Jim Kata
Arbiter
I actually meant to mention torches. It should either be just torches or else torches combined with a mysterious magical light artifact placed here and there that just sorta glows with no apparatus.
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The style and atmosphere
- Thread starter Vault Dweller
- Start date
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/15.jpg
Something looks amiss with the the city planning. Maybe because of the placement of the houses, which seem random, in contrast to the with the thickness and design of wall.
You should give some thought to how, and why, a city is built.
Perhaps hobble together the houses. The city wall offers protection from any outside threaths, so the space within should be considered valuable, right? So no space should be wasted. Also, most cities have a main road. Usually because they would be built along a trade route or some such. So align the houses to a grid and it would feel more natural.
Well, no big deal really. Looking forward to the game.
Something looks amiss with the the city planning. Maybe because of the placement of the houses, which seem random, in contrast to the with the thickness and design of wall.
You should give some thought to how, and why, a city is built.
Perhaps hobble together the houses. The city wall offers protection from any outside threaths, so the space within should be considered valuable, right? So no space should be wasted. Also, most cities have a main road. Usually because they would be built along a trade route or some such. So align the houses to a grid and it would feel more natural.
Well, no big deal really. Looking forward to the game.
The Rambling Sage
Scholar
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 452
Sorry about the late response.
Since as far as i see the decadence in this game is not of the purely post-apocaliptic one, a good deal of the feeling can come from pretty simple things. Like in fallout, one of the things that screamed decadence for me in that game was the use of caps as money, not for the act in itself but for the feeling of a society that lost all contact with wherever they come from. The same thing with the Vaults, that began like temporary refuges and ended being microcosm all in themselves, with the shift in consciousness making them more twisted that the mad world outside.
But enough examples. There are some ways of showing decadence through graphical means i can take from the top of my head, without knowing more about the gameworld and it's background.
One is the use of well established symbols of the gameworld completely out of place. Like the use of structures that were most important to the culture now in decadence in a way that's logical given the setting, but almost an insult to the meaning of such symbol. The problem is that decadence is mostly a subjetive consideration, and as such is deeply rooted on the world that came before the decadence. A good way i think would be to see what paralels you can find in the real world to places, symbols, archetypes, et cetera and then how would it be decadent to use them. As long as the original meanings are well exposed and are able to get the player's sympathies it would spell decadence to see them used in such a way.
Another way is through imitation. If you have some notorious styles for structures of the old world, for an example, make some newer structures show a very similar style but simpler and rougher. Emptier, like they had the idea but not the soul. Or a noble could have his house filled with works of art and artifacts that are ordered without any rhyme nor reason in what they mean, put together just because they are rare and not cheap to come by. As far as the "fluff" for the meaning of those items is made clear long before the player encounters them it should be dandy.
I am not with the "dirtier" look. After all, the roman decadence began long before the empire came crashing down. I am more for the subtler way: A world somewhat shinny that has lost it's meaning and soul. A sage keeping thousands of ancient tomes and relics but unable to separate the gold from the lead, a noble obsesed with some old ideal or philosophy and trying to express it in every room of his manor - but getting it all so blatantly wrong it hurts. The peasants using some ancient symbols in banal ways, like having a post-nuclear world where the white house's obelisk is used for posting notices of interest to the town built around it. Some commoner dressing in a way that long before held great meaning just because that is what he could salvage and thought it was cool. And think how shocked most would be if they walked into a room where a collection of busts and pictures was kept, just to find the faces of their personal idols of human history just along those who they consider an insult to the species, side with side without any understanding of what they did and what separated the formers of the later.
Like a samurai who walked in a japanophiles convention, or a knight who did so in a medieval fair, and saw how those symbols and things that he hold dearest in his heart are now the toys of people unable of understanding what they meant and that does not even try to do so.
I hope this is useful to you in any way.
Since as far as i see the decadence in this game is not of the purely post-apocaliptic one, a good deal of the feeling can come from pretty simple things. Like in fallout, one of the things that screamed decadence for me in that game was the use of caps as money, not for the act in itself but for the feeling of a society that lost all contact with wherever they come from. The same thing with the Vaults, that began like temporary refuges and ended being microcosm all in themselves, with the shift in consciousness making them more twisted that the mad world outside.
But enough examples. There are some ways of showing decadence through graphical means i can take from the top of my head, without knowing more about the gameworld and it's background.
One is the use of well established symbols of the gameworld completely out of place. Like the use of structures that were most important to the culture now in decadence in a way that's logical given the setting, but almost an insult to the meaning of such symbol. The problem is that decadence is mostly a subjetive consideration, and as such is deeply rooted on the world that came before the decadence. A good way i think would be to see what paralels you can find in the real world to places, symbols, archetypes, et cetera and then how would it be decadent to use them. As long as the original meanings are well exposed and are able to get the player's sympathies it would spell decadence to see them used in such a way.
Another way is through imitation. If you have some notorious styles for structures of the old world, for an example, make some newer structures show a very similar style but simpler and rougher. Emptier, like they had the idea but not the soul. Or a noble could have his house filled with works of art and artifacts that are ordered without any rhyme nor reason in what they mean, put together just because they are rare and not cheap to come by. As far as the "fluff" for the meaning of those items is made clear long before the player encounters them it should be dandy.
I am not with the "dirtier" look. After all, the roman decadence began long before the empire came crashing down. I am more for the subtler way: A world somewhat shinny that has lost it's meaning and soul. A sage keeping thousands of ancient tomes and relics but unable to separate the gold from the lead, a noble obsesed with some old ideal or philosophy and trying to express it in every room of his manor - but getting it all so blatantly wrong it hurts. The peasants using some ancient symbols in banal ways, like having a post-nuclear world where the white house's obelisk is used for posting notices of interest to the town built around it. Some commoner dressing in a way that long before held great meaning just because that is what he could salvage and thought it was cool. And think how shocked most would be if they walked into a room where a collection of busts and pictures was kept, just to find the faces of their personal idols of human history just along those who they consider an insult to the species, side with side without any understanding of what they did and what separated the formers of the later.
Like a samurai who walked in a japanophiles convention, or a knight who did so in a medieval fair, and saw how those symbols and things that he hold dearest in his heart are now the toys of people unable of understanding what they meant and that does not even try to do so.
I hope this is useful to you in any way.
Jim Kata
Arbiter
"works of art and artifacts that are ordered without any rhyme nor reason in what they mean, put together just because they are rare and not cheap to come by."
That is a good idea.
Actually all of these are very good ideas.
That is a good idea.
Actually all of these are very good ideas.
Too much brick and not enough marble/plaster. Romans used excessive amounts of marble compared to other cultures because it was readily available to them.
Romans have a fetisj for plastering everything white. If marble was too expensive, they plastered. Hell, they still do that. I studied Roman culture & Latin in grammar school and went on a trip to Rome, to all the historical sites. Of course we all got drunk and I got to see more of the city itself than the historical sites, but the city is just as plastered as it was two thousand years ago. The smog-infested streets stain the white plaster in a few years, and instead of cleaning, they add a new layer of paint or plaster. Romans have always done that.
So, I'd imagine, in a post-apocalyptic Ancient Rome, there would be a lot of 'peeled' plaster. This image of Prague illustrates what I mean.(Habsburgers were also fond of plastering) (http://pkazil.free.fr/prague_d319.jpg)
Now, the really ancient sites in Rome are just brick, but that's because 2000 years tend to completely wear away the plastering. I don't think your apocalypse took two thousand years.
Romans also pioneered multi-story buildings called insulae, as early as three hundred years before the fall of the republic (and start of the empire). But I don't think Torque would be very friendly to that concept.
Romans have a fetisj for plastering everything white. If marble was too expensive, they plastered. Hell, they still do that. I studied Roman culture & Latin in grammar school and went on a trip to Rome, to all the historical sites. Of course we all got drunk and I got to see more of the city itself than the historical sites, but the city is just as plastered as it was two thousand years ago. The smog-infested streets stain the white plaster in a few years, and instead of cleaning, they add a new layer of paint or plaster. Romans have always done that.
So, I'd imagine, in a post-apocalyptic Ancient Rome, there would be a lot of 'peeled' plaster. This image of Prague illustrates what I mean.(Habsburgers were also fond of plastering) (http://pkazil.free.fr/prague_d319.jpg)
Now, the really ancient sites in Rome are just brick, but that's because 2000 years tend to completely wear away the plastering. I don't think your apocalypse took two thousand years.
Romans also pioneered multi-story buildings called insulae, as early as three hundred years before the fall of the republic (and start of the empire). But I don't think Torque would be very friendly to that concept.
@MF
If you think they'd improve the style, by all means say so. Appealing to historical accuracy for its own sake doesn't make sense here. The aim isn't to create Rome, or even (I think) necessarily a Roman feel - just an effective feel which happens to draw some inspiration from Rome (amoungst other things).
Having said all that, some of the concept art (i.e. the city view with the hole) does look rather marble/plaster heavy. Whatever the case, things ought to fit well together - marble long-shots with brick close-ups seems a bit odd.
That's not to say plastering / marble are bad ideas - only that they should be used or not used on the basis of what they contribute to the overall style: not on their prevalence in Rome.galsiah said:
If you think they'd improve the style, by all means say so. Appealing to historical accuracy for its own sake doesn't make sense here. The aim isn't to create Rome, or even (I think) necessarily a Roman feel - just an effective feel which happens to draw some inspiration from Rome (amoungst other things).
Having said all that, some of the concept art (i.e. the city view with the hole) does look rather marble/plaster heavy. Whatever the case, things ought to fit well together - marble long-shots with brick close-ups seems a bit odd.
GhanBuriGhan
Erudite
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2005
- Messages
- 1,170
Not every location should be clearly post apocalyptic, I believe it is essential to create contrast between locations to achieve an overall post-apocalyptic feeling for the whole world. So maybe the barraks are just fine. Nevertheless, here are some ideas that might fit in my opinion:
-More or less obvious repairs: Maybe one wall collapsed at some point and has been rebuilt with the shoddier materials of present day?
-Makeshift additions: More space was needed from the original design, and this was again added in cheaper workmanship e.g. brick, wood?
- Faded murals on the walls, or damaged mosaic on the floor tell of bygone better times.
- Have high quality stonemasonry contrast with simple, utilitarian, present-day furniture.
- Maybe the officers quarters could be well maintained and repainted, but other areas clearly old, with cracks in the walls, damaged stucko, etc.
-More or less obvious repairs: Maybe one wall collapsed at some point and has been rebuilt with the shoddier materials of present day?
-Makeshift additions: More space was needed from the original design, and this was again added in cheaper workmanship e.g. brick, wood?
- Faded murals on the walls, or damaged mosaic on the floor tell of bygone better times.
- Have high quality stonemasonry contrast with simple, utilitarian, present-day furniture.
- Maybe the officers quarters could be well maintained and repainted, but other areas clearly old, with cracks in the walls, damaged stucko, etc.
galsiah said:
If you read carefully you'll notice I was talking about post-apocalyptic rome versus 2000-year old rome, and 'peeled plaster' versus 'nothing left but bricks'.
Right now, the atmosphere looks Roman enough, but the feeling is more 'ancient ruins' as opposed to 'relatively recent destruction and subsequent neglect'. I find it hard to convey my exact meaning, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
I was just mentioning that adding a 'peeled plaster' effect to a texture is pretty easy and might be a great addition to the overall style in certain locations.
Oh sure - I just don't think it's helpful if people (not necessarily you) get too focused on things being Roman. I'm just saying that Rome is an inspiration and possibly a guide - not something to copy without thinking.
If things were originally in marble and plaster, you're probably right with the peeled plaster thought. However, I don't see much evidence of that in the screens or writing (perhaps I'm missing some?) - apart, that is, from the concept art.
There's nothing wrong with peeled plaster, presuming that pre-fall AoD had a lot of plaster all over the place.
I agree with GBG's thoughts on contrast - where appropriate. Perhaps there'd be less of that sort of thing in the buildings of powerful factions [a few hundred years ought to be long enough to repair most things, with money/power]. I do think it'd make sense in most other areas though.
Also the idea of having buildings/areas used for purposes other than those they were built for, seems a good one. Things would probably have recovered, but they'd have adapted to new circumstances.
If things were originally in marble and plaster, you're probably right with the peeled plaster thought. However, I don't see much evidence of that in the screens or writing (perhaps I'm missing some?) - apart, that is, from the concept art.
There's nothing wrong with peeled plaster, presuming that pre-fall AoD had a lot of plaster all over the place.
I agree with GBG's thoughts on contrast - where appropriate. Perhaps there'd be less of that sort of thing in the buildings of powerful factions [a few hundred years ought to be long enough to repair most things, with money/power]. I do think it'd make sense in most other areas though.
Also the idea of having buildings/areas used for purposes other than those they were built for, seems a good one. Things would probably have recovered, but they'd have adapted to new circumstances.
Azael
Magister
What's missing for me is the same as for most people, looking at the images you don't get the sense that people live and work in these areas. There are no signs of wear, no dirt, no trash lying in the streets of the poor areas. I'm not saying that you should go and create a full scale town with everything that comes with it, this is not Caesar V afterall, but there needs to be a sense that the areas, buildings and the people populating them have a purpose and exists there for some reason other than providing a ground for quests, commerce and information for the PC. Larger towns should have monuments from the "old days" that have now lost their meaning and are either used for something else, or as a source of building material (think the Collosseum) and/or just as a landmark without any real purpose anymore.
Right now, things look too clinical and lifeless.
Right now, things look too clinical and lifeless.
PrinceofLowLight
Novice
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2006
- Messages
- 5
I think the Roman theme could be used to establish what The Rambling Sage talks about. People recognize what Greco-Roman buildings. Seeing a high-ceilinged, uncluttered space with columns and statues of gods being used as a marketplace, or a Senate chamber as a flophouse, or a big villa as an inn will go a long way to establish the feel.
spacemoose
Erudite
just thought of this - if you want to see decadence, go see the Hearst castle in california. goddamn that place is a mish-mash of crap from all styles and cultures thrown together with no thought to pattern or taste and people fawn over it like its some great monument, ugh
fizzelopeguss
Arcane
Vault Dweller said:
First thing that hit me was the walls needed plastering (better call my dad in
) it contrasts poorly with the brand new wooden flooring, there's no timber supports...so it doesn't really look like a house. Is that a victorian lantern hanging from the smithy?
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