From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Perkel]

Just to reiterate if people didn't know Demon's approach to bonfires.

Imagine whole undead burg but shorter by 20% with upper burg also shorter 20% and no bonfires at all until you kill gargoyles. Oh and gargoyles are immortal and you can't kill them*

That is what Latria was in Demon's Souls.

*You need to first make boss vulnerable by exploring and killing random priest mob.

 

[Elthosian]

4 games later and they've never made anything as harrowing as the Anor Londo roof approach, the Tomb of the Giants, or the Forest Covenant.

There's challenging and then there's so infuriatingly frustrating that it loses its fun. I eventually got past the archers in Anor Londo by watching strategies on YouTube. I went to do an entirely different section of the game just to get that ring that makes you invisible just to get past those archers. Maybe I'm not the target audience, but I wouldn't want to play a game that's full of sections like that. I'll bet that focus groups (or maybe tracking achievements, or similar analysis) told the devs that more people would play their games if they didn't have sections like Anor Londo.

Tomb of the Giants was scary. I snuck my way very slowly through there, even after farming that glowing bug helmet. I'm fine with scary. I'm not really a fan of survival horror, but sections of a game that are scary can be fun.

If you were able to get past it after going somewhere and improving your player skills/equipment, then that means the section worked as intended. I couldn't get past them when I first played, but I didn't have to look at a strategy guide. I really enjoyed having to pull back from certain expeditions while playing DeS and DS. It reminded me of the good ol' Super Metroid experience, where the only limit to sequence breaking was how good you were at platforming and bomb jumping while dealing with environmental hazards.

Nowadays, I'm playing Elden Ring for the first time (Seamless Coop) and I always get my brother to go off the beaten path with me to fight with high-level mobs because it's very rewarding, and the loot is often nice without breaking the game. In that sense, I do feel that it recovers some of the DeS mojo despite being a much more guided and lenient experience. I probably should turn off fast-travel outside rest areas, though.

Just to reiterate if people didn't know Demon's approach to bonfires.

Imagine whole undead burg but shorter by 20% with upper burg also shorter 20% and no bonfires at all until you kill gargoyles. Oh and gargoyles are immortal and you can't kill them*

That is what Latria was in Demon's Souls.

*You need to first make boss vulnerable by exploring and killing random priest mob.

Also relevant is the fact you can visit the starting area of any of the game's 5 zones right after beating the first boss, which means an unsuspecting player could get gangbanged by rolling skeletons 3 hours into the game by visiting the Isle of Storms, they would then switch to Latria just to get paralyzed and destroyed over and over again. The unluckiest of them might have then visited the game's version of Blightown and fall off a ledge after 10 steps*. You can do that in Dark Souls, too, but the way everything is laid out in DeS you're more likely to suffer like that because the game doesn't give you any guidance about which areas you should go into first.

*now that I think about, they really weren't creative at all with Blightown and the Undead Burg, heh, good thing I waited 10 years to get started with DS

 

[Perkel]

IDK. Blightown was my favorite part of DaS. The lack of bonfire is what made it great. The fact that you couldn't just return but push through. Especially coming through the deeps. Just going down down down down.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Also relevant is the fact you can visit the starting area of any of the game's 5 zones right after beating the first boss, which means an unsuspecting player could get gangbanged by rolling skeletons 3 hours into the game by visiting the Isle of Storms, they would then switch to Latria just to get paralyzed and destroyed over and over again. The unluckiest of them might have then visited the game's version of Blightown and fall off a ledge after 10 steps*. You can do that in Dark Souls, too, but the way everything is laid out in DeS you're more likely to suffer like that because the game doesn't give you any guidance about which areas you should go into first.

In fairness to the design of Demons' Souls, players are quite likely either to proceed from the initial level into level 1-2 (Boletarian Palace - Tower Knight) or to select the next Archstone in the Nexus placing them in level 2-1 (Stonefang Tunnel - Armor Spider), either of which are fairly easy even for a low-level character.

 

[Elthosian]

IDK. Blightown was my favorite part of DaS. The lack of bonfire is what made it great. The fact that you couldn't just return but push through. Especially coming through the deeps. Just going down down down down.

Yeah, I also enjoyed Blightown, it's also a joy to try and find all the shiny items beckoning you from far away across the map. Very good level design there.

Also relevant is the fact you can visit the starting area of any of the game's 5 zones right after beating the first boss, which means an unsuspecting player could get gangbanged by rolling skeletons 3 hours into the game by visiting the Isle of Storms, they would then switch to Latria just to get paralyzed and destroyed over and over again. The unluckiest of them might have then visited the game's version of Blightown and fall off a ledge after 10 steps*. You can do that in Dark Souls, too, but the way everything is laid out in DeS you're more likely to suffer like that because the game doesn't give you any guidance about which areas you should go into first.

In fairness to the design of Demons' Souls, players are quite likely either to proceed from the initial level into level 1-2 (Boletarian Palace - Tower Knight) or to select the next Archstone in the Nexus placing them in level 2-1 (Stonefang Tunnel - Armor Spider), either of which are fairly easy even for a low-level character.

Indeed, 1-2 is the preferred path for most people, but I can see some players switching to other areas just to test the waters and ending up in the situations I mentioned. I guess only the most persistent would have kept trying after the first death, and the rest would have gone back to 1-2 or 2-1 as you point out.

 

[pakoito]

Just to reiterate if people didn't know Demon's approach to bonfires.

Imagine whole undead burg but shorter by 20% with upper burg also shorter 20% and no bonfires at all until you kill gargoyles. Oh and gargoyles are immortal and you can't kill them*

That is what Latria was in Demon's Souls.

*You need to first make boss vulnerable by exploring and killing random priest mob.

I played DeS PS3 last year after having played through the others and it wasn't that bad. It was just bad.

 

[cvv]

4 games later and they've never made anything as harrowing as the Anor Londo roof approach, the Tomb of the Giants, or the Forest Covenant.

There's challenging and then there's so infuriatingly frustrating that it loses its fun.

And the line is different for everyone.

Watched a bunch of videos of people who couldn't handle O&S. Too hard, too frustrating. Me, I've never had so much fun with a boss before or since.

Then again Ishin is a fan favourite (I think) but for me he's way over the top. Took me 6 hours to beat him first time around, over 3 hours my second run.

That's why one-size-fits-all difficulty is stupid, we all have different lines of fun.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

DS1 shits the bed after you're done with O&S. It's simply not good. I think the interconnected levels are a bit overrated, sure it feels nice, but that is also lost after you leave Sen's Fortress. The interconnected stuff is mostly there for a third of the game. It took a while but now the archers aren't a problem for me. If anything, I feel like going back to DS2 more than any other game in the trilogy.

 

[Vyadhis]

DS1 shits the bed after you're done with O&S. It's simply not good. I think the interconnected levels are a bit overrated, sure it feels nice, but that is also lost after you leave Sen's Fortress. The interconnected stuff is mostly there for a third of the game. It took a while but now the archers aren't a problem for me. If anything, I feel like going back to DS2 more than any other game in the trilogy.

That's because DS2 is a great game with tons of build and weapon variety along with lots of dlc content. Its rough around the edges, has its own bullshit, some levels are very lackluster but considering the freepass DS1 gets for its last portion DS2 gets shit on way too much.

 

[Haplo]

Interconnected levels were brilliant. And its a bloody shame they went missing in the following installments.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Interconnected levels were brilliant. And its a bloody shame they went missing in the following installments.

or the entire second half of Dark Souls 1

 

[Average Manatee]

Dark souls stays interconnected pretty well into the second half. You can't have every area be a central hub. Unfortunately it's the area quality itself that takes a nosedive

 

[Silverfish]

Unfortunately it's the area quality itself that takes a nosedive

I've always heard this, but except for Tomb of the Giants, I never saw the problem. Post-Anor Londo you get a boss rush, a no checkpoint challenge and two self-contained Demon's Souls-like areas. Good shit.

 

[---]

Unfortunately it's the area quality itself that takes a nosedive

I've always heard this, but except for Tomb of the Giants, I never saw the problem. Post-Anor Londo you get a boss rush, a no checkpoint challenge and two self-contained Demon's Souls-like areas. Good shit.

Duke's Archives are great too, but Crystal Caves? Lost Izalith? Kiln of the First Flame?

 

[cvv]

Unfortunately it's the area quality itself that takes a nosedive

I've always heard this, but except for Tomb of the Giants, I never saw the problem. Post-Anor Londo you get a boss rush, a no checkpoint challenge and two self-contained Demon's Souls-like areas. Good shit.

I like Tomb, yes it's not exactly complex but I've always loved the vibe. Man, the amount of shit in my pants on my first run... :D :D

Level quality in Souls is overall top notch, the only exceptions in my book are the Ruins and Izalith, the worst levels in any soulslikes ever.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

The crystal cave sucks ass, and it says a lot they've never brought back that kind of setpiece.

 

[Falksi]

DS1 shits the bed after you're done with O&S. It's simply not good. I think the interconnected levels are a bit overrated, sure it feels nice, but that is also lost after you leave Sen's Fortress. The interconnected stuff is mostly there for a third of the game. It took a while but now the archers aren't a problem for me. If anything, I feel like going back to DS2 more than any other game in the trilogy.

That's because DS2 is a great game with tons of build and weapon variety along with lots of dlc content. Its rough around the edges, has its own bullshit, some levels are very lackluster but considering the freepass DS1 gets for its last portion DS2 gets shit on way too much.

This is actually the issue which I have with the series on the whole - I've yet to play a Soul's game which is consistently brilliant.

My fave is DS1 for it's excellent first half, but yep the quality drops off, and the other entries all have their faults too. Bloodborne? Sorry, too drab for me, it's just a see of browns and I prefer the more weightier combat of DS anyway.

They all feel like 8/10 games, and I'd love to see someone just take their best elements and give us a full 10/10 package.

 

[perfectslumbers]

Demon's Souls is the most consistently great but almost all the bosses are "gimmick bosses," which puts a lot of people off

 

[Average Manatee]

Unfortunately it's the area quality itself that takes a nosedive

I've always heard this, but except for Tomb of the Giants, I never saw the problem. Post-Anor Londo you get a boss rush, a no checkpoint challenge and two self-contained Demon's Souls-like areas. Good shit.

Not sure whether to remind you that demon ruins and lost izilith exist or let your flawed memory exist in blissful ignorance.

Also new Londo is honestly not great. Aside from the gimmick enemies and boss it's not high quality of an area

 

[Silverfish]

Duke's Archives are great too, but Crystal Caves? Lost Izalith? Kiln of the First Flame?

The caves are fine. It's really just an extra bit tacked onto the archives. Izalith hinges entirely on whether you know about the second bonfire. I do, so I like the area. The Kiln is mechanically nothing special, but thematically dope, so I've always given it a pass.

Not sure whether to remind you that demon ruins and lost izilith exist or let your flawed memory exist in blissful ignorance.

Also new Londo is honestly not great. Aside from the gimmick enemies and boss it's not great

You don't have to remind me about the Ruins or Izalith. I'm a fan of both.

New Londo is pretty great. Unique enemies, do or die structure, cool atmosphere and a top fiver boss battle. Good framing spot t'boot.

 

[cvv]

Best in:

Dark Souls 2 - builds, PvP, NG+, armor/damage formulas, poise, itemization, upgrading, enchanting, magic, covenants, length (content)

Dark Souls 1 - level design, healing, vibe

Demon's Souls - the OG

Dark Souls 3 - bosses

Bloodborne - most consistently great, least amount of fuckups.

-------

The truth. You can object, you can argue but that's p. much all you can do about it.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Lost Izalith is the only genuinely shit area. Demon Ruins is a short, cool-looking spectacle, same as the Kiln. I like the heart-in-throat nature of the Crystal Caves, and that one too is short enough that it doesn't wear out its gimmick. The only shit thing about it is those crystals that look like they're a level surface but make you slide off to your death. New Londo is good, the atmosphere is ace and changing the entire level by draining the water is cool as fuck. Tomb of the Giants is good, another example of a well implemented gimmick. Only Izalith doesn't have any redeeming features.

 

[The_Mask]

I like the heart-in-throat nature of the Crystal Caves

My favourite area. I like how the Blue Titanite Slab is hidden.

 

[D_X]

DS1 ends after O&S. Everything after that is complete, terrible crap. Crystal Caves have a massively dumb gimmick, Duke's Archive is just pull lever to spin room while killing annoying manlets, Lost Izalith is boring as fuck with tons of copy paste same as Tombs except we forgot to pay the light bill. Literally everything after getting the Lordvessel should not exist. Kill O&S, consider game won, restart or go play something else.

Dark Souls 3 - bosses

What the fuck? DS3 bosses are absolute shit. Here fight non stop attack spamming Artorias clone #20.

 

[The_Mask]

DS1 ends after O&S.

You probably don't like it, because everything after O&S dispels "the prophecy" and the whole "you're the one" thing.