would have gotten rid of, etc. You kill him and without a leader most/all of his minions go away, never to be seen again by the player. You later find out that those same monsters descended upon a village on the valley and raided it and murdered everyone.

You got less exp, got an easier time dealing with the problem, found a few valuables you wouldnt have been able to find otherwise, perhaps those valuables are more important to your character than some measly experience (good itemization). Perhaps you didnt care about the town that suffered because the heroes decided that leaving evil creatures live but be safe was the best way to deal with the situation. Maybe the party is later hired to deal with some of those monsters, etc, etc.

You make it impossible to measure the value of your choices in terms of exp and suddenly you will find that players go with whatever they think they should be doing.

But no, your solution is to put an arbitrary XP reward behind a door and call it a day, 10/10, genius design. You are as boring as sawyer some days. My solution is not only more organic, it has an superior amount of replayability and all it takes is for a dude to write for an entire afternoon some dialogues into the game. Give me 10 hours of this game im proposing and ill give you my money over the 60 hours of boring shit that PoE is turning out to be.

 

[Immortal]

INB4 Draq posts a wall of bullshit nobody reads then when he loses the argument posts my joined date instead.

Please show on this inflatable doll where the dragon has butthurt you.

I mean.. This just proved my point.. But..

> Show how you defend most of your opinions with *~*~Feels~*~* and Ad Hominem Arguments
> I am Clearly Butthurt

There is no way you could hurt my butt after the pounding Sawyer gave me with PoE

 

[Old Hans]

just go back to the old days and give experience points for gold pieces

 

[Zombra]

Doesn't even need a ceiling in my opinion. Fine with me if it gets to the point you can kill a bear in one shot every time, who cares? if you're not getting anything for it.

Ceiling is for rare and powerful creatures, so that player isn't tempted to seek out and kill as many as possible out of their limited number before some special encounter.
For top tier stuff you might even disable this mechanics altogether.

Yeah, I assumed that this wouldn't apply to "named" encounters, just generic filler enemies.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

if you won't give me XP for killing monsters, but are going to fill the game with trash combat, then do this: instead of xp until i'm 100% in the bestiary, make it so every time i kill a certain amount of monster X, i get a bonus damage against them, because i "know" them better and i know their weaknesses and tactics and weak points etc. So by the time i have to kill the millionth xaurip, at least they'll go down with two hits and i can move on.

Yeah, that sounds perilously close to something that makes sense actually, which means Sawyer would never implement it. Valuable crafting ingredients and the sheer joy of trash mob combat will have to do.

 

[AN4RCHID]

if you won't give me XP for killing monsters, but are going to fill the game with trash combat, then do this: instead of xp until i'm 100% in the bestiary, make it so every time i kill a certain amount of monster X, i get a bonus damage against them, because i "know" them better and i know their weaknesses and tactics and weak points etc. So by the time i have to kill the millionth xaurip, at least they'll go down with two hits and i can move on.

Yeah, that sounds perilously close to something that makes sense actually, which means Sawyer would never implement it. Valuable crafting ingredients and the sheer joy of trash mob combat will have to do.

Sawyer did implement it. In Fallout: New Vegas.

 

[Lhynn]

if you won't give me XP for killing monsters, but are going to fill the game with trash combat, then do this: instead of xp until i'm 100% in the bestiary, make it so every time i kill a certain amount of monster X, i get a bonus damage against them, because i "know" them better and i know their weaknesses and tactics and weak points etc. So by the time i have to kill the millionth xaurip, at least they'll go down with two hits and i can move on.

Yeah, that sounds perilously close to something that makes sense actually, which means Sawyer would never implement it. Valuable crafting ingredients and the sheer joy of trash mob combat will have to do.

Been done before by knights of xentar. It worked well.

 

[Bubbles]

if you won't give me XP for killing monsters, but are going to fill the game with trash combat, then do this: instead of xp until i'm 100% in the bestiary, make it so every time i kill a certain amount of monster X, i get a bonus damage against them, because i "know" them better and i know their weaknesses and tactics and weak points etc. So by the time i have to kill the millionth xaurip, at least they'll go down with two hits and i can move on.

That would give a valuable and unique incentive to seek violent solutions in quests. PoE's design philosophy is based around combat being an optional solution to a problem, not a no-brainer.

 

[Scruffy]

if you won't give me XP for killing monsters, but are going to fill the game with trash combat, then do this: instead of xp until i'm 100% in the bestiary, make it so every time i kill a certain amount of monster X, i get a bonus damage against them, because i "know" them better and i know their weaknesses and tactics and weak points etc. So by the time i have to kill the millionth xaurip, at least they'll go down with two hits and i can move on.

That would give a valuable and unique incentive to seek violent solutions in quests. PoE's design philosophy is based around combat being an optional solution to a problem, not a no-brainer.

why?
if i know that killing those 50 goblins will net me nothing in terms of XPs, i'll sneak in, steal their urn or whatever it is that i need for the quest, and sneak out, saving me the hassle of hammering goblins for 10 minutes.

however, if i do want to one shot them for 10 minutes, i should get some kind of consequence.
like, a goblin raid on the village to avenge them, killing locals (and precious merchants), or having goblins go after me in droves, etc

the problem is that pc actions should also cause a reaction, and not always a foreseeable one.

 

[Zombra]

if you won't give me XP for killing monsters, but are going to fill the game with trash combat, then do this: instead of xp until i'm 100% in the bestiary, make it so every time i kill a certain amount of monster X, i get a bonus damage against them, because i "know" them better and i know their weaknesses and tactics and weak points etc. So by the time i have to kill the millionth xaurip, at least they'll go down with two hits and i can move on.

That would give a valuable and unique incentive to seek violent solutions in quests. PoE's design philosophy is based around combat being an optional solution to a problem, not a no-brainer.

Bzzzt. The ability to spend less time on trash combats is not an incentive to do more trash combats. No matter how much of a bonus you get against your next xaurip, it's still a net loss of time and energy to kill the current xaurip.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Sawyer did implement it. In Fallout: New Vegas.

Damn, then why did he go with a half-assed crap like Bestiary XP in PoE? It was such an obvious and cheap move to shut up no-combat XP complainers. Throw them a bone patronizing bullshit.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

That would give a valuable and unique incentive to seek violent solutions in quests. PoE's design philosophy is based around combat being an optional solution to a problem, not a no-brainer.

Then why can't I talk the end-boss into suicide?

 

[Carrion]

You are just making up a problem that can be easily solved by adding a bit of reactivity. Lets say you clear the dungeon by killing its master, but you stealthed it tru all the way to the end, reward? you get to the end of the dungeon and the master has no traps in place, some of his valuables are not secured under lock, you find some evidence that he otherwise would have gotten rid of, etc. You kill him and without a leader most/all of his minions go away, never to be seen again by the player. You later find out that those same monsters descended upon a village on the valley and raided it and murdered everyone.

Not exactly an "easy" solution considering that all of that has to be added in manually, and ideally for every piece of content in the game. An XP system that doesn't revolve around murdering everything is a much more elegant and practical way of encouraging the player to make genuine roleplaying choices, although it's too bad that PoE makes a bit of a mess of it. Raedric's Hold is a rare example of a quest which is genuinely improved by the lack of kill XP, as the alternative solutions (stealth, disguises, diplomacy) appear as viable or even preferable alternatives to a risky all-out assault, and there are some smaller quests where stealth is viable as well, but the vast majority of content seems to be designed with total slaughter in mind. The half-assed mechanics, like infinite stash and partial kill XP, only reinforce that kind of thinking. Every xaurip isn't necessarily free XP, but it is free money, and that usually is a good enough reason to stick it with a sword. Many dungeons do let you make a beeline for the end boss by picking a lock or two rather than having to look for a key, which is nice, but if that means that you'll miss out on 90% of the dungeon and probably some interesting content in the way, it's probably not that satisfying in the end.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Damn, then why did he go with a half-assed crap like Bestiary XP in PoE? It was such an obvious and cheap move to shut up no-combat XP complainers. Throw them a bone patronizing bullshit.

Encounters are too limited in PoE to make it worth it. Despite all the whining, there aren't that many trash mobs in the game and enemies don't respawn. It would sort of make sense for Xaurips, Shades, and Skeletons, but not much else.

 

[Scruffy]

Devs should just play around a bit more, you know? It's not even stuff that would be difficult to implement. You find a goblin village and raid it to recover some artifact.

You keep playing as normal, until, like, a month of game time later, the village you used as a base to raid the goblin village is itself raided, because some goblins escaped and warned other villages or w/e. If you're there, you can participate in the battle, but you still don't manage to save some key characters (merchants, questgivers, innkeepers, whatever). If you're not there, you hear the news in some tavern or something. The death of the villagers should affect you in more than one way (one less merchant, reputation hit, now unsolvable quests, you get summoned at the duke's palace to answer for your actions and get a huge fine, i don't know) and make other people more wary of you (oh, you're the guy who caused the death of that whole village, yeah, i don't want to put you in charge of recovering the old sword my great grandfather lost, who knows wtf you'll do).

had you sneaked in and just gotten the damn thing, thing would have been better for you now.*

etc.

choices and consequences, choices and consequences, the mantra is always true, that's what i want, not some corpses disappear from a tree...

*however, you can gather information and find out where the goblins who attacked came from, and exact revenge, etc, i mean, it's so easy to just come up with DM stuff, really...

 

[Lhynn]

Not exactly an "easy" solution considering that all of that has to be added in manually, and ideally for every piece of content in the game. An XP system that doesn't revolve around murdering everything is a much more elegant and practical way of encouraging the player to make genuine roleplaying choices, although it's too bad that PoE makes a bit of a mess of it.

No it isnt, it just makes the player not feel particularly invested with the outcome, who gives a shit, its not a hard choice, just pick whatever and lets get this over with. You are talking out of your ass if you believe otherwise. Reactivity or rewards are the two only ways to make the player care, rewards should be handled according to what the player did, your idea of giving the same reward for everything undermines the entire idea of player agency. I find it disgusting and i find you disgusting for even proposing it, practical it isnt, as show by poe, elegant? maybe, i dont care about elegant shit, i care about shit that works, in this context your proposed system doesnt.
Shit, i didnt even pay attention to quest XP in poe, who gives a shit, you lvl when sawyer says so.

Raedric's Hold is a rare example of a quest which is genuinely improved by the lack of kill XP, as the alternative solutions (stealth, disguises, diplomacy) appear as viable or even preferable alternatives to a risky all-out assault, and there are some smaller quests where stealth is viable as well, but the vast majority of content seems to be designed with total slaughter in mind.

I didnt care, it didnt make a difference, i just murdertrampled everything, ending of the quest is basically the same for the player and those he cares about, nothing matters, you dont have anything to regret or to try in a future playthrough, you didnt miss anything, even if you did, who cares, you are swimming in copper and items are shit. while level design of raedrics keep is very good, the quest in itself is shit, no one but the priest cared to ask me why i was murdering everyone and the dialogue wasnt extensive enough to allow me to explain my reasons to anyone, but who cares, its not like im playing an actual rpg, is it? Everyone kept charging at me to get murdered, it all blends together in a pool of blood and agony, who gives a shit, its over fast. I even murdered koescl or whatever that cucks name was, i didnt even knew the bastard and he thought i did it for him. Goddamn retarded.
The priest and the witch talking you into killing the other was nice i guess, i just murdered the witch because i didnt want to have one more loading screen after killing the priest, the reward didnt seem that hot to me, wasnt planing on having children, and i figured the endless lore dumps would make sure to inform me just why the fuck the hollowborn existed, i didnt need the witch, the game was too eager to tell me everything about it anyway. The priest was really grateful that i saved that kid. I probably murdered everyone he ever knew and cherished, and was covered in their blood as i talked to him, he didnt seem to mind, maybe if he got angry next time i would have tried to stealth or disguise my way there, but nope, sawyer wont deny you a quest just because it makes sense, you have to actively screw up knowing all the info for him to do so.

The half-assed mechanics, like infinite stash and partial kill XP, only reinforce that kind of thinking. Every xaurip isn't necessarily free XP, but it is free money, and that usually is a good enough reason to stick it with a sword. Many dungeons do let you make a beeline for the end boss by picking a lock or two rather than having to look for a key, which is nice, but if that means that you'll miss out on 90% of the dungeon and probably some interesting content in the way, it's probably not that satisfying in the end.

Its just easier to kill everyone and loot everything, combat is over fast, it isnt hard and hey, you are playing a game, why would you actively avoid playing the fucking game? Combat isnt THAT awful that id rather spend an extra half an hour not fighting to get a dungeon over with. Stealth was a expensive inclusion that brought next to nothing to the table.

Could you on your inevitable answer post some examples of games that successfully did away with combat xp in favor of quest? Dont just pull it out of your ass, show me something. And dont bring irrelevant examples like SSR or VtMB.

 

[Carrion]

No it isnt, it just makes the player not feel particularly invested with the outcome, who gives a shit, its not a hard choice, just pick whatever and lets get this over with. You are talking out of your ass if you believe otherwise. Reactivity or rewards are the two only ways to make the player care, rewards should be handled according to what the player did, your idea of giving the same reward for everything undermines the entire idea of player agency.

You can have different rewards for doing stuff differently even without kill XP, but there's no better way to undermine player agency than dish out the biggest amount of XP for doing things in one specific way, even if it makes zero sense in the specific situation. As a resource XP is superior to everything else, and trying to somehow balance it with in-game consequences would be a daring but ultimately hopeless endeavor.

I didnt care, it didnt make a difference, i just murdertrampled everything, ending of the quest is basically the same for the player and those he cares about, nothing matters, you dont have anything to regret or to try in a future playthrough, you didnt miss anything, even if you did, who cares, you are swimming in copper and items are shit.

Yes, you didn't care, even though in your previous post you just said that reactivity is one of the two things that makes people care, and it's only a quest that determines the future of an entire town or something. I wonder why Obsidian were so lazy, because obviously it would have been incredibly easy to implement reactivity that would make the players *care*, even in the case that the game's mechanics would heavily favor the playstyle that you already resorted to without any kind of extra incentive like kill XP. I'm also sure that you knew on your first playthrough what the consequences of this big side quest during the first few hours of the game would be and decided to just go full retard with it.

Could you on your inevitable answer post some examples of games that successfully did away with combat xp in favor of quest? Dont just pull it out of your ass, show me something. And dont bring irrelevant examples like SSR or VtMB.

Well, it seems I you mentioned the examples for me already. SRR was super linear and therefore a special case, but Bloodlines definitely fits the bill, and PoE's XP system would've definitely been better had it adopted the same approach without all of those compromises. Another obvious example is Deus Ex, which is pretty much the single best game when it comes to doing stuff in different ways (Human Revolution, on the other hand, is a cautionary tale about the dangers of combat XP). If you think those games are irrelevant and instead want me to name a really good party-based isometric cRPG with different solutions to quests and only quest XP, I'm unfortunately at a loss, although I'm not sure how that matters considering that it's equally hard to come up with examples of games where ditching combat XP completely sucked (and no, PoE doesn't cut it because Sawyer chickened out instead of going all the way).

Also note that I never even said anything about quest-only XP, so for instance use-based systems can fit the bill just as well, or systems where character development is based on training that uses time and/or money as a resource. Basically anything that doesn't always reward murder is a likely improvement if you want to encourage different playstyles.