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Preview The Fall Diary #2 at RPG Vault

plin

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 24, 2004
Messages
488
Spazmo said:
"It's only a game"? There's the most worthless argument possible. When you're on a site devoted to discussing games--and a site known for being really anal about it, too--it seems really stupid to me to say that it's only a game.

And no, I will not "take it easy". Carsten Strehse is an ass. I am a (amateur) journalist and I have a duty to my readers to tell them that Carsten Strehse is an ass. If they get the impression that the RPG Codex endorses the purchase of the crapfest that The Fall will doubtlessly turn out to be, I've failed at my job.

Seems like you won't get far if you use bias like that in your journalism (if you want to make it an actual job). And that's fine that you won't 'take it easy', it was just a friendly suggestion.
And it's not a worthless argument. It is, only a game, only a game that you don't want to have anything to do with no less. And really, a developer can be the biggest asshole in the world, and still make a gem of a game. Carsten being an ass doesn't have much to do with the game itself, and it's sad your trying to convince your readers to not purchase a game that isn't even out, let alone tested or reviewed.

edit: And I don't believe you do much journalism on this site. You seem more like a critic. Journalism presents news as facts without bias, personal opinion, or prejudice. You write little news tidbits then criticize what is in it with bias, personal opinion, and/or prejudice.
But it doesn't matter, it's your site, and It's a good read, so good job.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Behind you.
plin said:
Journalism presents news as facts without bias, personal opinion, or prejudice. You write little news tidbits then criticize what is in it with bias, personal opinion, and/or prejudice.

Since when?

But yeah, I like a bit of commentary in the news. It gives it a personal touch. I've been adding commentary to my news since my days at Vault13.net a little over three years ago. Some people like it, some don't. Some don't like it all the time or don't like certain things said, but it makes for more interesting conversations.
 

Human Shield

Augur
Joined
Sep 7, 2003
Messages
2,027
Location
VA, USA
The mentioning of Fallout annoys me a bit, mostly because I have a feeling their real-time squad combat will be shit and the developer ignoring many positive traits of Fallout and just throwing the name around.
 

plin

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 24, 2004
Messages
488
Saint_Proverbius said:
plin said:
Journalism presents news as facts without bias, personal opinion, or prejudice. You write little news tidbits then criticize what is in it with bias, personal opinion, and/or prejudice.

Since when?

But yeah, I like a bit of commentary in the news. It gives it a personal touch. I've been adding commentary to my news since my days at Vault13.net a little over three years ago. Some people like it, some don't. Some don't like it all the time or don't like certain things said, but it makes for more interesting conversations.

Yeah, it's great, and I like reading it too. I wasn't trying to slam this site, just that over reaction. My apologies if I offended anyone.
 

fnordcircle

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 6, 2004
Messages
693
Location
Frowning at my monitor as I read your dumb post.
Spazmo said:
You, see, moron,

Moron? Moi? This has to be a typo.

the thing is that independent of Carsten's disgusting efforts at hyping The Fall, it independently looks like shit.

I think the graphics look fine.

or Chrissake, Silver Style are the assholes behind Gorasul and Soldiers of Anarchy, which are two really shitty games that tanked HARD.
If past failures prevented someone from eventually being successful, we wouldn't have ever gotten in the air. The fuck does a past game have to do with a completely new project anyways? As an indicator? Yes, but that's it. Certainly not an indictment.

Is it any wonder that Carsten can't find a publisher for this shitfest? Granted, he's suckered some poor companies into putting it on store shelves in Russia (not that legitimate Russian sales actually matter... or exist) and France, but he's self-publishing in Germany and hasn't found anyone silly enough to touch his game for North America--that'd be the market that actually matters.

Gothic II took forever to get into the states because of their problems getting a publisher stateside. Yet, somehow, that game was a really great product.

If anything with the way the games market is today, their having trouble finding a publisher could be an indicator that they are doing something RIGHT. Anyways, by your publisher logic Deus Ex 2 was the second fucking coming. Since publishers fall all over themselves for tired old rehashes.

Conclusion: The Fall is ass.

A conclusion has to be based on facts. Not your blessed fucking opinions.

Anyways, go ahead, keep on having a hard on for The Fall. It truly might be a complete piece of shit. But if it is a good game at least I'll be able to enjoy it since I'm not some Codex fanboy with a complex on a crusade because the in-crowd here says I should be.
 

Spazmo

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Nov 9, 2002
Messages
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Location
Monkey Island
fnordcircle said:
I think the graphics look fine.

Wasn't talking about the graphics. I mean that the game as a whole seems to me like it'll suck.

If past failures prevented someone from eventually being successful, we wouldn't have ever gotten in the air. The fuck does a past game have to do with a completely new project anyways? As an indicator? Yes, but that's it. Certainly not an indictment.

Right. Well, let's continue your metaphor with flight. There were tons of failed flying machines, right? Tell me, did any of the guys whose wacky flying machines failed eventually make it? No, that was the Wright Brothers. I'm not saying that the Wright Brothers got it right the first time around, but when a guy comes to me with a proposed flying machine that's essentially works the same way as any number of other failed flying machines except it's got the same rudder stick as one machine that damn well soared, I'm going to be skeptical. Similarly, when Carsten talks about his game that's gonna have roughly the same crap combat mechanics as a bunch of other RPGs that were bad and exactly the same crap combat mechanics as his own previous game which was total ass (TF combat ought to be pretty similar to SoA combat, what with them using the same damn engine) and then says "But wait--we've got perks, just like Fallout!", I'm not going to go for it.

Gothic II took forever to get into the states because of their problems getting a publisher stateside. Yet, somehow, that game was a really great product.

Oh really? Then how come Gothic II wasn't self-published in Germany like the Fall will be? If I recall, JoWood quite happily published it in Germany. So why can't The Fall get anyone to publish it outside of Russia and France?

If anything with the way the games market is today, their having trouble finding a publisher could be an indicator that they are doing something RIGHT. Anyways, by your publisher logic Deus Ex 2 was the second fucking coming. Since publishers fall all over themselves for tired old rehashes.

No, by my logic, publishers know how bad Soldiers of Anarchy sold (which is very, very badly, FYI) and they also know that The Fall is going to be a whole fucking lot like Soldiers of Anarchy. And hell, they also know that Fallout, the game The Fall claims to try to emulate so damn much, didn't sell much either, nor did any of the game after it.

Anyways, go ahead, keep on having a hard on for The Fall. It truly might be a complete piece of shit. But if it is a good game at least I'll be able to enjoy it since I'm not some Codex fanboy with a complex on a crusade because the in-crowd here says I should be.

You go grrrl.
 

Dhruin

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 15, 2003
Messages
758
Role-Player said:
I thought stating "pretty much every one" was a somewhat easilly recognizable form of indicating a generalizing statement, different from afirmatively stating "every one"? Guess i was wrong. I'll be sure to properly use a more correct aproach in the future, then, to avoid confusions.

I wasn't trying to play semantic games so I accept your point that I've misrepresented your answer.

At any rate, having read every "official" interview/dev diary etc I just don't see Silver Style constantly saying something like "this is Fallout, only better" (not a direct quote from anyone - just an example). Yes, Fallout is often raised as an influence for the setting but I don't see what's wrong with that. I'm willing to bet I couldn't find a single post-apoc game that doesn't often refer to Fallout as an influence or inspiration and the issue is going to come up in most interviews. For that matter, I notice Sacred interviews often raise Diablo etc.

Carsten should have left the FO3 license thing alone but otherwise I think the whole thing is overstated.

Saint_Proverbius said:
I think the problem with speech skills in CRPGs is when you have to convince a developer why they are needed in the first place. If they don't get the dynamics of what makes them good in that first place, I can't see how their implimentation will be any better. Basically, if you don't have the design foresight to understand why that feature is good, I doubt you'll have the foresight in the implimentation of that design either. Fallout had one isn't a good reason to impliment a speech skill, and given that it was only recently added because of fan demand, I question how well it will be implimented.

I can't argue with that logic. The speech skill has been in since before November when I wrote a preview and the game will ship around October - so nearly a year to work on it. I agree they should have seen the need for Speech in the beginning but at least they had a Charisma effect on dialogues all along. Before someone points out it's completely different - I agree. But at least they had something in mind. How many RPGs have we played with no dialogue/reactions modifiers at all?

Spazmo said:
...it independently looks like shit. For Chrissake, Silver Style are the assholes behind Gorasul and Soldiers of Anarchy, which are two really shitty games that tanked HARD.

It doesn't look like shit to me. I think it has a number of interesting features, some I wish were different and some things they've got wrong - but it's worth a look for me. I'm sick of fantasy settings and there just aren't enough RPGs coming out these days. NPC schedules and other "world simulation" features look interesting. They may stuff it up - hell - they'll probably stuff it up but there's precious few other CRPGs on the horizon that look better. And just maybe, they'll get more right than wrong.

Gorasul was at least partly screwed over by JoWood. Probably doesn't explain all its problems just as Atari doesn't explain why ToEE had some of the worst dialogue I've ever read. I still enjoyed ToEE (and Arcanum) despite obvious faults and poor sales. SoA looked OK to me but I only played the demo. Perhaps SSE's history indicates a likely failure but I'll wait to see the final product just like I'll wait to see Metalheart even though I hated Pirates of the Caribbean.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Dhruin said:
I can't argue with that logic. The speech skill has been in since before November when I wrote a preview and the game will ship around October - so nearly a year to work on it. I agree they should have seen the need for Speech in the beginning but at least they had a Charisma effect on dialogues all along. Before someone points out it's completely different - I agree. But at least they had something in mind. How many RPGs have we played with no dialogue/reactions modifiers at all?

I would argue how important that skill will be when you consider before it was just a few charisma modifiers floating around. A lot of CRPGs have had Charisma or other attribute modified dialogue, but there wasn't much in the way of usefulness for it beyond getting a few snippets of info or the like.

When you consider one of the features of the game is "Map Wide Battles", you have to kind of wonder about how important a speech skill would be as well.

I'm willing to give The Fall a bit of a chance here, but there are a number of red flags surrounding this title.

They may stuff it up - hell - they'll probably stuff it up but there's precious few other CRPGs on the horizon that look better. And just maybe, they'll get more right than wrong.

This is RPG Codex, you can use stronger language. ;)
 

Diogo Ribeiro

Erudite
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
5,706
Location
Lisboa, Portugal
Dhruin said:
I wasn't trying to play semantic games so I accept your point that I've misrepresented your answer.

At any rate, having read every "official" interview/dev diary etc I just don't see Silver Style constantly saying something like "this is Fallout, only better" (not a direct quote from anyone - just an example). Yes, Fallout is often raised as an influence for the setting but I don't see what's wrong with that. I'm willing to bet I couldn't find a single post-apoc game that doesn't often refer to Fallout as an influence or inspiration and the issue is going to come up in most interviews. For that matter, I notice Sacred interviews often raise Diablo etc.

Carsten should have left the FO3 license thing alone but otherwise I think the whole thing is overstated.

Using a game as an example of a company's current work isn't necessarily bad. Like i said, it's easier to say it's like Fallout, or that its influenced on Fallout, then it is to say it's got X, Y, and Z features (and go into them in detail). However, what exactly did Fallout influence? Last i remember, it was the setting, skills and perks. Now, the setting wasn't pioneered by Fallout. He could've just as well dropped Wasteland's name, for that matter. Same with skills. Perks would be liable to be dismissed, as Perks aren't necessarily strict to the Fallout world, but if i recall correctly, he stated that Perks in the Fall also provide increased specialization. So, in the end, you've got a similar setting, and the concept of Perks, as the two clearer elements possible of being compared.

O'course, you could take this another direction, by just pointing at core gameplay elements that would warrant the name dropping. Your example is a good one: Sacred will likely be compared to Diablo, because gameplay aspects are largely similar in between both titles. However, in what are Fallout and The Fall comparable? Not much.

And as such, does it honestly warrant all the name dropping and comparisons, even when its not SS doing it? When you're name-dropping, you usually would have some elements with which to allure the players, but I honestly don't see many that justify it. At some point, it becomes repetitive and vacuous.

Of course, besides the Fallout name dropping, you also have the hiring of two former ex-BISers, and the story of Carsten trying to buy the Fallout franchise, which, lets face it, were all great publicity stunts. The average consumer will drool on the product for these reasons, no doubt, despite they're not indicative of anything.

Overall, yes, i'm inclined to think that yes, there might be a certain amount of over-reaction, but there's been some elements in the game's development that are damning to a degree.
 

S4ur0n27

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
382
Location
Outremont
The average gamer doesn't care about 2 old BIS employees or SSE trying to buy the FO franchise, they probably don't know about it. And hardcore fans are pissed about it. Great publicity.
 

Malraz Alizar

Novice
Joined
Jul 2, 2003
Messages
36
"One firearm skill ought to be enough for anybody.&quot

Fallout 3 was going to have 7 active skills and 7 passive skills because the SPECIAL system has 7 attributes and someone at Black Isle wanted his ducks to line up in neat little rows. Why is The Fall going to have exactly 14 skills?
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Re: "One firearm skill ought to be enough for anybody.&

Malraz Alizar said:
Fallout 3 was going to have 7 active skills and 7 passive skills because the SPECIAL system has 7 attributes and someone at Black Isle wanted his ducks to line up in neat little rows. Why is The Fall going to have exactly 14 skills?

For roughly the same reason. In The Fall, there will be seven useful skills, the combat ones, and seven useless skills, which are there to get Fallout fans to buy it thinking that SSE has good designers somewhere.
 

Anonymous

Guest
Getting flashbacks of Intelligence and Charisma in FO:T.
 

Dhruin

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 15, 2003
Messages
758
Re: "One firearm skill ought to be enough for anybody.&

Malraz Alizar said:
Fallout 3 was going to have 7 active skills and 7 passive skills because the SPECIAL system has 7 attributes and someone at Black Isle wanted his ducks to line up in neat little rows. Why is The Fall going to have exactly 14 skills?

Interesting theory. I thought everyone was explaining how The Fall only had a Speech skill because of the community backlash. So which is it - they had 13 skills and were forced to implement an unexpected 14th skill, or there were there was a deliberate attempt to mirror Fallout all along?
 

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