Interview The numbers are evil: Avencast Q&A

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: Avencast

<a href=http://rpgvault.ign.com>RPG Vault</a> has posted an <a href=http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/807/807222p1.html>interview</a> with <a href=http://www.avencast.com/>Avencast</a>'s Minh Tri Do Dinh, who continues <a href=http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=18970>ranting about math and numbers</a>, which are, apparently, very uncool.
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<blockquote>Having played a fair share of action RPGs ourselves, we couldn't help but notice that oftentimes combat, in such games boils down to one thing - numbers. In a typical RPG, they're everywhere.</blockquote>It's like reading Idiocracy script.
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<blockquote>For instance, when you pick up a weapon, it tells you the exact number of ogres you get to whack before it falls apart. Open your character sheet and you'll find out that the life of your archetypal hero can be summed up in an Excel sheet. Head into combat and hitpoint values will be pitted against one another in a dazzling ballet of damage formulas and chance to hit calculations.
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All of this creates a rather divided playing experience, certainly providing tremendous fun when tinkering with character stats, distributing skill points and tweaking gear selection to mathematical perfection, but leaving - as we felt - something to be desired when it came to actual fighting.</blockquote>I have a feeling you are about to show us something better.
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<blockquote>Long story short, we wanted to create a more dynamic combat system - one that would provide heart-stopping action and throw you right into the thick of each battle... a scheme that would make you truly feel like you "are" the character and in total control of your powerful actions, instead of just reading about it from a sheet of text.
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So how could we possibly achieve this? How could we put the "action" into "action RPG?" </blockquote>Because putting more RPG in it would be like totally wrong and uncool. Anyway, tell us your great idea already.
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<blockquote>As it turned out, our quest for a better combat system took us to the <b>beat 'em up game genre</b>. ...
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Nonetheless, no matter how exciting the combat experience can be, fighting can sometimes become monotonous which is an injustice to the RPG genre.</blockquote>I strongly suspect that Minh has no fucking idea what the RPG genre is, but I'm pretty sure that with ideas like that he can become an RPG genius one day. <a href=http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=19741>Like Molyneux</a>.
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[JarlFrank]

Actually I agree with him in the fact that there are too much numbers. You could give the stats names like "underdeveloped" "good" "skillful" and so on instead of just taking numbers. Also, the concept of hitpoints is getting dull, too. Injury systems would be a lot more interesting.

But the solution that guy proposes is just... goddamnit this is just plain fucking retarted! Beat em up combat system in an RPG? He's gotta be kidding. Even first person action combat fits a lot more to an RPG than this.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

So wait....there's no choices and consequences, no numbers, and action combat? Wouldn't that mean it has next to nothing in common with an action-RPG and more in common with an action game?

 

[Erzherzog]

So instead of hitpoints being pitted against each other with equations determining the winner, they created a system where how many times you hit the button determines the winner...

I agree that combat in action RPGs is lacking, but isn't this a step backwards?

 

[sabishii]

All of this creates a rather divided playing experience, certainly providing tremendous fun when tinkering with character stats, distributing skill points and tweaking gear selection to mathematical perfection, but leaving - as we felt - something to be desired when it came to actual fighting.

I don't know, maybe some people like that sort of game and specifically don't want to play a twitch game.

It's as if they looked at Chess and said, "God, so many rules! I bet all these Chess players feel so constrained by them. Let's make it so you just throw the pieces at each other!"

 

[yns88]

The only kind of RPG I can think of where throwing out the numbers could in any way be plausible is Paranoia. Try making a video game out of that!

So...basically what this guy is insinuating is that there will still be numbers, only they'll all be in the background, so you don't even have to think about how to develop your character. Just Beat em up!

 

[PseudoIntellectual Snob]

(...) leading academy of magic (...) spells, potions, weapons (??) and melee (??) (...) a horde of demons invades the school through a dimensional portal (...) dozens of combat moves and spells (...)

Can it get more standard? It looks like Oblivion meets the NWN tutorial level. Also, i find this kind of design amusing: They are focusing on wizards, so instead of making options on wizard types and magic paths the quid of their game (making their combat system a complex dance of spells, summons, counter-spells, timing, et al) they give wizards melee weapons and combat styles. Are they afraid of innovation or something?

Having played a fair share of action RPGs ourselves, we couldn't help but notice that oftentimes combat, in such games boils down to one thing - numbers. (...) Head into combat and hitpoint values will be pitted against one another in a dazzling ballet of damage formulas and chance to hit calculations.

Agreed. Combat in RPGs sucks badly, nothing new here. Then, after this conclusion has been agreed upon, he goes and make an *ACTION* RPG. Smart move.

Even then, RPG =/= D&D. There are quite a few systems without HP, quite fewer rolls in combat, and more oriented to situational roleplaying. Ignorantia non est argumentum.

Like a martial artist honing their skills, you want to master the game you are playing

Pardon me? O.o

Someone is in dire need of a life.

As it turned out, our quest for a better combat system took us to the beat 'em up game genre (...) full control of your character's movements (...) where you run (...) where you aim (...) short-distance dodges (...) long-distance rolls (...) Basic attacks (...) advanced spells (...) button combinations

He has to be joking. They are taking inspiration from the Beat 'em up genre for a game about wizards? And also, some other guys already made such a system for a little diablo clone called Revenant. It failed. So, they are either re-inventing the weel or outright lying.

I liked the ending, though.

(...) Paranoia. Try making a video game out of that!

I second that one.

Also, maybe Changeling COULD be made with "Skill" levels opening options but almost no numbercracy, since anyway most people does away with combat and rolls in it.

 

[Noceur]

Why don't all of these jack-asses just make a plain fantasy/sci-fi action game, or fantasy/sci-fi beat-em up instead of beating around the bush?

Is there some kind of prestige about adding "RPG" to a game? I mean... obviously not, because everyone's trying to remove as many actual RPG game elements as possible in their "RPG" games.

Again, if this guy hates numbers and stats so much, perhaps he should stop and think about wether he actually wants to do RPG games or not. Hell, you can make an action-game where you get new powers and attacks over the course of the game... I didn't see Raven/Lucas Arts slapping any RPG brands on Jedi Knight (and various sequels), and it had force powers that you could purchase with points over the course of the game (you couldn't max em all out) plus Alignment (good/evil branching of the game).

Those are gameplay elements you can put in almost any game, really. Why stick "RPG" on it?
Actually, genres and genre cathegories make me sick. It's all just marketing anyway.

 

[Rei]

I like money.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I can't believe you like money too. We should hang out.

 

[Inziladun]

Wait... don't ALL games use numbers to deal with health/damage/ect.. It's just that usually RPGs are the only ones that bother to show the exact mechanics.

 

[Noceur]

Wait... don't ALL games use numbers to deal with health/damage/ect.. It's just that usually RPGs are the only ones that bother to show the exact mechanics.

Yes and yes, which - ironically - is the whole problem with Minh's Master Plan. Who the hell is this schmuck anyway?

 

[Shannow]

Well, i agree with him that most (if not all) action RPGs do not contain action. In fact they don't contain RPG either but we already know that.
I wouldn't mind playing an action RPG, BUT what he is describing is a beat them up, or maybe an action adventure. So why does he want to call it an action RPG when he clearly doesn't even want to put in the little RPG elements that other devs put into their action RPGs?

 

[dragomike]

I'm Vietnamese, this guy is Vietnamese and his intelligence disgraces our entire people.

Fucking gook. :twisted:

 

[sheek]

Why do people insist on calling the shit they like RPGs?

Fact: 98% of the population doesn't know what an rpg is

That's the whole problem. Devs want to sell... retard consumers convince each other that they like rpgs so the games they buy and play must be rpgs - and so the label sticks

Why does this happen? RPGs are supposed to be very uncool. Why would you want to say you like rpgs (when you factually don't) instead of saying you like action games with elves in them?

 

[SimpleComplexity]

This guy doesn`t seem like he get a lot of numbers from girls.

 

[Cronstadt]

Actually I agree with him in the fact that there are too much numbers. You could give the stats names like "underdeveloped" "good" "skillful" and so on instead of just taking numbers. Also, the concept of hitpoints is getting dull, too. Injury systems would be a lot more interesting.

But the solution that guy proposes is just... goddamnit this is just plain fucking retarted! Beat em up combat system in an RPG? He's gotta be kidding. Even first person action combat fits a lot more to an RPG than this.

Those "underdeveloped" and "skillfull" are going to be translated into numbers on a scale anyway. Giving the player an exact numerical value (a là Fallout), besides allowing for much better customization, also helps relating to other numerical factors in the game (armor, resistances, stats, etc etc). If you were to express all this with words instead of numbers, the overall result would be a mess and damn hard to interpret.
An injury system would be great and I'd given some thought to it myself, but I think it would be hard to implement in a game. How many times can you shoot someone in the feet before he dies?

The RPG-meets-beat'em up thing is one of the most retarded "solutions" I've heard in a while. When I make a fighter character, or a sneaky character, or a charismatic character, I don't want their ability to be dependant on whether or not I can hit my keyboard like it was fucking Tekken. Then I suppose these concerns are well beyond the scope of the game the guy is imagining, which I'll bet is pure hack'n'slash, otherwise I doubt he'd come up with such an idea. Even tactic-wise replacing planned action with thumb reflexes is just silly. I'm waiting for the day someone will crossbreed RPGs with good ol' platformers.

 

[Section8]

If this dude was actually serious about cutting away dead wood, he'd lose those two silent h's. Dickhead.

 

[yns88]

I'm waiting for the day someone will crossbreed RPGs with good ol' platformers.

Man, that actually sounds kind of cool. Imagine Castlevania 3 with non-linear progression and possibilities for stealth and diplomacy...

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Man, that actually sounds kind of cool. Imagine Castlevania 3 with non-linear progression and possibilities for stealth and diplomacy...

Well, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night already ditched part of the linear level progression by adopting a Metroid-styled degree of exploration and scavenging to advance through the gameworld. Of course, even if the RPG by the numbers element was in stealth and diplomacy were nowhere to be found. I think those would be at least interesting to see implemented.


And to stay on topic: Falolout 3, more like it.

 

[Hory]

A solution to not having numbers everywhere continuously screaming "this is a game" could be to replace them with literary equivalents (eg. "proficient", "undertrained", "bruised", etc.). Some of the tactical accuracy would be lost, but how realistic is it for the character you're roleplaying as to know precisely the numeric value of his attributes or everything he encounters? The engine should utilise numbers. People should be presented with words.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

how realistic is it for the character you're roleplaying as to know precisely the numeric value of his attributes

You mean it's not realistic for someone to know how much they weigh and can carry, what their IQ is, how much they can benchpress and so on?

or everything he encounters?

This isn't always the case, either.

 

[Koby]

Why don't all of these jack-asses just make a plain fantasy/sci-fi action game, or fantasy/sci-fi beat-em up instead of beating around the bush?

Is there some kind of prestige about adding "RPG" to a game? I mean... obviously not, because everyone's trying to remove as many actual RPG game elements as possible in their "RPG" games.

Good question, and I disagree with your answer, and I believe this is a point many here on this board fail to understand.

RPG gave to action gamers things that action games don’t have, in the minds of action gamers (and that includes oblivion fans) RPG means the game has:

* Plot – their action makes a difference beyond 'saving the world', every level/area they finish further the plot in a 'meaningful' way.
* Narrative – all the (static and linear) plots point together combined make the end game cut-scene 'feel' better, more epic, a heighten sense of accomplishment.
* Background and details - instead of just 'setting' that can be summed up by one word.

But here is the problematic point, action gamers don’t like all the reading and thinking and role-playing bullshit, they like the action but they like it in a more meaningful game world.

Classical RPGs have everything but the action. Action is the only missing ingredient in a good RPG. Compared to a run-of-the-mill action games, oblivion had a GREAT story and plot, and a rich in background and details game world.

Ask yourself, if you are an action game dev (Todd Howard), and your game feature all these wonderful things RPG has, at least to your understanding, how do you communicate that fact to you fellow action gamers? Simple, you say it is an "action-RPG".

In a discussion among action gamers, the term RPG doesn't have anything to do with role-playing, it is simply there to communicate that, again - compared to action games, a said (action) game has a great story and a rich detailed world.

So yes, RPG does have some prestige, it is used by action gamers (and that includes not only oblivion fans but most game journalists) to discriminate between a pure action game to an "action-RPG". I suggest you get used to the fact that the computer games industry interpretation and understanding of an RPG is nothing but a specific subgenre of action games.

 

[Hory]

You mean it's not realistic for someone to know how much they weigh and can carry, what their IQ is, how much they can benchpress and so on?

I guess it depends on the setting. I don't think that they had IQ measurements in medieval times (eg most RPGs), and even if they did, why not say the IQ instead of a meaningless number like "INT 18".

And if they had systems for INT and STR, did absolutely every character you play in every RPG has had every ability, skill, spell, weapon, armor, etc. measured with an appropiate system? Sure, maybe a person can determine he's charismatic, from the way others react to him, but I doubt he can know that his charisma is precisely... "16", and that according to this number he can take exactly a maximum of 'X' followers.

If a very realistic RPG system is implemented, the user doesn't have to know exactly what his limits are - he can deduce like a real character would. For example, if he's a novice with firearms, the target is far away and its body size seems small, he has a very low chance of hitting. This is more immersing than saying firearms level 3, 50 meters distance, 2-feet high target, 14% hit probability.

 

[Section8]

Why don't all of these jack-asses just make a plain fantasy/sci-fi action game, or fantasy/sci-fi beat-em up instead of beating around the bush?

Is there some kind of prestige about adding "RPG" to a game? I mean... obviously not, because everyone's trying to remove as many actual RPG game elements as possible in their "RPG" games.

Good question, and I disagree with your answer, and I believe this is a point many here on this board fail to understand.

RPG gave to action gamers things that action games don’t have, in the minds of action gamers (and that includes oblivion fans) RPG means the game has:

* Plot – their action makes a difference beyond 'saving the world', every level/area they finish further the plot in a 'meaningful' way.
* Narrative – all the (static and linear) plots point together combined make the end game cut-scene 'feel' better, more epic, a heighten sense of accomplishment.
* Background and details - instead of just 'setting' that can be summed up by one word.

Actually I think that's all immaterial too. The only bit of RPGs the games industry wants is the operant conditioning that ought to be considered the baggage that comes with dynamic character development.