The Death of Immersive Sims?

[Gord]

Judging from my personal experience with the newer entries, all are games which are largely designed competently enough.
Nevertheless, neither Prey, DX: MD, nor Dishonored 2 really managed to completely grab me.
They have their own strengths and flaws (and not necessarily the same ones, although there's some overlap), but for all of them I was missing that special something that really had me wanting to continue playing.
Which is something I found coming up in various discussions over different forums (with diverse audiences behind them), so I'm apparently not the only one (which makes me wonder whether the resulting word of mouth somewhat contributed to them staying below expectations, sales-wise).
For all of them I can name at least one or two things which contributed, although it's not exclusively down to gameplay/systems - i.e. DX: MD's setting I found to be implausible in many points, while for Prey it was also down to visual design and lacking variety.
Anyway all three games gave the impression that something had not fully "clicked into place". The potential's there, but they are staying below it - with the exception of a few particularly well designed parts/levels, maybe.
I do, however, have my doubts that it comes down solely to the concessions to modern games mentioned already. Even a hypothetical "oldschool" mode would not suddenly elevate them from "good but not great" to "one of the classics of the genre".

 

[DalekFlay]

...but yeah, I'd agree with the rest of your comments. Haven't played Dishonored 2, but Mankind Divided left me disappointed in quite a few ways as someone who enjoyed Human Revolution despite its flaws, even with its improvements to gameplay. I don't think any of the more recent Immersive Sims have totally stuck the landing with the mass-market or hardcore audience, hence my comments about difficulty settings which ideally cater to both. But that's not the only aspect to their overall quality, nor certainly to the trends of gaming as a whole.

I think we largely agree on what kind of game we want, but my point was more that I don't think your suggestions would help much with the game sales, which is the core issue. Dishonored 2, played "normally" on default difficulty with powers, is a stupidly easy and straightforward game for its genre (or even in general, despite what articles like the above would have you think). I don't think there's any more streamlining you could do to the default experience so that tons more casuals buy it, and I don't think there are a million hardcore players out there who avoided it because it's too easy. Hence I'm not sure difficulty modes would help with the sales needed to stop the "is the genre dead???" talk.

Similarly while Dishonored 2, Prey and Deus Ex: MD are all flawed sequels I don't think they were flawed enough to explain all three failing, nor does it factor in that many other singleplayer mainstream games have been disappointments the last few years. It just seems like everything that isn't a massive open world franchise, or online-focused, is having a hard time selling at full price. tl;dr I think it's more about market trends than Dishonored 2's supposed complexity.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Here you go: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/06/30/dark-futures-part-2-emil-pagliarulo/

Covers Emil and his LGS/Immersive sim background's influence on FO3.

Date: June 2010
Dark futures Part 2: Emil Pagliarulo. Where now for the Immersive Sim?

Emil Pagliarulo started his career this side of the fence, writing for the venerable Adrenaline Vault. Since kicking his way into development, he worked in the twilight years of Looking Glass – where he was designer on the eternal Life Of The Party – before moving to work on Bethesda, where he was Designer on Oblivion (Think “Dark Brotherhood”) before becoming Lead Designer on Fallout 3. He’s optimistic about the future, will surprise you by how big an influence Deus Ex was on Fallout 3 and has enormous sympathy for Eidos Montreal…

Plenty more inside if you care to read. And of course much of this translates to New Vegas.

Lol the "muh emergent gameplay" overemphasis trend was alive and well even back then:

RPS: Looking at the late 00s, the two games most obviously in Deus Ex’s shadow are Bioshock and Fallout 3… which shows the breadth which this sort of covers. One of the themes I saw in the 00s was trying to work out a way to make games like this actually sell. Would that be one you’d agree with?

Emil Pagliarulo: I would. Certainly the types of games I was into. And for me, they represent the soul of Looking Glass Studios. What that means to me is these immersive first-person games which try to do more than just offer an RPG experience or do more than just offering an FPS experience. Again it’s that illusive buzzword “emergent”… which does mean something to some people, and is something to strive for. It’s a genre-busting sort of thing where you want to wrap the player in an experience – and first person is generally the best way to do that. To me, that’s what that represents.
.

I know what people mean with this "immersive sim" thing, but the name really sucks.

These games all go back to System Shock, which went back to a large degree to Ultima Underworld.

I remember very well when System Shock came out (the first one) it was a real eyebrow-raiser. There was this next generation hyperinteractive thing, with physics, remote controlled cameras and such and it really felt like a simulation.

A pity that gaming has not taken this direction. That genre has not been developed apart from the games that were based on the System Shock 2 engine, Thief, DX etc. After Looking Glass went down, there was really only Bloodlines that revived that feeling a little, but it was already technically several steps aways from System Shock and more storyfaglike.

People today should not just copy games that came out in 1995. If someone would build such a game with todays technology it would involve programmable computers with scripting languages and entire cities with complex networks, but since the new generation of developers are barely able to script something with Unity it looks like System Shock, only worse.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Yeah, this "immersive sim" moniker should just be renamed into "Games with Level design" for clarity's sake.

 

[Nano]

Bloodlines isn't an immersive sim. Here's a reminder that games aren't immersive sims just because they're atmospheric.

 

[Dedicated_Dark]

Games with Level design

But it's more than just level design. It's games with systematic design such that solutions can be thought up by utilizing game mechanics. It's logical problem solving.

 

[anvi]

Who has played Arma3?

 

[anvi]

Jarl still clueless about gaming as ever.

 

[DalekFlay]

I've never liked the term immersive sim. If it's games that focus very much on immersion, then I do think stuff like Bethesda's games and Thief belong in there. If it's about "multiple ways to solve every encounter" then anything with a stealth/tank/traps/whatever style tree could count.

People don't want to constantly say "stealth, FPS and RPG hybrid!" though, and I get that. I don't know a better name.

 

[Zombra]

Clinging onto the literal definition of the words "immersive" and "sim" is as futile as "role playing". Let it go, it's a label that no longer has any intrinsic meaning.

 

[Nito]

Immersive Sim has always been a very unhelpful moniker for the genre. The main reason it's persisted is that developers, superfans and critics have brought it back every few years to describe a particular kind of systems-centric game design. I've spoken to the developer of Gloomwood, an upcoming Thief-like and immersive sim, a little bit, and even then, he, the developer he works for, and most of the people who orbit that, debate constantly about the exclusiveness/inclusiveness of the definition.

I think the real question is, were immersive sims ever really alive? There have been large patches where immersive sims were more or less a dead genre: used only to refer to a small subset of Looking Glass/Irrational/Ion Storm games. We saw a little renaissance with immersive sims more recently, but maybe they'll go back into hibernation again for a while.

The problem is that these games aren't usually huge sellers, so their influence mostly comes from osmosis into other genres, because they tend to be interesting largely to people who design games (ie people who love systems) and less so to casual audiences, who might not even realize they're playing "an immersive sim". This is why marketing rarely refers to them as such, but I think the term gets dropped because it *does* appeal to a certain subset of the audience.

I think it's more productive to think of immersive sim as a philosophy towards game design (eg, the designer describing the fundamental rules for what a door is and how they work, and then giving the player agency to overcome that, as opposed to having a specific key), than as a genre to define how the game will be enjoyed (a stealth game etc)

 

[RoSoDude]

Indeed, the reason there's so much debate over the meaning of the term and what games qualify as such is because it describes a design philosophy, not a genre. Ultima Underworld is a dungeon crawler RPG set in a single interconnected game world. System Shock is a dungeon crawler FPS hybrid with the same world structure as UU but none of the NPC interaction. Thief is a mission-based stealth action game with no RPG elements, minimal shooting, and linear progression of levels. System Shock 2 is an FPS/RPG similar to its predecessor but more focused on combat and character building than exploration. Deus Ex is a stealth action/FPS/RPG where each mission can span multiple levels that you can't return to once you move on. There are barely any shared genre trappings between every one of games other than being real-time and first-person.

If you observe the design philosophy that drove Looking Glass et al (early Irrational, Ion Storm Austin, Arkane), however, you'd see a common goal to facilitate player agency through simulated systems-driven gameplay. That never changed, and every game that is to be compared with this small pantheon of titles is to be judged on that metric. How much simulated depth do the systems provide, and what agency does the player have to use them logically to solve problems and approach their goals? If you can locate some elements of the same design philosophy (whether directly inspired or not) in something like Breath of the Wild, great. I see no value in arbitrary lists of permissible elements (muh hacking minigames) or verified developers, when the guiding principles are what matter.

Spoiler

You're dead to me if you count Bioshock, is what I'm trying to say.

 

[Wunderbar]

 

[Child of Malkav]

Yeah but the term is used as if it represents a genre in order to better identify the type of games that applied this design. When you say immersive sims, everyone knows what games you're referring to. And that's in part thanks to Arkane and their moderate succeses with Arx Fatalis, Dark Messiah, Dishonored, Prey that brought back and popularized the concept and extended the fanbase which in turn allows for more people to go back and play LGS games, which started the entire thing.

 

[DalekFlay]

So let's say hypothetically you have your Steam games list separated into various genres... RPG, FPS, Stealth, whatever... where do you put Bioshock? No agenda here, genuinely curious.

 

[Child of Malkav]

So let's say hypothetically you have your Steam games list separated into various genres... RPG, FPS, Stealth, whatever... where do you put Bioshock? No agenda here, genuinely curious.

If it's an immersive sim through and through, then that's where it goes.
Question: WolfEye Studios is developing Weird West. It looks like a RTT, Desperados, Shadow Tactics game, however since it's made by Colantonio and knowing what kind of games he made it's pretty safe to assume that it too will be an imsim. That's my take anyway. For me, the design philosophy transcends genres.
For example, calling DX1 just a fps\rpg hybrid is restrictive because it ignores the systems, the interaction and the emergent gameplay.

 

[toro]

So let's say hypothetically you have your Steam games list separated into various genres... RPG, FPS, Stealth, whatever... where do you put Bioshock? No agenda here, genuinely curious.

In the trash bin.

 

[Carrion]

So let's say hypothetically you have your Steam games list separated into various genres... RPG, FPS, Stealth, whatever... where do you put Bioshock? No agenda here, genuinely curious.

FPS, or what toro said. I don't think Bioshock has enough elements from other genres to be even called a hybrid. I'd put Deus Ex and SS2 into the RPG category, by the way.

Indeed, the reason there's so much debate over the meaning of the term and what games qualify as such is because it describes a design philosophy, not a genre.

YES!

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Describing Gloomwood and Graven as immersive sims is a bit of a stretch. Other than Weird West from the venerable Raph, which looks dope, I anticipate an ocean of cheap "immersive sim" trash flooding the market (already) soon.

 

[HoboForEternity]

Describing Gloomwood and Graven as immersive sims is a bit of a stretch. Other than Weird West from the venerable Raph, which looks dope, I anticipate an ocean of cheap "immersive sim" trash flooding the market (already) soon.

well few of them might be good

 

[Jasede]

Death to people that use the word salad "immersive sim." Plebeians.

 

[catfood]

Death to people that use the word salad "immersive sim." Plebeians.

I prefer the term UULG (Ultima Underworld-like Game)

 

[Jasede]

First person adventure, fps, fps/rpg hybrid, RPG are all acceptable. I've ranted on this dozens of times but "immersive sim" doesn't mean fucking anything. Every first person game is immersive. And nothing in them is particularly simulationist. Nothing. Like, what are they a simulation of? Fucking nothing. If I take an FPS with a skill system and add 100 idiotic emails and recorded messages it magically changes genre? Fuck you.

Retarded marketing people and their stupid terms. It grates on me to see noble dexers mimic them like apes unthinkingly.

 

[Jasede]

So let's say hypothetically you have your Steam games list separated into various genres... RPG, FPS, Stealth, whatever... where do you put Bioshock? No agenda here, genuinely curious.

If it's an immersive sim through and through, then that's where it goes.
Question: WolfEye Studios is developing Weird West. It looks like a RTT, Desperados, Shadow Tactics game, however since it's made by Colantonio and knowing what kind of games he made it's pretty safe to assume that it too will be an imsim. That's my take anyway. For me, the design philosophy transcends genres.
For example, calling DX1 just a fps\rpg hybrid is restrictive because it ignores the systems, the interaction and the emergent gameplay.

The hell is this post.
Emergent gameplay? What? Moving barrels and using grenades is 'emergent ganeplay'? What systems? The fucking rpg system which is covered by rpg hybrid? What fucking interaction? I can turn on a sink? What the fuck is wrong with you!

Stop spouting marketing words like a sack so full of shit it's pouring out of your mouth.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

First person adventure, fps, fps/rpg hybrid, RPG are all acceptable. I've ranted on this dozens of times but "immersive sim" doesn't mean fucking anything. Every first person game is immersive. And nothing in them is particularly simulationist. Nothing. Like, what are they a simulation of? Fucking nothing. If I take an FPS with a skill system and add 100 idiotic emails and recorded messages it magically changes genre? Fuck you.

Retarded marketing people and their stupid terms. It grates on me to see noble dexers mimic them like apes unthinkingly.

It used to be simply FPS/RPG hybrids. Thief was its own elegant animal. Nowadays it's more a gamut of all sorts of wild things blended together. And quite frankly I don't care about classifications as much as the devs properly communicating their design goals. And what I've seen so far in the indie scene should better be described as "halfassed sims" at best.