The spiritual succession of X-Com?

[Eyestabber]

X-Com is great. One of the greatest (if not the greatest) strategy games ever made. However, I'd like to talk about the spiritual succession of X-Com. What other games you guys think that managed to follow on X-Com's footsteps AND SUCCEED? And I don't mean only games that did the very same thing (build base, hire soldiers, murder aliens, research stuff), but rather games that have been influenced by X-Com and are pretty good. I think Jagged Alliance 2 fits this bill, for example. Thoughts?

 

[Eyeball]

I'm assuming that you are excluding the more obvious ripoffs/remakes of Xcom from the discussion?

 

[Eyestabber]

You assume correctly, sir. The "after" series, for example, was pretty mediocre.

 

[Eyeball]

In which case, you pose an excellent question, and one I am not entirely sure of the answer to.

What, to me, exemplifies Xcom are several factors:

1) The oppressive atmosphere - the music is creepy, the map is really dark and you just KNOW there are horrible monstrosities with way better guns than yours hiding just out of sight.

2) The lethal gameplay - your dudes will die. Lots of them, often in pathetic and non-heroic ways. Hell, many strategies for Xcom revolve around letting cheap replaceable rookies take point and suck up all the laser fire just so your experienced marksmen can take out the aliens from way behind the lines.

3) The aforementioned lethal gameplay leading to replacability of troops. No real personality among any of them, despite the strong RPG mechanics.

4) The gear progression via research and capturing enemy gear.

5) The randomly generated battles and game world.

JA2 has point 1 (in crepitus caves) and 4 to a degree, but mercs have personalities and take more rifle shots before cacking it, unlike your unarmoured Xcom grunt, so I'm not sure if JA2 would be the closest heir.

Although it's probably just because it's popular on the 'Dex at the moment, Battle Bros is a decent medieval ripoff - soldiers are easily replacable and die a lot, the world is crawling with creepy horrors that can pretty much solo your entire squad and the battlefields are random. Gear progression and story development are still not similar, though.

 

[Eyeball]

OpenXCOM and Xenonauts.

I also like Long War.

Those are clones, not spiritual successors.

 

[Declinator]

...games that have been influenced by X-Com and are pretty good. I think Jagged Alliance 2 fits this bill, for example. Thoughts?

We had no idea that X-COM was coming. […] When it hit the streets, we were shocked; we couldn’t believe how similar a product it was

At first blush, the game is strikingly similar to Microprose’s classic X-COM: UFO Defense (1994). In fact, each game was developed without knowledge of the other, but X-COM beat JA1 to market by nine months and so has gone down in history as the originator of the turn-based tactical genre.

 

[Eyestabber]

Interesting.

Not "influenced" but still "very similar".

Any other games worth mentioning?

Oh, and I've played Battle Brothers. Excelent game, a must-buy for Xcom/JA fans.

 

[spectre]

In a sense any turn-based squad game can "claim" spiritual succession to XCOM, nowadays it's often overused as PR-speak for: it's turn based, but not the nerdy kind, it's Firaxis' Sexcum kind of fun, all modernized and totally not boring.
FFS, even the recent darling, Invisible Inc. does this.

Anyways, since you're excluding the obvious things which already have their own monster threads, well the turn based tactical with strategic layer genre is not really THAT big, know what I am saying?
Unless we're going to discuss Extraterrestrials, but let's not.

Bonus points: eyestabber and eyeball in one thread.

Anyways, not to come off as negative, Incubation was a p. good game and is often listed in one bag with xcom. Deserves a mention, but I think it's pretty well known on the codex.
I woudn't really put Shadow Watch on the same list, but it was nice game, one that's been stuck forever on my todo list.
Xcom Apocalypse is also sorta out there, often overlooked and hated, whereas once you get used to the eye cancer color palette there are some pretty nifted ideas tucked away under the surface.

As regards the After- series, while I don't disagree that they are mediocre overall, with the genre being a barren wasteland I view them as good for what they are.
They do RtwP reasonably well and aren't a buggy mess like Brigade E5/7.62.
The first game was tried to ape xcom in some respects and tried to blend in post apoc to the mix, the end result being pretty derp overall, but I kinda liked the other two.
If you forgave the repetitive and stretched out campaign, the basics were quite solid with some nice touches here and there (like mars terraforming and the narrative of non-combatants being forced to adapt to fight in the last game).

 

[agris]

Bonus points: eyestabber and eyeball in one thread.

They should get in a fight. It's like having Aerie and Viconia in the same party.

 

[Eyestabber]

Bonus points: eyestabber and eyeball in one thread.

They should get in a fight. It's like having Minsc and Edwin in the same party.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

At first blush, the game is strikingly similar to Microprose’s classic X-COM: UFO Defense (1994). In fact, each game was developed without knowledge of the other, but X-COM beat JA1 to market by nine months and so has gone down in history as the originator of the turn-based tactical genre.

Fuck this guy. Rebelstar has his ass beat way back in 1986.

Not good enough? Lazer Squad in 1988. Features turn-based tactical combat, 7 scenarios in total.

Then came UFO: Enemy Unknown/X-Com: UFO Defense. It was "merely" a refinement of a formula that had been in development for 8 YEARS, with added bells and whistles.

ALL THREE GAMES named above were made by the Gollop brothers.

Kazemi can bitch and whine all he wants, but he wasn't inventing the wheel or any of that shit, only to be beaten by someone faster than him. He was outmatched before anyone he ever met even conceived of the idea of Jagged Alliance. And the JA crew couldn't even do better than to slap Hemingway in the game as a game character.

I'm not saying JA is a bad game, but it's not an "originator" of anything. It's a damn good turn-based tactical game, but beyond that it deserves no extra praise. I'm actually quite surprised that it can be compared positively to Julian Gollop's finest hour.

JA2 is a slightly different beast and well deserving of all the praise it gets.

 

[DakaSha]

You assume correctly, sir.

Requesting ban of eyestabber

 

[Ninjerk]

You assume correctly, sir.

Requesting ban of eyestabber

It's not the first time's he's been respectful around here and I won't stand for it.

 

[Eyestabber]

Yeah, I'm respectful like that. When I was a kid my mom told me "Eyestabber (that's my real name, btw), you should always be respectful, even when dealing with horsecocksucking faggots that deserve to be beheaded, skullfucked and jizzed down their necks". So, yeah, there is that.

Seriously, though, X-Com inspired games are more interesting than my upbringing. Would you guys like to share anything about them?

EDIT: DAMN that last sentence sounded like a fucking schoolteacher. Let's try it again: you two assholes are gonna talk about fucking X-Com-inspired games or are you gonna keep on with the circlejerk/sucking each other's dick?

 

[DakaSha]

Ban eyestabber

 

[Forest Dweller]

Having played the new XCOM and liked it, I'm curious how it compares to the original. It certainly ticked off all those "features" that Eyeball listed.

 

[Declinator]

Having played the new XCOM and liked it, I'm curious how it compares to the original. It certainly ticked off all those "features" that Eyeball listed.

You should play the original and find out yourself. The new one has better graphics and a better UI but in almost everything else the original is better and often a lot better.

 

[Galdred]

Indeed, I remember developing an obsession over Laser Squad way before JA or X-Com existed as I could not find the damn game after having been hooked at a fried place (who managed to lose the floppy...).
Concerning the OP, it all depends on what X-Com represent for you :
The mix of Strategy and squad tactics? Then there won't be many other, except for the clones (JA2 would more or less qualify, as it has some kind of strategic layer).
The tension and lethality? Then Incubation(even though it is a bit too puzzly) or Chaos Gate and more recently Invisible Inc could qualify, or even neuXCOM.
So it really depends on what in X-Com you are looking for.

I myself preferred :
- Chaos Gate
- Invisible Inc
- Neu XCom : The Long War

 

[Matalarata]

The long war is gud. For a mod...
I recently finished a game using the Dynamic war option wich shortens the campaign overall and it still drags too much imho. X-com was even longer, true but it offered a much deeper gameplay and had a slew of tactical options. Even with LW niu X-com is too repetitive.
Also the mod starts to :derp: at some point, I understand how they strived for an harder game. But in later stage you sometimes get a terrible combination of small map + clustered Alien spawn (the spawning system is shit and nothing can be done unfortunately) and it's not unusual to get hundreds of combined Alien HP on screen, you have to rely on overwatch cheese and that's even more boring. Auld X-com never felt unfair, I rarely even lose a mission nowadays since I know the metagame. That tells a lot of a system that used to rape me in the old days.
In LW sometimes the RNG puts you in an unwinnable situation and you either reload or face a total kill with no option whatsoever, not even abandoning the mission.
They also went a little overboard with the MECs class system. 10 different classes for MECs, really? And 2 different chassis that need to be upgraded separately...

Still I would point any friend of mine looking for a good squad tactical game to niu X-com + LW, it's a good game overall.
/popamole

Fake edit: Also Apocalypse, it's way better than the rep it gets. It's a serious from his predecessors but once you get over that it really opens up as an interesting game. I also like the alien design of apocalypse much more than UD/TfTD, strange bio-weapons and inhuman shapes are cool.

 

[Average Manatee]

The long war is gud. For a mod...
I recently finished a game using the Dynamic war option wich shortens the campaign overall and it still drags too much imho. X-com was even longer, true but it offered a much deeper gameplay and had a slew of tactical options. Even with LW niu X-com is too repetitive.

What? Old X-Com was way shorter. I can bang through an X-Com campaign in a single day, not even a long day. LW even with the shortest options took a solid week and even that only got me to the late game where I stopped playing. Some of this is probably up to familiarity (I've got X-Com down to a science while LW requires constantly reading up on mechanics that change every other week), but I can't say that X-Com was long at all.

Also the mod starts to :derp: at some point, I understand how they strived for an harder game. But in later stage you sometimes get a terrible combination of small map + clustered Alien spawn (the spawning system is shit and nothing can be done unfortunately) and it's not unusual to get hundreds of combined Alien HP on screen, you have to rely on overwatch cheese and that's even more boring. Auld X-com never felt unfair, I rarely even lose a mission nowadays since I know the metagame. That tells a lot of a system that used to rape me in the old days.
In LW sometimes the RNG puts you in an unwinnable situation and you either reload or face a total kill with no option whatsoever, not even abandoning the mission.
They also went a little overboard with the MECs class system. 10 different classes for MECs, really? And 2 different chassis that need to be upgraded separately...

Biggest problem for me with LW is that there is no real sense of exploring the unknown. Past the early game you have so many scanners and the alien groups are all so strictly limited that you'll never be surprised or anything or need to take risks by exploring. Instead all it comes down to is a numbers optimization game with what you have vs. what the RNG decided should be at your landing site, and if you can win that then the rest of the map is just cleanup.

And yeah, the MECs are retarded.

Fake edit: Also Apocalypse, it's way better than the rep it gets. It's a serious from his predecessors but once you get over that it really opens up as an interesting game. I also like the alien design of apocalypse much more than UD/TfTD, strange bio-weapons and inhuman shapes are cool.

APOC is indeed a really neat game. It's a shame that there is no real endgame after getting toxiguns/shields. TB vs. RT does have replay value though, even if it is massively balanced in favor of RT.

 

[Matalarata]

What? Old X-Com was way shorter.

Well, yes it is now but I remember my first campaign taking months of trial and error and even the ones after where quite long-ish. Maybe I'm mistaken, I was 14-15 at the time. The last time I played x-com I breezed trough it in no time you're right.

toxiguns

Yes I agree, that's why I usually play with a no toxigun house rule. Granades are cheesy too but those tgun are just in another league. Shields are OP too but the constant micromanagement makes them feel like something you're paying for . I tried playing RT but I strongly prefer TB so I always end up doing that. Apoc is also quite long iirc? The last time I played it a couple of years ago it took me about 4 weeks but I was going semi-blind since I remembered nothing and had little time to play so maybe I dragged a lot

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Yeah, Apocalypse has some great ideas, but also some serious issues. It's also the game with the strongest connections to the old Lazer Squad games, like corp names and having androids in your squad.

Land vehicles on the city map are useless, for example, because you only need to destroy the tile underneath it to destroy the vehicle utterly.

Managing the base requires micromanagement on a scale that I didn't like.

The AI for the aliens is pretty stupid, but try raiding a human faction and watch the AI get REALLY smart all of a sudden.

Killing UFOs was best done using hoverbikes. Lots and lots of hoverbikes. Give them the plasma cannon and watch them swarm to take down almost every UFO out there.

The research tree has a choke point that many players will fail on, and that's live Micronoid Aggragates. Capturing them is an absolute bitch.

I always try to have at least one android in my squads. They don't advance in stats, but they don't care about brainsuckers either and are hard to kill.

 

[Matalarata]

You're right about veicles, totally retarded decision. There' a mod for that if I'm not mistaken. If you don't use it hoverbikes set on defensive and high altitude are the way to go. Base management is doable, I actually enjoy it but I can see why you find it tedious. Also you have a point about AI, but it's just a different set of weights, I can raid the cult without getting a scratch 90% of times.

Androids are gud during early game and I always have a couple ready, but as the games progress they lag behind. Experienced soldiers can fire at brainsuckers mid-jump and the suckers can't latch on a prone soldier. Just hit the ground when you feel there's one around (easier said than done but still the best tactic imho)

Also dat ragdoll!

 

[Average Manatee]

toxiguns

Yes I agree, that's why I usually play with a no toxigun house rule. Granades are cheesy too but those tgun are just in another league. Shields are OP too but the constant micromanagement makes them feel like something you're paying for . I tried playing RT but I strongly prefer TB so I always end up doing that. Apoc is also quite long iirc? The last time I played it a couple of years ago it took me about 4 weeks but I was going semi-blind since I remembered nothing and had little time to play so maybe I dragged a lot

Well for one thing Apoc on RT is much, much quicker than TB. Not just because of you doing things faster, but the AI seems to be much more aggressive and you can be more aggressive as well (reaction fire is OP in RT while its UP in TB, in RT you can simply camp outside a UFO with 10 prone people and win battles in minutes).

Apoc also has a fairly linear research path, from which deviating from is inefficient. You want to make advanced bio research as soon as you get the paycheck for week 2, advanced physics week 3, advanced engineering week 4, then by the end of week 5 you've got aerial superiority and can clean out the alien system. Since unlike in the original X-Com Apoc gives you most of your cash through weekly funding (early game you might get 2k from a mission, barely enough to break even on ammo costs), if you don't follow the One True Path you'll just set yourself a week behind the power curve. If you follow the path and can maintain successful missions along with successful shootdowns of every type of craft for research purposes, you fly through the game in a pretty tidy fashion.

It's definitely a bit longer though. The end game gets incredibly tedious with you needing to do like 10 missions after you've already effectively won the game.

Killing UFOs was best done using hoverbikes. Lots and lots of hoverbikes. Give them the plasma cannon and watch them swarm to take down almost every UFO out there.

IMO, Hovercars are better. You get to a point where you have 6 hoverbikes and its just as likely that the UFOs will shoot at one and hit another. Instead 3 hovercars have the same firepower, are still small targets, and they can take a hit and survive to run away and not lose your far more valuable guns until around week 4.

The research tree has a choke point that many players will fail on, and that's live Micronoid Aggragates. Capturing them is an absolute bitch.

It's not really a choke point, IIRC its only needed for the highest level of toxin, which is complete overkill. Needing to down and capture certain UFOs was a bigger choke point, since if you missed chances early it might be hard to find one and if you did it was probably among much stronger UFOs that you couldn't down.

I always try to have at least one android in my squads. They don't advance in stats, but they don't care about brainsuckers either and are hard to kill.

Give em stun guns too, this ensures they don't waste their TUs firing at enemies they can't hit and save everything for the CQC stuff. Also the best way to deal with poppers early game.

 

[Lucky]

It's already been mentioned, but I'm liking how Battle Brothers does away with base building and research, shifting focus to a singular group that you need to keep alive. It works rather well to keep the stakes high and prevents battle fatigue. The devs themselves cite X-COM as having had a tremendous impact on them, so the similarities are at least partially intentional. It's quite a different game, though. For one, the atmosphere is not as oppressive as in X-COM and the RPG aspect is more prominent.

I can't say that a true spiritual successor has been made yet, though. By that I mean a game with similar ideas that is just as good as X-COM, or even better. Even the clones aren't as good. Something like XCOM, even with Long War, never came close. Nor did Xenonauts. Openxcom is all I need right now and I'm looking forward to modders doing the same for Terror of the Deep.


Unrelated question, but does anyone know why the X-COM games aren't on GoG yet? I fortunately still have my old games, but I'd like to get a nice GoG installer for it as well.